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Heroes Community > Other Side of the Monitor > Thread: "Both Sides Against the Middle"
Thread: "Both Sides Against the Middle" This thread is 9 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 · «PREV / NEXT»
Minion
Minion


Legendary Hero
posted August 31, 2018 09:37 AM
Edited by Minion at 09:53, 31 Aug 2018.

@Sal. To the previous links. President Trump said his description of some immigrants as ‘animals’ referred to MS-13 members. But his remarks came during a discussion on how to prosecute immigrants in sanctuary cities, which don’t protect gang members who committed horrific crimes.

I can grant that he meant MS-13 members, but getting a fact wrong can be confusing to others.

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JoonasTo
JoonasTo


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
What if Elvin was female?
posted August 31, 2018 03:58 PM

AlHazin said:
The map is to be taken very lightly, it has a lot of errors in it.

You understand such claims without elaboration are viewed only as spam and contribute nothing to the topic? This is not twitter, you are not limited in your characters, feel free to click on the image and follow the link to first understand what it is about, evaluate the value of it and then write a proper response, otherwise expect to get ignored by everyone except those who already agree with you.
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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted August 31, 2018 04:30 PM

So the president is a disgrace, but the media don't slam him rightly so because of that, but instead wrongly so, since they had the dark agenda to help Hillary to presidency, which didn't work out thanks to all the alert Americans who saw threw that secret master plan and voted the elephant in the china store to thwart it.

Guys - you got the president you deserve for your great efforts. Keep up the good work.

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markkur
markkur


Responsible
Legendary Hero
Once upon a time
posted August 31, 2018 04:52 PM

fred79 said:
@ markkur: that's the most obvious thing that confounds me; that people STILL actually CAN'T see how wide-spread the media control is. It's right in front of their faces EVERYWHERE, and they just listen to the media, without thinking. Thing is, i have no doubt trump is human garbage. At all. BUT would we still see this kind of uproar/backlash/level of investigating and division, if the media's planned leader had been elected?

Most CERTAINLY not.

I agree but as I explained, as the 45th president's election-process started, I wasn't the sharpest tack in the box either. Where I separate from the pack, is that I did see once I was inside the arena.<s>

For me, the key-word here is...Process. Maybe my Quality-Control work-life gave me that edge.

btw, Quite a while back I wrote an amendment to our Constitution that would remove ALL campaign contributions and the taxpayers would pay for the election process outright; instead of all the crap that happens now in our Deep-State puppet-show. Anyone can run for president but hardly anyone can afford it. Yeah right; maybe the problem starts right there?

There is another aspect that I find bonkers here in the states.

Most people that I've ever met are not exactly Saints, and what? There are no people that have money that can "turn-around and do something right for a change?" Once a pig always a pig?

Trump is trolling the media, and he does misspeak. But I do wonder, if he actually received fair media-coverage, what the scene would be like. Fyi, Chris Cuomo is CNN's wonder boy right? Look at who the hell his family are and where they have sat and sit today. Yeah, you're correct...it IS in our faces and their smug diatribes are disgusting. Reporting my be-hind.

There is another aspect of the Process that is disgusting to me and reeks of the Sewer as much as anything. Corporations and DC have joining hallways. Look at where all those "you-know-whats" went after getting fired or resigning...the Media, Book-publishers, Netflix, Banks, Armament companies, Law-offices and on and on. Lots of stinking turds floating everywhere in this Sewer. Seriously how much wasted money would we save taxpayers, if we stripped all fortunes from people that had NEVER done a day's work, but instead because of privilege either born or handed, to do nothing but suck money like leeches on taxpayers because of that privilege?

Brennan got his SC pulled? Pull all of those people's sound-bite material.

I believe a storm is coming and there is going to be a lot of people at first dumb-founded and in the end angry and upset with themselves when the real story breaks.

