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Heroes Community > Heroes 3.5 - WoG and Beyond > Thread: Imagine the game without Resurrection and Animate Dead
Thread: Imagine the game without Resurrection and Animate Dead This thread is 2 pages long: 1 2 · NEXT»
phoenix4ever
phoenix4ever


Supreme Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted June 08, 2018 08:47 AM
Edited by phoenix4ever at 09:17, 08 Jun 2018.

Imagine the game without Resurrection and Animate Dead

Sometimes I wonder if the game would be more fun without these spells.
When you have them (and Earth Magic in Resurrections case) you can take on the map without any real consequences as long as you have power and mana.
Now if the spells were not there, I imagine Armorer, Resistance, Tactics, Ballistics and even First Aid would be more important. Spells like Shield, Stone Skin, Cure, Weakness, Air Shield and Sacrifice would be more important and the way you play would be more important. Earth Magic would also be slightly less overpowering.
I guess it's fair enough the spells are there, even though they seem to be almost all I cast when I have learned them.
What really bothers me is the 3 heroes specialising in those spells, they already got the best from the start.

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Maurice
Maurice

Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
posted June 08, 2018 10:01 AM

Without those spells, the faction that benefits least from them to begin with will increase in relative power: Conflux. That faction is already rather strong.

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phoenix4ever
phoenix4ever


Supreme Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted June 08, 2018 10:31 AM

Yeah I guess so, but Conflux is also easily destroyed by spells, taking double damage from many spells.
The only dangerous units of Conflux are Phoenixes and Magic Elementals, the other units are destroyed very easily.

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Gandalf196
Gandalf196


Adventuring Hero
posted June 08, 2018 03:40 PM

I recently imagined that too . Especially in the scenarios with too many powerful artifacts, resurrection and summon elementals drag the battles to the point where it becomes boring, imho.
Heroes V managed to solve both this issues ressurection and raise dead reduce maximum hit points with each successive cast and only a single stack of elementals can be summoned.

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Ghost
Ghost


Supreme Hero
Therefore I am
posted June 08, 2018 04:52 PM

I played Heroes 4 without resurrection in 4 years. I never played Vampiric Touch, if I'm in life, nature or might team. And then I played Heroes 3 back. I saw the game is easy, if strong monster so I use a slow, or forgetfulness, or blind, but I save too much a mana, when if I have a water skill, so I don't use a haste, I use a teleport, I always took cheaper spell. I'm spell tactics. Ok first time I played RoE, where was the army's growth by AI, when AI grew legion from the Fear spell (4 level hidden spell). So I used too much resurrection, because I never used berserk, and force field. The most worse AI used red orb, but it's another story. I learned that easy to expert game/map doesn't need the best spell and skill. If special game/map is very hard, and then get the best spell and skill like Heroes 4: Gathering Storm. And pro player plays their spirit of skill, and spell like Heroes 4: Winds of War. If you take a earth often, you're about good i.e. a very poor! Earth isn't the best as strong against. We haven't much good player, where would be Air, but you phoenix4ever said not a resurrection, nor animate dead. I recommend you play Mystery Tour is a good game in WoG, but SoD might be very hard game. So you learn about spell and skill against resurrection or animate dead.
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OhforfSake
OhforfSake


Promising
Legendary Hero
Initiate
posted June 09, 2018 07:48 PM

To echo ghost, HoMM 4 are without those spells (I believe AA's resurrected units won't stay after battle either). It also have town portal where you can't chose the town, which is something I recall (but might wrongly so?) that you also sought some time ago?

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Zmudziak22
Zmudziak22


Famous Hero
posted June 09, 2018 07:55 PM

I would also make Town Portal work same as was on none and basic mastery. Limit to only nearest town.

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Gandalf196
Gandalf196


Adventuring Hero
posted June 09, 2018 08:17 PM

Zmudziak22 said:
I would also make Town Portal work same as was on none and basic mastery. Limit to only nearest town.


Good idea! And maybe the masteries could decrease the movement point cost or increase the maximum range of the spell (or both)

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Ghost
Ghost


Supreme Hero
Therefore I am
posted June 09, 2018 08:24 PM
Edited by Ghost at 20:34, 09 Jun 2018.

But town gate is a very powerful. If you remember that it can use the escape key just escape from battle. I use a town gate, if I'm in life, order or death. If the map is the most hard like horror trap in events, etc or you play against me. I search for scroll of town gate. I can't tell more my game way. Secret!
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bloodsucker
bloodsucker


Supreme Hero
posted June 09, 2018 09:49 PM
Edited by bloodsucker at 22:05, 09 Jun 2018.

phoenix4ever said:
Sometimes I wonder if the game would be more fun without these spells.

The problem with your imagination is it's very fertile but not that deep.
Besides turning Conflux even more overpowered then it already is, as Maurice pointed, since Ressurection/Animate dead are between the very few spells where lots of spellpower and available spellpoints really make a difference that would turn magic heroes even weaker. Same for limits in casting summon elementals.
Without these spells one would be more dependent of might primary skills and natural fighting skills (like Offense, Armourer and Archery) that almost never appear for some classes.
Not to talk about the exploits great players find to win really hard battles like here.
In summary, the game would be poorer.

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phoenix4ever
phoenix4ever


Supreme Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted June 09, 2018 11:09 PM
Edited by phoenix4ever at 23:14, 09 Jun 2018.

