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Heroes Community > Other Side of the Monitor > Thread: "Both Sides Against the Middle"
Thread: "Both Sides Against the Middle" This thread is 9 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 · «PREV / NEXT»
Zenofex
Zenofex


Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
posted September 05, 2018 08:31 PM

The issue about tax havens have been brought to the public many times and the outcome is... wait for it... NOBODY CARES! People are told that the ultra-rich evade taxes for trillions in total (no kiddin'), taxes which the commoners who work for living pay to the last penny and everyone's reaction is more or less "such is life". Who's to blame?

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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted September 05, 2018 08:38 PM

Well, no. You have to see that differently. Tax Havens are small countries with small population that cater for the needs of the rich, offering low RELATIVE taxes, but making a fortune with that in relation to the relative size.

It's basically the same as earlier pirate havens. Oases. Like some hotel. It's not the only problem based on different tax rates in a worldwide economy.

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Zenofex
Zenofex


Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
posted September 05, 2018 10:39 PM

Well, no. Because every dollar not given to the host country by a rich man is a dollar taken from somebody else, usually with vastly lower income. That is, until the point when an economic crisis hits and the government starts talking about "tightening the belt" and later takes actions in that regard - which only applies to people with comparatively low income - while at the same time there are enough funds to restart the whole engine elsewhere, stolen legally on international level. As you know very well, when the whole situation becomes unbearable and the  poor can't pay for the exploits of the rich anymore, heads start rolling left and right.

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markkur
markkur


Responsible
Legendary Hero
Once upon a time
posted September 06, 2018 05:29 AM

JollyJoker said:
Well, no. You have to see that differently. Tax Havens are small countries with small population that cater for the needs of the rich, offering low RELATIVE taxes, but making a fortune with that in relation to the relative size.

It's basically the same as earlier pirate havens. Oases. Like some hotel. It's not the only problem based on different tax rates in a worldwide economy.

Yeah, true. It never did any good to vote for anyone that said they'd do something about it because no one ever did what they said they would do. (some sort of gentle-thieves agreement) So, I've not been paying much attention for quite a while but why I found Ireland interesting are two reasons.

One, as I said was centered on many years of knowing about this crap and neither party doing a thing about. However, "here in the states" the Rich were always doing the havens in exotic locations. (at least that's what the MSM said) Now, I love the green isle but it just does not work for me in quite the same visual.


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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted September 06, 2018 09:07 AM

Zenofex said:
Well, no. Because every dollar not given to the host country by a rich man is a dollar taken from somebody else, usually with vastly lower income. That is, until the point when an economic crisis hits and the government starts talking about "tightening the belt" and later takes actions in that regard - which only applies to people with comparatively low income - while at the same time there are enough funds to restart the whole engine elsewhere, stolen legally on international level. As you know very well, when the whole situation becomes unbearable and the  poor can't pay for the exploits of the rich anymore, heads start rolling left and right.

Well, that's nonsense. (See below.)
As I said, the problem is, that we live in a WORLD economy, but taxes are not universally the same everywhere (for everything). To give another example for the effect of this, Germany has a darn high tax on Cigarettes. A pack of 22 Marlboros costs 7 . In Poland a 20s pack costs less than 4 . So smuggling cigarettes from Poland to Germany is - tax evasion.
The same thing is true for income taxes in all cases where a corp or a wealthy owner lives in a low-tax country. If there is enough money, there is always the possibility to arrange everything so that the biggest part of your net profits will be taxed in a low-income tax country, like Monaco.
That would be impossible, if tax rates were equal everywhere ...