You know, it's hard to tear yourself away from gadgets and highs but maybe more people should consider coming-up-for-air and drying-out for a bit.


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AlHazin
AlHazin


Promising
Supreme Hero
النور
posted August 31, 2018 05:39 PM
Edited by AlHazin at 21:22, 31 Aug 2018.

JoonasTo said:
AlHazin said:
The map is to be taken very lightly, it has a lot of errors in it.

You understand such claims without elaboration are viewed only as spam and contribute nothing to the topic? This is not twitter, you are not limited in your characters, feel free to click on the image and follow the link to first understand what it is about, evaluate the value of it and then write a proper response, otherwise expect to get ignored by everyone except those who already agree with you.


lol, I could call your map spam as well. I clicked on it and read what lies beyond. I could "elaborate" and tell you how Tunisia is more secular and economically better than Algeria, and how it's not that good to live In Scandinavia compared to what the map is saying, how suicide rates are high in Japan and Sweden, and globally that it is totally ridiculous to believe the idea people like you like to spread through the internet: be atheist you'll be rich. People like you who enjoy showing maps have generally made up their opinion, they don't seek for counter arguments and I'm not here to try to convince people.

It is not religion that makes poor or atheism that makes rich, it's actually the economic condition that is likely to determine people's beliefs. To this rule, USA is your best counter example.

I also pass on your attemps to teach me how to post. Please keep your feet on the ground. I'll also let you know that I don't give a husky if I am ignored or not. You think I'm Paris Hilton or what...

"Contribute", what are we even talking about.
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Nothing of value disappears from this world, it will reappear in some shape or form ^^ - Elvin

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markkur
markkur


Responsible
Legendary Hero
Once upon a time
posted August 31, 2018 06:30 PM

Here's some entertainment. This is an example of stuff going on behind the scenes.

Systems Offline
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s26QhmmdovA

Remember two words I said in the OP...Knowledge & Intelligence.

Hmm?

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artu
artu


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
posted August 31, 2018 10:02 PM
Edited by artu at 22:09, 31 Aug 2018.

AlHazin said:
It is totally ridiculous to believe the idea people like you like to spread through the internet: be atheist you'll be rich.

You got that quite wrong and put the horse before the cart. Nobody in their right mind would claim you would get rich if you become an atheist. However, it is much more likely for people to turn out to be atheists, if they live in rich countries with democratic social values and proper education. Because in this age and with the information available to us both about the universe and our own comparative social history, if you are not indoctrinated from a very early age, it is usually extremely easy for the average person to see religions for what they really are: Myths, laws and customs of their times. This information doesn't make you rich, unfortunately, but it is easier to discover when you don't live in some theocratic oppressive regime and when your life is comfortable enough to accept it as it is.
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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted August 31, 2018 10:38 PM

artu said:
AlHazin said:
It is totally ridiculous to believe the idea people like you like to spread through the internet: be atheist you'll be rich.

You got that quite wrong and put the horse beforebehind the cart.
Sorry.

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artu
artu


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
posted August 31, 2018 10:55 PM

Lol, turns out it is before like I remember but it is to put the cart before the horse. When I hear “before” in such context, the cart before the horse sounds like it is actually the proper way. I typed in “cart before the horse” first, then thought it doesnt make sense, and edited it to “horse before the cart.” Link
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Neraus
Neraus


Promising
Legendary Hero
Pizza Nazi
posted August 31, 2018 11:34 PM

artu said:
However, it is much more likely for people to turn out to be atheists, if they live in rich countries with democratic social values and proper education. Because in this age and with the information available to us both about the universe and our own comparative social history, if you are not indoctrinated from a very early age, it is usually extremely easy for the average person to see religions for what they really are: Myths, laws and customs of their times.


