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Heroes Community > Heroes 3.5 - WoG and Beyond > Thread: HOTA vs VCMI question...
Thread: HOTA vs VCMI question... This thread is 2 pages long: 1 2 · «PREV
Galaad
Galaad

Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
posted May 09, 2018 11:01 PM

Stevie said:
It's been over 8 years and VCMI couldn't deliver a release version in that time.


Whatever that means? VCMI has been playable for years.
Latest stable release was V0.99 and there is daily builds.
____________
You need to read Meditations by Marcus Aurelius. It will calm you down. -Blizzardboy

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acidchalk
acidchalk


Promising
Known Hero
posted May 09, 2018 11:21 PM

Lol he says it like we are not all still playing heroes 3 this many years later.

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Stevie
Stevie


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
posted May 09, 2018 11:36 PM

avatar said:
There's no such thing as final release in open projects. Therefore we don't speak we're waiting for HotA final update

Warmonger said:
Planned features for the final release:

- Standalone, full and working release
- Full game options menu
- Map editor with new objects support
- Advanced AI
- Cheat-proof Multiplayer

- Anything we didn't add yet


From the VCMI thread which sets that milestone for itself. That's the release I'm talking about, not alpha, beta, test builds or who knows what else.

acidchalk said:
Lol he says it like we are not all still playing heroes 3 this many years later.


My point is that games in general lose playerbase as time goes on, especially old games like Heroes 3 that are no longer supported and have no influx of new players. I take that fact as self-evident, but maybe not to everyone.
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Guide to a Great Heroes Game
The Young Traveler

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dydzio
dydzio


Hired Hero
posted May 10, 2018 12:12 AM
Edited by dydzio at 00:17, 10 May 2018.

Hi, VCMI dev here (currently busy with RL stuff so not actively developing)

About that list of features:

Standalone, full and working release - well, not yet. Though there are less and less bugs and missing features over time. Most of them are viewable here: https://bugs.vcmi.eu/changelog_page.php

Full game options menu - high scores and some stuff are missing, more wog features = nice to have, but not priority till scripting system is done

Map editor... - done

Advanced AI - meh, there are bigger priorities than AI atm, is "heroes 4 level AI" considered "advanced"? Anyway, new contributors who joined recently are interested in adventure AI development.

Cheat-proof multiplayer - actually working multiplayer is available in recent daily builds. Our architecture allows cheat-proof multiplayer implementing, but there are many features such as simultaneous turns and mp lobby that should come first.

I hope to see VCMI 1.00 release in few months, though there are still some stuff to do before that. One is bugs coming from reworks / new features. I would be happy to see obstacle system rework and battle AI pathfinding rework included, which are work in progress features of one busy team member. Enough spoilers for now I guess

And yes, project lives fine, but more manpower would not hurt xD. I do not even wanna imagine what we could achieve with few more active developers

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necxelos
necxelos

Tavern Dweller
posted May 12, 2018 01:38 PM
Edited by necxelos at 13:41, 12 May 2018.

What Stevie said. This is basically last moment for anything Heroes 3 related to shake the earth. Next one or two years and noone will care anymore. And by noone I mean there will still be few guys interested but from statistical perspective we (Heroes 3 Fans) are already a dying breed.

And even if most people don't understand the amount of work involved in modding in general, this is not the case here. I shown above several examples of mods bigger than game itself that were still made faster than VCMI which isn't even 5% of workload involved in those examples.

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fred79
fred79


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
SCURGE OF THE H-SEA
posted May 12, 2018 05:59 PM
Edited by fred79 at 18:00, 12 May 2018.

so, you created an account just so that you could snow about people here not meeting your needs while at the same time NOT offering to help?

i'm getting the mental image of a spoiled kid in his basement, yelling up to his mother for more pizza rolls. and berating her because she didn't buy your favorite soda, but a knock-off brand. all while telling his online friends over team-speak that his mother is useless.

tell me, is that accurate? or do you need to clarify something?