However, not only are there countries that basically LIVE OFF OF OTHERS EVADING INCOME TAXES ELSEWHERE, it's also a clash of philosophies. Basically, the high income tax countries say, the bigger your profits are, the higher the RELATIVE taxes you should pay. For example, in Germany, the first 9.000 a person (double for pairs) is income tax FREE, that is, the poor do not pay income tax at all. Everything over and above that is taxed, starting with 14% (only the income above, so when you've net earnings of 9.100 your tax is 14 ). That rate is gradually increasing the more you earn until you reach  the max tax rate of 42% for everything you earn (keep in mind, NET earnings, that is after deduction of things like health insurance and so on) above 55.000 , and since a few years, there is a separate (moderate) tax for the rich of 45% for everything you earn above a qurater of a million (net).
In big parts of Europe the principle as such is considered fair. In fact there is even an Initiative of the Wealthy that is lobbying for additional taxes for the rich (ok, there are only 64 members, but still).
However, there is also the philosophy that everyone should be taxed the same - a flat tax. In its core theory it could even be a flat SUM - everyone pays X money per year, but in practise it's a flat percentage for everyone.
Now, imagine a country with a flat 22.5% income tax for everyone. Obviously you are pretty screwed when you don't earn much mones, while you piss in your pants, so giddy will you be when you earn a truckload of money.
And that's it, actually. Same principle as with the cigs. Different tax rates, different spendings, different bottom lines - and making use of that, if you legally can is perfectly in line with the rules of worldwide trading and capitalism. After all, building a big factory in a low-income country, where the workers earn comparatively less than in Western Europe or the US AND employers don't have to pay as much in social taxes for workers), so you can produce and sell cheaper is basically not different.

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Minion
Minion


Legendary Hero
posted September 06, 2018 09:53 AM
Edited by Minion at 10:27, 06 Sep 2018.

"It may be cold comfort in this chaotic era, but Americans should know that there are adults in the room. We fully recognize what is happening."

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/09/05/opinion/trump-white-house-anonymous-resistance.html?action=click&module=Top%20Stories&pgtype=Homepage


____________
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Zenofex
Zenofex


Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
posted September 06, 2018 10:42 AM

Quote:
As I said, the problem is, that we live in a WORLD economy
You do realize that the so-called "world economy" does not exist outside of the abstract world, don't you? You pretty much say it yourself. There is no single market, no single tax system, no single fiscal or monetary system, no single customs system, no single system or trade regulations, no single currency, no single nothing. The countries trade with each other like they've been doing since the dawn with civilization, that's about it. Nowadays they certainly do it faster and easier than during the Sumerian times but that's only if you consider individual transactions - a trade embargo on some country or a region is the same problem for one economy now like it was 2000-3000 years ago. The illusion of a "world economy" comes from the fact that the world population is reaching the point where it becomes unsustainable with the existing limited resources of the planet AND the predominant current system of wealth distribution where one person might have more than 100 000 other people.

The vast majority of people will almost never take an individual economic decision thinking globally or quite often they won't even take it rationally (one of the biggest failures of the classic and neoclassic economic theories is that they assume rational behaviour all the time). Tax evasion is thus a mean to increase your local wealth which could otherwise be used for the benefit of the public (assuming even partially functional state). When a businessman, a company, an international corporation, whatever, tries to increase their profit - or decrease their expenditures like in this case, which translates to the same thing - they do it so they can increase they own private wealth, not for some global purpose. The state is expected to counter that because its purpose, at least in theory, is exactly the opposite - to look at the big picture, counter the exploits of one part of the population which can adversely affect another part of the population. And tax evasion does exactly that. The *real* problem is that the state is an abstraction just like the "world economy" and is actually composed of individuals who take their individual economic decisions, thinking locally instead of globally.

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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted September 06, 2018 11:15 AM

"Tax evasion" is EXACTLY the same thing as "production cost evasion" - phrased differently and with a view on the "world economy" you say doesn't exist, it means that if a "corp" in a legal sense (which may be a person as well in a legal sense) can chose where to produce what (you may produce different parts for one product in different countries, for example) in order to produce as cheaply and possible and therefore be competitive and earn a profit or increase profits, then arranging your payment of taxes in the same way as you arrange production is just another side of the same coin.