@Bloodsucker Actually I don't think Conflux is very good in HotA, it's the most expensive town, when it comes to buying creatures. Like I said to Maurice level 1-5 units are destroyed very easily.  What they have got left are some fast birds and some Magic Elementals which ignore all magic and attacks everything around without retaliation. Overall I don't think Conflux is that good in HotA.
Regarding Resurrection/Animate Dead you have a point about magic heroes, those might be (even) weaker without those spells.
I just feel like why do I even have Air Magic, Water Magic or Fire Magic, when I have Resurrection/Animate Dead?, only for the adventure spells, I guess. (Where Fire have none, aka is made completely useless...)

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bloodsucker
bloodsucker


Supreme Hero
posted June 10, 2018 01:11 AM
Edited by bloodsucker at 03:48, 10 Jun 2018.

Storm Elementals are quite stronger then any other level 2 unit. From all I've read both level two and three are quite good units for their level, even if in fact level 4 and specially level 5 are quite weak.
I know you don't like the new requirement for upgrade the pixies and I agree it's a bit too much for SP (specially if AI is the one needing the Magic University to upgrade their level 1) but if you watch any stream with sprites day 1, you will see how powerful they are in the hands of an expert.
That said, the only thing that makes Conflux weak is the inability to find Armageddon in their mage guild and the impossibility of resurrecting most of the army, besides that they are still a very strong faction even with all the efforts of HotA team in the sense of balancing it.
About other Magic Schools I find Clone Archangels more effective then Resurrection but I don't play even maps often. And yes, I only take Air because of the adventure spells and almost never take Fire, cause I don't like to use Berserk unless the map demands it and there is no other good reason to take it.

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Frco
Frco

Tavern Dweller
posted June 11, 2018 01:41 PM

When I play SP, I ban Resurrection, because every battle will then look the same - casting it over and over until entire army is back.

TP, Fly, DD, Resurrection/Animate dead are too strong in SP.
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phoenix4ever
phoenix4ever


Supreme Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted June 11, 2018 04:59 PM
Edited by phoenix4ever at 17:04, 11 Jun 2018.

@Frco I also nerfed TP and DD, but yes the others are too strong.
But what about Archangels and Clone?, they can still spam Resurrection this way.
I see 3 ways to solve that: 1) Ban Clone. 2) Clone can only clone up to level 6 units. (But perhaps cost less mana.) 3) Archangels lose their ability to resurrect. (But perhaps cost less gold and gems.)
I guess I prefer option 2...
What about the 3 Res/AD heroes, did you ban them as well?

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Drakon-Deus
Drakon-Deus


Legendary Hero
posted June 11, 2018 05:28 PM

I imagine that it would be more of a challenge to play without them, and maybe a spell like Sacrifice becomes more important.

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Frco
Frco

Tavern Dweller
posted June 12, 2018 03:49 PM

Using Clone on Archangels is too specific. First of all, you need to have Archangels So I am ok with this.
And no, I dont ban those heroes. Thant (thats the one with AD?) is also too specific, works for one castle only.
And Alamar and Jeddite...when I play Dungeon, I always play Gunnar and other strong heroes, so I dont use them
And I dont care about AI, AI almost never used ressurection when I played against it.
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phoenix4ever
phoenix4ever


Supreme Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted June 12, 2018 05:22 PM
Edited by phoenix4ever at 17:27, 12 Jun 2018.

Well I think Castle will be OP if standard Clone is allowed, but not Res/AD, that's just my opinion of course.
You can of course just choose not to play as Thant, Jeddite or Alamar, but since I always pick random main hero, that's not really an option for me.
I'm still considering what to do, but for some reason banning Res/AD sounds really interesting to me.

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Djangoo
Djangoo


Hired Hero
posted June 12, 2018 11:54 PM

Before removing I would try to up mana costs. I know its pretty trivial lategame, but if you are ressurecting an entire army, you might notice a nerf.

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bloodsucker
bloodsucker


Supreme Hero
posted June 13, 2018 12:49 AM
Edited by bloodsucker at 01:21, 13 Jun 2018.

Djangoo said:
Before removing I would try to up mana costs. I know its pretty trivial lategame, but if you are ressurecting an entire army, you might notice a nerf.

And don't forget to bring one Archmage...

Frco said:
When I play SP, I ban Resurrection, because every battle will then look the same - casting it over and over until entire army is back.

I feel the exact opposite, while in don't have Resurrection I have to avoid fight other players until I completely overwhelm them playing a game of hide and seek for an eternity, at least if I'm fighting several opponents. Can't risk to lose half of my army in a single battle cause I will need it later, so I need to take more creature banks, get bigger stacks of joiners with Diplomacy or whatever will make me totally overpowered, with Resurrection (and Shackles) I can take a fight against  a much stronger opponent where I lose basically every thing and then recover it, near the end of the combat. The link I provided above is a great example of how one can use it to turn the odds in his favor (not that I could ever imagine such a combination of small tricks by myself).

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Djangoo
Djangoo


Hired Hero
posted June 13, 2018 08:03 AM

Well it all depends (like all the time) on the map. In standard templates vs AI res + shackles is overpowered, in custom maps spamming res might be mandatory, true.

PVP is no problem imo, especially when new resistance is enabled.

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