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Heroes Community > Library of Enlightenment > Thread: How to balance Haste/Slow?
Thread: How to balance Haste/Slow? This thread is 2 pages long: 1 2 · NEXT»
phoenix4ever
phoenix4ever


Supreme Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted July 11, 2018 08:59 AM
Edited by phoenix4ever at 09:02, 11 Jul 2018.

How to balance Haste/Slow?

As we all know Haste and Slow are extremely powerful spells, especially for level 1 spells. They are almost as good as the level 4 spell Prayer, if not better.
So what does it take to balance these spells?, well I already doubled the mana cost at expert from 5 to 10 and Haste gives +4 instead of +5 and Slow -40% instead of -50%.
Somehow they still feel very strong though.
So I was wondering if at expert they gave +3 and -30%. (like basic effect, but on all) I would then reduce mana cost to 8. Would this seem fair?
Ideally Haste and Slow should be moved to level 3 with bigger mana cost, but I consider this impossible, as it will mess with the towns probabilities of learning spells in their Mage Guilds.

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Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted July 11, 2018 10:14 AM

in my opinion, wog opportunities were the answer, as many creatures received immunities to magic or abilities to heal themselves from crippling spells. I am always more inclined to consider adding features to fix others, instead of constantly weaken them thus make the game less exciting.

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Maurice
Maurice

Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
posted July 11, 2018 10:16 AM

The best I can see is to introduce Mass versions of those spells as separate spells and take away the Mass nature of those base spells at Expert skill. But, as you already state, this would mess up the spell distribution.

The current game doesn't allow for a Mass version to be learned separately from the base spell, once you reach a certain expertise within the relevant Spell School.

Might be worth it if HotA would implement something like that - although I immediately realise this will be controversial, as it would throw game balance pretty hard away from Might Heroes and make scenario maps unplayable as it would require a Might Hero without Wisdom to cast such a Mass spell in order to win a given battle.
____________
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phoenix4ever
phoenix4ever


Supreme Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted July 11, 2018 10:31 AM
Edited by phoenix4ever at 10:32, 11 Jul 2018.

Salamandre said:
I am always more inclined to consider adding features to fix others, instead of constantly weaken them thus make the game less exciting.

I don't consider it very exciting when Haste/Slow is all you cast for 75% of the game either. Later comes Blind, Resurrection/Animate Dead, Berserk and powerful damage spells like Meteor Shower, Chain Lightning and Implosion, which then begins to dominate the game.
And then there are just spells you never use, like Remove Obstacle, Mirth, Misfortune, Firewall (except Luna) and Land Mine.

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Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted July 11, 2018 10:41 AM

look, I played multiplayer for years and haste/slow, in that environment, are not what you're saying. The fact that you must constantly hurry and outplay another intelligence implies that you have to take risks, fight with heroes not having those spells, have minimal casualties and still spot for essential resources or artifacts. The game lasts 2-3 weeks at best and in the final battles, such spells apply to both opponents.

Then there are single maps, and if they are good, the author knows how to create challenging battles where mass slow/haste are not deciding the outcome.

Then there is normal play, against not fan-designed maps, where AI is terrible, and where you can use all flaws you describe. That game is not fun, I agree. But I never played such maps, at least not without serious mods boosting the AI. If you want to modify some of the core game, in order to get the last category gameplay satisfying, that will also affect the first two categories, where there are no such complaints. See what I mean.

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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted July 11, 2018 10:43 AM

In my opinion, Slow and Haste should work the same way, and differently than Prayer, which gives a fixed +4 for everyone.

Which means, both Haste and Slow should give a percentage gain, probably at 30 or 35% (depending on what that would actually mean for critical speeds).

Immunities and self-healing abilities for creatures is fine and all - but it's HEROES of M & M, not creatures, and what is true for Haste/Slow is true for other Earth/Air spells as well. Adding features in this case  can only mean a division of Speed and Initiative, and consequently adding two spells; Haste/Slow would be for Speed and Accelerate/Decelerate for Initiative, which means, you couldn't get BOTH further AND sooner with one spell (except maybe for Prayer).

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phoenix4ever
phoenix4ever


Supreme Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted July 11, 2018 11:01 AM
Edited by phoenix4ever at 11:03, 11 Jul 2018.

@JollyJoker Brilliant point with them giving both movement and initiative, that makes them twice as powerful. Also the fact that they counter each other also makes them strong.
The solution as you said might be to add two new spells, so there is two for movement and two for initiative, but I guess that's impossible since in HOMM3 movement and initiative is the same thing.
Another good solution, like Maurice said, would be to implement a pair of Mass Haste/Slow at level 3 and keep level 1 single target. Only problem is it messing with spell probabilities in towns.

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phe
phe


Famous Hero
Life and Freedom
posted July 11, 2018 10:03 PM

1)spells for single stack and mass version should be separated like in H2...
it makes harder to get mass version...need to build mage guild 3/4/5 or learn it somewhere on map...
we could see by this mass versions of slow and haste working or none/basic and advanced level which we don't have so far in h3...
2)spell for single stack should have area effect on advanced(+1 radius) and expert(+2)...  
3)spell cost should be dependend on stack size
-standard cost if HP<=1000
-if HP>1000: spell cost= standard cost*(1+(HP-1000)/1000)

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Drakon-Deus
Drakon-Deus


Legendary Hero
posted July 12, 2018 12:19 PM

phe said:
1)spells for single stack and mass version should be separated like in H2...
it makes harder to get mass version...need to build mage guild 3/4/5 or learn it somewhere on map...
we could see by this mass versions of slow and haste working or none/basic and advanced level which we don't have so far in h3...



I agree. It makes a lot more sense to have the mass versions separate and on higher levels.