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dydzio
dydzio


Hired Hero
posted May 12, 2018 06:19 PM

Slow or not, this is how H3 scene always was. It took years for HotA team to make everything their mod contains. WoG mod also took years to be made. VCMI is really productive project, if we use other H3 projects as indicators

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Gandalf196
Gandalf196


Hired Hero
posted May 12, 2018 06:40 PM

necxelos said:
What Stevie said. This is basically last moment for anything Heroes 3 related to shake the earth. Next one or two years and noone will care anymore. And by noone I mean there will still be few guys interested but from statistical perspective we (Heroes 3 Fans) are already a dying breed.



Sorry to enter this conversation rather abruptly, but that caught my attention. Why is this the last moment?

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acidchalk
acidchalk


Promising
Known Hero
posted May 12, 2018 06:43 PM
Edited by acidchalk at 18:44, 12 May 2018.

Again this guy speaks as if he has absolutely no grasp of what everything takes to make. If you are part of the "dying" breed then good riddance to your ilk. People who make things for this game still are few and scattered all over the globe. This is no VS between us as we are all we have. Unless you have something productive to contribute then please just stop posting your nonsense as you won't find many who agree with you.

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fiorin
fiorin


Adventuring Hero
ctrl + s
posted May 12, 2018 06:50 PM

necxelos said:
And by noone I mean there will still be few guys interested but from statistical perspective we (Heroes 3 Fans) are already a dying breed.


Dude, we doing those thing for us, not for win new huge playerbase.

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dydzio
dydzio


Hired Hero
posted May 13, 2018 12:58 PM

And I answered his question from first post so I hope he got what he wanted. He should visit VCMI thread though and track stuff written there since 1st january to get overview if "the project is dead" (hint: it is far from being dead)

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Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted May 13, 2018 01:46 PM

necxelos said:
I shown above several examples of mods bigger than game itself that were still made faster than VCMI which isn't even 5% of workload involved in those examples.


Nonsense. You gave examples from civilization mods adding "hundreds of creatures" while they only change textures to already existent *nif format bones. By that standard we also have 1000+ new creatures in Era - extracted 3D models from other games, at the rate of 1-2 hours/work per model. While it takes weeks to make a model from scratch; also the games you specify have already their modding kit released along with the game, while for Heroes 3, we didn't even have a tool reading graphics, we had to wait for Grayface's deftool.

Also, Skyrim - one feature/one mod, this is basically what you get from WoG, just ask. I played and also modded all the games you specified, and Heroes 3 has no reason to be jealous, it has same great quality content. Now about VCMI, it's rather special: due to lack of modding kit and modding possibilities in general, some people decided to rewrite entirely the game. At my knowledge, it was never done for old games (before 2005), some teams tried for M.A.X. and for Imperialism 2 but failed. Afaik VCMI is the only who went so far and even if they don't make it until the end, the unique effort asks for respect.

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bloodsucker
bloodsucker


Supreme Hero
posted May 13, 2018 03:12 PM

Stevie said:
It's been over 8 years and VCMI couldn't deliver a release version in that time.

I arrived late to this modding community (Era was already the tool for WoG), yet I remember to check for HotA release for years. I'm not sure how many it took for such a (comparably) small project to be finished but I know it took years and that the team, at that time was much smaller then it is today.
Now, I even tried to join the VCMI team but it would require me to return the university if I wanted to do anything of use... That project is serious programming.

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necxelos
necxelos

Tavern Dweller
posted May 13, 2018 04:21 PM

Salamandre said:
Now about VCMI, it's rather special: due to lack of modding kit and modding possibilities in general, some people decided to rewrite entirely the game.


I remember someone from HOTA team sayin in interview that they have access to heroes 3 source code. If that is possible, what's the bloody point of rewriting game from scratch?

Salamandre said:
Nonsense. You gave examples from civilization mods adding "hundreds of creatures" while they only change textures to already existent *nif format bones.