The average people follow trends, the average atheist I've met was that kind of guy that didn't like getting up on Sunday mornings to go to church, then found out that "God doesn't exist" and then they start the usual barrage of misconceptions that aren't even difficult to answer.
It's not about proper education or available information, and even less about money, but rather following a trend, all the big heads of science are atheists, so if that smart guy says so, then God isn't real.
With the available information people also say that vaccines are harmful, that vegan diets are exempt from risks, that drugs are completely harmless, and some even say that the earth is flat.
I mean, apparently wiccans, pagans and satanists are a thing.

And also, I'm tired of these average educated guys stirring up crap in my country, they need to stop acting like petulant children screaming at every given occasion, it's an embarassment for everybody.
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fred79
fred79


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
SCOURGE OF THE H-SEA
posted August 31, 2018 11:40 PM

@ markkur: it's been the rich and powerful vs everyone else since forever. That complacency among their opposition(because that is what we are)has ever continued to allow them the upper hand, is why things will not change until the next revolution. I only hope it comes in my lifetime. I agree with you wholeheartedly.


@ jj, regarding your inflammatory and ignorant response to my last post: if you can't see the blatant logical reasoning behind any of the stances i take on important subject matters, ever, then i invite you to keep yourself to yourself, where my posting is concerned. You have proven time and time again, that you're not worth the time it takes to read your petty and childish irritations.

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artu
artu


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
posted September 01, 2018 12:14 AM
Edited by artu at 00:31, 01 Sep 2018.

Neraus said:
artu said:
However, it is much more likely for people to turn out to be atheists, if they live in rich countries with democratic social values and proper education. Because in this age and with the information available to us both about the universe and our own comparative social history, if you are not indoctrinated from a very early age, it is usually extremely easy for the average person to see religions for what they really are: Myths, laws and customs of their times.


The average people follow trends, the average atheist I've met was that kind of guy that didn't like getting up on Sunday mornings to go to church, then found out that "God doesn't exist" and then they start the usual barrage of misconceptions that aren't even difficult to answer.
It's not about proper education or available information, and even less about money, but rather following a trend, all the big heads of science are atheists, so if that smart guy says so, then God isn't real.
With the available information people also say that vaccines are harmful, that vegan diets are exempt from risks, that drugs are completely harmless, and some even say that the earth is flat.
I mean, apparently wiccans, pagans and satanists are a thing.

And also, I'm tired of these average educated guys stirring up crap in my country, they need to stop acting like petulant children screaming at every given occasion, it's an embarassment for everybody.

Of course, it is about proper education and available information. That doesnt mean everybody with proper education and available information will necessarily turn out atheists, some like tradition, some like the feeling of belonging religion brings, etc. But an education objective on such matters directly affects the ratio and you can easily see the pattern that in developed countries with better education non-religious people are getting more and more each decade. Most scientists are not atheists because it is a trend, they are because they evaluate a hypothesis and god (especially the Abrahamic one)  is an extremely weak hypothesis by any standard today. And there will always be people who buy into conspiracies or flat earth stuff or creationism etc etc, such misinformation in the world of internet has nothing to do with religions getting justifiably outdated. In a few centruies, they will be no different than Greek or Nordic mythology. The actual “trend” is you treating it any differently because there is absolutely no rational reason to do such a thing: None at all. As the man said, “one age’s religion is the literary entertainment of the next one.” Do not assume your religion will have a different fate other than thousands of various religions out there. It already started.

Btw, dont you think getting up early on sundays would be quite a little problem if one could actually take the possibility of eternal bliss as the reward or eternal damnation as the punishment, seriously? If a person even pauses for a second to take such tales seriously, they would not be worrying about getting up early on Sundays, you can bet on that.
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Zenofex
Zenofex


Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
posted September 01, 2018 09:32 AM

Quote:
The average people follow trends, the average atheist I've met was that kind of guy that didn't like getting up on Sunday mornings to go to church, then found out that "God doesn't exist" and then they start the usual barrage of misconceptions that aren't even difficult to answer.
If you follow your own train of thoughts, this also applies to religious people. Why being an atheist is some fashion and being, say, a Catholic, is not? You wake up on Sunday morning, find out that your life is empty and decide to go to church to socialize. Then you find out that "God exists" and start the usual barrage of misconceptions that have already been answered a thousand times. See?