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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted July 12, 2018 12:40 PM

Disagree. Wouldn't be H3 anymore.

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Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted July 12, 2018 12:46 PM

JollyJoker said:

Immunities and self-healing abilities for creatures is fine and all - but it's HEROES of M & M, not creatures,


Its not like creatures do not have abilities, a lot of them have. But also there is one point to remember, a vast majority of battles are vs neutral creatures, not vs others heroes (unless you play custom maps where all you do is walk from one town to another and kill heroes).

In wog there was a chinese mod, The Dragon Slaughter (2005), which worked in that direction, coding self-curing and gaining random abilities for neutrals. And for once, battles were more exciting even late game. And for sure, relying on mass slow/haste was no longer a key to win.

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orc
orc


Known Hero
posted July 12, 2018 03:08 PM

delete slow from the game.

for haste, reduce effect by 1 (also reduce speed given by prayer)

I play battle extender mode though (Wog, which make all units slower than they are)

mass slow can never ever be balanced

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phoenix4ever
phoenix4ever


Supreme Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted July 12, 2018 04:31 PM
Edited by phoenix4ever at 16:32, 12 Jul 2018.

orc said:
mass slow can never ever be balanced

I fear you might be right about this. It's the spell I cast VS neutrals the most and it does'nt matter much if it's -50%, -40% or -30%, but as a level 1 spell it is extremely strong. (So is Haste)

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Ghost
Ghost


Supreme Hero
Therefore I am
posted July 12, 2018 08:21 PM

Haste and slow aren't so strong, if you use a tactics skill My guy hates Earth, and he uses Fire with tactics skill. I've been played with him. But he don't want play to WoG, for +3 speed. His win or loss way in his raw tactics. Another guy played Earth or Air without tactics, but his strategy is standing. Do you feel so hard game?

I wait for haste, and then I crush the enemy.

In H4 mass speed and slow are extremely strong, because of large battlefield. H3 is a little battlefield. A math question! So all armies are very speed than H4.

In HotA you get a 1-2 level of immune artifact.

If slow and haste are 3 level. Bless, dispel, and cure should be also 3 level. Impossible! But create mass haste, etc, so ok. Remember that mass disrupting ray is wrong, etc The best solution you copy about H4.


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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted July 12, 2018 10:01 PM

No, the problem is that the Mass spells are not scaling correctly.

If Stone Skin gives +6 Defense to 1 unit and Mass Stone Skin gives +6 Defense for up to 7 units, then the Mass version is up to 7 times as strong, which is obviously a lot. The same is true for the other mass spells.

So if Mass Stone Skin would give +3 or +2 Def it was still 2 or 3 times better than the single spell.

Same with Mass Haste: Make it +2, and it becomes a regular, usable spell.

With that kind of scaling you can OF COURSE have Mass Disrupting Ray, but only for -2 Defense for everyone.

Of course - this also means you need to be able to pick between single and mass version.

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Ghost
Ghost


Supreme Hero
Therefore I am
posted July 12, 2018 10:42 PM

I don't like (the idea). I agree more H4 idea. But Phoenix decides what he wants to create his own mod. Remember that nowadays H3 is a really good than mod. WoG is a different story, those immune monsters, and enchanted secondary skills are awesome
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Fight MWMs - stand teach

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phoenix4ever
phoenix4ever


Supreme Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted July 12, 2018 11:00 PM
Edited by phoenix4ever at 12:26, 13 Jul 2018.

JollyJoker said:
No, the problem is that the Mass spells are not scaling correctly.

If Stone Skin gives +6 Defense to 1 unit and Mass Stone Skin gives +6 Defense for up to 7 units, then the Mass version is up to 7 times as strong, which is obviously a lot. The same is true for the other mass spells.

So if Mass Stone Skin would give +3 or +2 Def it was still 2 or 3 times better than the single spell.

Same with Mass Haste: Make it +2, and it becomes a regular, usable spell.

With that kind of scaling you can OF COURSE have Mass Disrupting Ray, but only for -2 Defense for everyone.

Of course - this also means you need to be able to pick between single and mass version.

I agree a lot with you about this.
From basic -> expert some spells become 14 times stronger!!! That's insane. The solution could be that the mass (expert) effect is actually that of the basic effect, but on all. But that would mean some spells would become pretty weak at expert, I mean would you even bother casting expert Prayer for only +2 Att, +2 Def and +2 speed? It might work for the lower level spells, especially Haste/Slow, because they are already so strong, but having Prayer, Sorrow or Counterstrike nerfed in this way would not be good imo.
But it might work for Haste/Slow, think I'm gonna test it out on those.  

Btw for anyone messing with the advanced level of spells, remember it will affect creatures such as Master Genies, Ogre Mages, Elementals, Dragonflies (and Sea Witches) as well. That's why I tried not to mess with the advanced level.

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bloodsucker
bloodsucker


Supreme Hero
posted July 13, 2018 12:37 AM
Edited by bloodsucker at 00:37, 13 Jul 2018.

Nice thread. I would love to see some comments from the official HotA crew on it, since they probably already have an idea of what they want to do with these spells on newer versions of the expansion.
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phoenix4ever
phoenix4ever


Supreme Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted July 13, 2018 08:25 AM

Thank you.
I hope they intend to balance them, but I'm not sure they will.

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NimoStar
NimoStar


Promising
Famous Hero
Modding the Unmoddable
posted July 13, 2018 09:13 AM

Haste/Slow are seriously imbalanced for sure. I would make them third level spells with a much greater cost, and fill the level 1 slot with something else.

Separating the "Mass" versions is also a good alternative, this is what H4 did and it is quite balanced.

Normal games go: You slow their army, they hasten it, repeat ad nauseam.

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