I gave example of C2C mod which doesn't just add new units. In fact new units aren't even 1% of what this mod does. They add completely new features which weren't present at all in the base game. They wrote more source code than original Civ IV makers ever did, including expansions. They also rewrote AI from scratch to be able to deal with all new mechanics. Currently Civ IV with Caveman 2 Cosmos is the most complex 4X game in existence, while clean Civ IV was just a simple 4X game with barely any complexity at all.

Salamandre said:
Also, Skyrim - one feature/one mod, this is basically what you get from WoG, just ask.


Same story as with Civ IV. Of course there are mods that add 1 feature but there are also overhaul mods that add gazzilion new features, gazzilion new custom assets (3d models, shaders, spell effects, etc.) and gazzilion new monsters.

Gandalf196 said:
Sorry to enter this conversation rather abruptly, but that caught my attention. Why is this the last moment?


Because of how small community already is. And I'm talking from a very lucky perspective as I live in Poland (and most heroes fans are from Poland, Czech, Russia), I imagine on other countries there's barely anyone to play with or talk with at the moment.

It wasn't as bad, let's say 5 years ago, so if we graph it out, I'd say in next 3-4 years there's gonna be noone left. Again "noone" as in "not enough people to even test mods properly so noone will care".

The only chance for ressurection that I see (and I strongly believe it being possible) is some major H3 related release that will get covered in media. Either VCMI + ready to use modpack of same quality and content amount as HOTA or HOTA 2.0 with new city.



P.S. I'm not trying to make anyone angry or anything. But there's need for some reality check around here if we want our beloved game to be alive and kicking again.

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Maurice
Maurice

Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
posted May 13, 2018 05:06 PM

necxelos said:
I remember someone from HOTA team sayin in interview that they have access to heroes 3 source code. If that is possible, what's the bloody point of rewriting game from scratch?


They have reverse-engineered the compiled game files (executables and data files), which is a different beast from having the source code that the original developers used to compile.

Even so, they're still stuck with most of the quirks and oddities of the old game (like data types and threshold limits of variables used), as changing those could mean a major overhaul of a lot the source code. Having access to a decompiled code doesn't mean changes to it are easy.

And at times, it might even be easier to start from scratch.

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Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted May 13, 2018 05:20 PM

not to mention that Hota went freeze mode for 5 years because they couldn't find an enough good programmer. Comparing modding for old and encrypted games as H3 to Civilization where modding is done text style is ludicrous.

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acidchalk
acidchalk


Promising
Known Hero
posted May 13, 2018 07:20 PM

His whole position on the topic is ludicrous.

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fred79
fred79


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
SCURGE OF THE H-SEA
posted May 13, 2018 09:56 PM

"moooooom! i told you i wanted mountain dew! wtf is this 'mountain lightning' snow?"

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Warmonger
Warmonger


Promising
Legendary Hero
fallen artist
posted May 13, 2018 10:20 PM
Edited by Warmonger at 22:22, 13 May 2018.

fiorin said:
necxelos said:
And by noone I mean there will still be few guys interested but from statistical perspective we (Heroes 3 Fans) are already a dying breed.


Dude, we doing those thing for us, not for win new huge playerbase.

I'm with necxelos here. There is no point for making an old game just for few nerds to play. VCMI is an ambitious project aimed at wider playerbase. In particular Linux / Android players, but also competetive players and stream watchers.
Maurice said:
necxelos said:
I remember someone from HOTA team sayin in interview that they have access to heroes 3 source code. If that is possible, what's the bloody point of rewriting game from scratch?


They have reverse-engineered the compiled game files (executables and data files), which is a different beast from having the source code that the original developers used to compile.

Even so, they're still stuck with most of the quirks and oddities of the old game (like data types and threshold limits of variables used), as changing those could mean a major overhaul of a lot the source code. Having access to a decompiled code doesn't mean changes to it are easy.

And at times, it might even be easier to start from scratch.


That's right. Released H3 code is about useless to work with, but may reveal some not-so-obvious solutions and implementations of original H3 code.
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The future of Heroes 3 is here!

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