Even the social argument is another side of the same coin. So when you cite tax evasion as exploiting part of the population, cost reduction (and profit increase) by producing in countries where, generally spoken, labor is cheaper is exactly the same kind of exploitation.

In fact, countries are also in competition, which is why some have lower income taxes while others simply have lower wages and social taxes with a view on competing for corps to produce THERE so that people do have work and someone pays taxes AT ALL.

Lastly, there is also the phenomenon that in some countries - say, Greece - tax evasion on every level is something like a people's sport - quite probably based on the history of corruption and tax-wasting in these countries, making things even more difficult.

Strictly spoken, tax evasion as an offense is not paying ANY taxes by not declaring something. Paying taxes based on the rates the market of countries offers, is - capitalism.

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Zenofex
Zenofex


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Kreegan-atheist
posted September 06, 2018 01:01 PM

That's not how things work because if you live in country A which has a state of its economy X, you don't care about how people live in country B which has state of economy Y. You arguments would be valid in a perfectly regulated and unified system which has the ability to redistribute "well-being" which simply does not exist. Currently - as it has always been in the known history - it's "everyone save his own ass". That "cost reduction" you are talking about, if it can even be called such when some rich guy moves his personal wealth to some tax haven, applies only to the people from which the state cannot collect its taxes in their full amount. The commoners pay everything which they are taxed for, the rich men pay only the amount which they have not smuggled away somewhere else. A very simplified, but useful for illustration example of the consequences would be if you view the taxes as the salary for the state which it then uses to buy goods for its subjects and give them work. Less taxes = less goods for the subjects and less work for them. You can picture the rest.

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markkur
markkur


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Legendary Hero
Once upon a time
posted September 06, 2018 01:31 PM

Minion said:
"It may be cold comfort in this chaotic era, but Americans should know that there are adults in the room. We fully recognize what is happening."

Just curious mate.

Consider...if YOU had been elected in 2016

Look back and rethink every Corporation that has been stacked against YOU, this one rogue, and would YOU still believe all YOU apparently do?

The Military (visible) did not support YOU because YOU said YOU wanted out of NATO and wanted to bring the Troops home from Syria and other places?

The Banks were behind the Neo-Liberals and against YOU.

YOUR own "Supposed" party was full of hostility and yelled never YOU?

Hollywood foams and spews out dung and threatens to leave the country if YOU are elected?

Nearly every rag in the nation spews out against YOU constantly? The only major publication that once in a blue moon prints an objective piece is the Washington Times? While the Wash-Post constantly spews the drumbeat of the NY times. Even the Wall-Street journal, the supposed paper for conservatives is no ally of YOURS. No accuser against YOU has a name other than "an undisclosed source."

Every major Media works against YOU with sham-polls and "resistance" reporting before and after YOUR election and will not report any of the major accomplishments YOU'VE achieved; even after over a year in?

All major social-media-monopolies begin filtering YOUR followers and demonetizing and blocking their support for YOU?

The Heads of the CIA, FBI and the DOJ all colluded to prevent YOUR election and after YOU won, they continued to spy on YOU and planted men that they had worked with for years? All the while projecting their own real Crimes away from 8 years (at minimum) of their own activity and put that BS on YOU endlessly and without a shred of evidence?

Finally, before you even sat YOUR butt down in the oval office, several major politicians were calling for YOUR impeachment?

When YOU were elected, paid street organizers riot and burn?

Now I'll ask:

Nothing about all this against YOU sounds "fishy"...to YOU?



 

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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted September 06, 2018 01:42 PM

I think you are mixing up two things here. "Tax evasion" as in not declaring an income (or capital gain) is a crime and every state or nation is intent on bringing offenders to justice and make sure they get the taxes that were ILLEGALLY withhold (basically by not declaring them, washing them, smuggling them into another country and so on).

However, the post I answered to was about "tax havens", and THEY are not illegal and depend on whether you are living there and so on and are as such everything I said they are.