The problem is, when you go back in history and start analyzing the religions scientifically, you find way too many things which do no correspond to the dogmatic postulates. Most religions consider themselves "the start" of the humanity's spiritual evolution, with only chaos or misguided paganism before them and none of them will think of itself as a product of a long, usually syncretic process (in Western terms, God does not make products out of something when he can throw it ready to the masses with his signature). Find something by Joseph Campbell on the matter, the guy explores the topic thoroughly. In history, correlation is probably the most important factor - if you want to explain why A happened, you need to take into account B, C, D, the entire alphabet a thousand times + even a degree of randomness because nothing is ever as rational, planned or well-thought out as it may seem - and religions do not need correlations because they have the answers "from above". That's where the two concepts clash and you can't reconcile them. In essence, this leads to a situation where the religion has to adapt to the findings of science to maintain its ideological influence in a rational way - and that means disposing of dogmas one by one, see your own Church's history - while science does not care about religion when it goes forward.

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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted September 01, 2018 11:39 AM

fred79 said:

@ jj, if you can't see the blatant logical reasoning behind any of the stances i take on important subject matters, ever, then i invite you to keep yourself to yourself, where my posting is concerned. You have proven time and time again, that you're not worth the time it takes to read your petty and childish irritations.
Spoken in true spirit of and kinship with your current president.

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Neraus
Neraus


Promising
Legendary Hero
Pizza Nazi
posted September 01, 2018 12:12 PM

@artu
I'm talking about the average tho, nothing about those who are actually informed and study their principles. But then what is this "proper education"? Only a smaller part of education could make you decide your religious ideas, and even then, you have some chances of retaining spirituality, depending on how you approach it. If we weed out a huge part of unrelated topics, then that means that we're not talking about an average joe anymore, not even in an education focused environment like university or college.

And if we do that, does that mean that all atheists are smart and informed? Certainly not, but I know that's not what you're saying.
I just want to let you know there is a bulk of it that...

artu said:
Btw, dont you think getting up early on sundays would be quite a little problem if one could actually take the possibility of eternal bliss as the reward or eternal damnation as the punishment, seriously? If a person even pauses for a second to take such tales seriously, they would not be worrying about getting up early on Sundays, you can bet on that.


Does exactly this, but not because they did an empirical observation of the universe, or did a metaphysical analysis of a theology, but rather heard something on the internet and figured out the universe from there.


artu said:
Do not assume your religion will have a different fate other than thousands of various religions out there. It already started.


Hey man, that's cruel, why are you reminding me that Islam will dominate the world? I want a proper Pope!

Jokes aside, I don't deny we're getting weaker, but that's negligence on the part of the clergy and because of a perversion of "coming to the people". We're more occupied in finding a way to bypass God and adapt to the world, because apparently we now want to win a popularity contest...

@Zeno

But I'm certainly not denying that, in this day and age it's taken as a given that the average religious guy is like this because his parents were religious and brought him to church. That lack of thought however can be easily applied to anyone today. My point of contention is in regards to that "information will make you an atheist" mentality that people are so fond of.

We all have our ill-informed foot soldiers, I mean, if it were for protestants, I'd probably have become an atheist too, there are two sides of the argument, but when the defending side is so weak and incompetent it's natural that one shines more.

And Catholicism went out of fashion 5 centuries ago btw, we somehow endured.
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Zenofex
Zenofex


Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
posted September 01, 2018 03:45 PM

It's not so much about the information but about forming a mentality which allows you to research it freely and draw whatever conclusions you find most appropriate without getting some sort of anathema on your head (or through your head, depending on the zeal). Nowadays this is natural, 200 years ago claiming that God doesn't exist would still earn you a social stigma and 600-700 years ago they would send you straight to the place where you can check if your claims are true. You get the picture. Ignorance exists in both camps, it certainly does, but when it comes to serious discussions between serious people, the ones defending the side of the religion typically find themselves forced to rely on "the will of the providence" arguments when they run out of rational ones. At which point the argument becomes pointless.