However, you are also wrong about rich and poor here. The only question is, whether you need to work at a specific place or not and whether you are a worker who gets wages or a salary (in which case you have to pay wage taxes in the country wou work, which are deducted before you get your paycheck), or whether you don't and pay INCOME tax.

For example, I am basically my own employer and have to pay income tax as well, but since I don't have to be at a certain location for my work I can chose which land I want to live in and could in theory pick a country with lower income taxes, if that was my desire.

In the bigger picture, when you think about corporations operating in different countries it's clear that there ARE legal ways to keep taxes to a minimum, depending on where you declare what, because depending on where you are conditions are different, whether we are talking about production costs or taxes to pay. For example, you are the CEO of a corp, and you live in Monaco (are registered there), but the corp has its main office in Britain. So they will deduct your payment as expenses from net income, while you will pay the taxes for it not in Britain, but less in Monaco.

All perfectly legal and a result of a worldwide "market" with regionally different conditions.

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verriker
verriker


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Erwin Data Modeler
posted September 06, 2018 01:54 PM

markkur said:
Nothing about all this against YOU sounds "fishy"...to YOU?


not really it's mostly an own goal because most people are not comparable to him, he is incredibly undignified to put it kindly and gives others literally all the ammunition in the world to call him an ******* and go against him for many valid reasons,
he wants to grab women by the pussy and talks about **** hole countries and all of that, there's no talking one's way around this by pointing fingers anywhere else, even if he had great substance it would be a bad look to have him in charge just for his awful optics, there are websites which document all of his lies and indignities and creepiness to women and such lol

if you are fairly harmless then there's nothing the press can do even if they hate your guts, if you look at the ridiculous stuff the UK press says about Corbyn for instance a lot of it is completely absurd because they have to contort reality into knots to character assassinate him lol
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Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted September 06, 2018 02:16 PM

The post above is a good example why someone like Trump needs to drain the swamp and shut down the fantasy story-tellers around who are deluded enough to think their feelings are facts. I mean, what is the substance behind? There is none: he never said "he grabs women by the pussy" - check the sources instead of suckling such low level propaganda, he is perfectly right about the countries generating mass immigration being sh*tholes - there is a reason why everyone wants to leave, right? - there is no proof whatsoever about his "creepiness" towards women except anonymous reports AFTER he became Potus. And now, some "anonymous report" from the cousin of the wife of the white house cook, probably. It amazes me why you guys just can't let it go, you have nothing but fantasy, let the man do his job and show some respect. Then vote accordingly.
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verriker
verriker


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Erwin Data Modeler
posted September 06, 2018 02:41 PM

for sure even the most mild diplomatic trump critique is like some sort of warped bat signal for Sandremandre, will never fail to be trigged within five minutes or less with some crudely ejaculated polemic because fantasist brain can't do else lol

I think donaldo and the republicans do not need an automated forum defence until the midterms when I will send the ballot from my kitchen here in Paisley, we can take some time to script the bots to have more credible artificial intelligence than that in the meantime lol
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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted September 06, 2018 02:42 PM

Dude, don't you know nothing?

You may watch this video and listen to him - or not, of course.

The we have A list of misconduct allegations that you may or may not read, as you prefer, but there is absolutely NOTHING anonymous about that.

Respect? Dear me.

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markkur
markkur


Responsible
Legendary Hero
Once upon a time
posted September 06, 2018 02:52 PM

verriker said:
...he is incredibly undignified to put it kindly and gives others literally all the ammunition in the world

<L> Sorry my friend, but dignified? I am sick of dignified predators getting away with crimes. Funny, how people go on (unless you are a rabid political zealot and the STATES are loaded with these creatures)
about the "poor" being neglected or forgotten by the spit & polish BS artists that promise everything and deliver nothing.

verriker said:
to call him an ******* and go against him for many valid reasons,he wants to grab women by the pussy and talks about **** hole countries and all of that,

And you just "raced-on past the-necessary-optics" mate. What ACTUALLY gets done by an elected official. He trolls his enemies...no doubt about that. And I am not for trolling but then again I'm not fan of our current political process; where it is only Image the counts and seldom substance.