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markkur
markkur


Responsible
Legendary Hero
Once upon a time
posted September 01, 2018 04:24 PM

Let's keep this thread much more centered on the Processes, Politics, Candidates or Parties etc. Por favor

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markkur
markkur


Responsible
Legendary Hero
Once upon a time
posted September 01, 2018 04:42 PM

fred79 said:
@ markkur: it's been the rich and powerful vs everyone else since forever. That complacency among their opposition(because that is what we are)has ever continued to allow them the upper hand, is why things will not change until the next revolution. I only hope it comes in my lifetime. I agree with you wholeheartedly.


I had really hoped that there were some folks here, that understood, or had heard about some dark issues that have been going on around the world and apparently for some time.

But it seems we cannot get past HRC and DJT. The only shows in this town are trashing Trump or bashing Religion.

When I gave that "experience" about our past Election, it was a "system-error" for this Voter. We could change names and faces and it would not make a dimes worth of difference to me - as a ball of dough with a smiley face should indicate.

But of course had the Pillsbury dough boy been elected, by now he would have been a tiny blasted pile of black dust in the oven of the MSM and the people would be calling for more heat.

Fred, if you'd like to have a discussion about the behind the scenes...drop me an HCM. Anyone here that has an inkling about the qanon movement can do the same; just keep it short please.
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artu
artu


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
posted September 01, 2018 05:28 PM
Edited by artu at 18:34, 01 Sep 2018.

@markkur

Sure, I’ll reply to some comments directed at me and be done with it.

Btw, your posts (and links) about politics usually involve a weird mix of serious stuff, binary reductionisms and a “golden age” nostalgia when in fact, it never existed. I could have been much more critical about it but I just didnt want to be, since it was your come back post after a while. However, if you really want more participation, my advice would be -again- to use the linking tool on the left instead of just copy pasting dozens of links. Most of us use tablets and phones now and it is really hard to select or drag such links if they are not clickable.

@Neraus

Dude, it is not about “both sides” having foot soldiers, it is about how ordinary knowledge transforms. I know that the Church has some serious theologians exceptionally schooled in philosophy, history, logic and so on. But there is a limit to what you can defend no matter what your intellectual maneuver range is. For instance, even if you are as smart as Kant or Descartes, you can not speculate about the mind like they did, in the age of modern neurology. You can not even pinpoint a stage in the evolution of consciousness when biological activity becomes what a super-nature believer would call “a soul.” You can not differentiate your religion from so many others in a historical vastness of 75.000 years of worship involving exchange of myths and rituals, neither can its cosmology make the sense it used to, when the average person knows that even the galaxy is a thiny dot among trillions put aside the solar system.
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Neraus
Neraus


Promising
Legendary Hero
Pizza Nazi
posted September 01, 2018 06:45 PM

Look, I'm just talking about something that shouldn't even be surprising, why is it that saying that there is peer pressure involved in the growing number of atheists in the world is something so outlandish apparently?

Besides, I just made the jump since religion was mentioned, and that kind of claim that was made is in my opinion not in line with a broad reality but in a tighter spectrum of people, which shouldn't describe the phenomenon of growing "converts" to atheism,.

If you want to make it a discussion of the merits of the secular thought be my guest, we can go on and on about it, and how I think the contrary, but it's not something I wanted to touch upon right now and not in this thread.

Actually, I take this occasion to say that if Trump delivers and buys part of our debt, we can really start to tell the EU to go away. Thank you Trump?
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POTERE, LO SFORZO, LA PASTA

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