I'm no Trump fan when it comes to his tweets (or anyone's for that matter) because I see the platforms for what they are. But, I have put myself in his shoes and there is a terrible and evident double standard. Free-speech is pictures and rants about beheading our President? No man...nothing about what this man has faced is right or moral; (whatever your guiding light) nada, zilch, zero...nothing.

Let me see. he talked macho-crap with another dude...what 10 years ago? And TODAY we have had nearly all MSM give passes to true predators of women!!! Weinstein and many others are merely a inconvenient-blip in the news?

Remember this, if this world conformed to MY personal standards, I would not have sex-talk, sex stories out in public' that's called privacy and decency. (what horrible words today) Sex would remain between consenting adults in the privacy of their home and would not be sold and injected into anything and everything like water, to make the cash or sound edgy or both.

However, that is not the world in the secular US public square. But for people to look past serious and recent crimes, and always ignore "their chosen" is very shallow childish stuff. Bill Clinton left a wake of women in his path to the promised land and received blow-jobs in the White-House and he did not begin to get this kind of hate, because most Americans did not give a flip. Hell man, when a pastor or priest does terrible things, again, the MSM barely covers it. Wth?

Further, endless real-time sex-abuse has come to the surface in DC (all over the damned place) and other locations and it barely sees the light of day? But we are supposed to filter Trump's life all the way back to...exactly when and how would you fare under such an inquisition? Are we electing Saints now? Think FDR,"Ike",JFK and Clinton to name a few.

verriker said:
...if you are fairly harmless then there's nothing the press can do even if they hate your guts, if you look at the ridiculous stuff the UK press says about Corbyn for instance a lot of it is completely absurd because they have to contort reality into knots to character assassinate him lol

LOL...who the hell defines fairly harmless? I want you to know that I follow Britain's politics and I see nothing described as fairly harmless.

Btw, this actually IS a world-thread; how about offering your take on each of the front-runners there and the current situation? You have a fine questioning mind. (that's our secret)
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Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted September 06, 2018 02:54 PM

Someone needs to check the meaning of "allegation" and compare with "condemnation".

And let me ask you one thing, how come that ALL reports about his behaving on this or that came out only in 2016, while some are as old as decades? Give a rest.

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Minion
Minion


Legendary Hero
posted September 06, 2018 02:54 PM

@markkur.
Have you ever considered that he simply is unfit in the eyes of the majority? It doesn't need an elaborate conspiracy that involves quite literally EVERYONE, when you start to look it like that.

It is your choise to believe what you want, which you find to be more likely, but I have witnessed for myself that this man doesn't understand anything about anything. He is grossly incompetent. Actually he can barely make a coherent sentence (unless it is about how popular he is), he changes opinions so often that it frustrates everyone trying to work with him, I could go on. He is like a spoiled child (with power), and that was what that quote was a nod to.

Lastly you also brought up many faulty conspiracies that have been debunked long time ago, not much to add, just don't tell me you also believe that Obama was born in Kenya?

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markkur
markkur


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Legendary Hero
Once upon a time
posted September 06, 2018 02:55 PM
Edited by markkur at 14:59, 06 Sep 2018.

JollyJoker said:
Dude, don't you know nothing?

Save me some time mate. Has whatever you've linked happened since he has been President?
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markkur
markkur


Responsible
Legendary Hero
Once upon a time
posted September 06, 2018 02:59 PM
Edited by markkur at 15:01, 06 Sep 2018.

@Minion

Okay, I understand where you stand. No sense in wasting your time.

We shall all see what we will see...soon I trust. If not, then I've been played like a STRAT.




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