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Heroes Community > Other Side of the Monitor > Thread: "Both Sides Against the Middle"
Thread: "Both Sides Against the Middle" This thread is 9 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 · «PREV
blob2
blob2


Legendary Hero
Blob-Ohmos the Second
posted September 14, 2018 10:36 PM
Edited by blob2 at 22:42, 14 Sep 2018.

Salamandre said:
Black people constantly complaining and pointing their finger at others is going out of hand.


I have an aunt in US. She lives in Chicago. Told me how 'equality' looks like in US. How black people use the supposed racism for their own gain. Can get something done in civic department? Make a racket that your mistreated racially, officials will comply, get things done. Waiting in a line? Cry that as a minority you are disrespected, get things done. It sounds ridicioulous but this is the everyday life, something mundane behind all those effusive speeches. It's the "take all, give nothing in return culture" fueled by the omnipresent acceptance of the vox populi. Equality? Ha! Every poised value will eventually be brought down by pettiness, personal gain. That is how it has always worked...

This might very well be the vice of any privileged group, but black people are just basking in the spotlight now. I sound racist? Be my guest, call me racist then!

This is something that I hate: you want to be treated equally? Start with yourself. At this point it's not the matter of race. We all have something behind our ears. In truth we can live normally and in peace, we don't need to 'express' our differences.

Back to the topic: unfortunately there are groups who will fuel this pettiness. Powerful groups. Common disorder is the best way to steer the attention away from true agendas. Give people something to chew on. Make them think they are doing something meaningful, perfecting the world. Yeah right...

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artu
artu


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
posted September 15, 2018 09:12 AM

I’ve just heard about the Serene Williams case here, so naturally, first thing I did was to google the cartoon and look at it. My first reaction was “but this is not about her race, it’s about her tantrum.” Then, I got curious about why the ones who find it racist does find it racist and read an article on it. Rather than the content, it is about a certain drawing style that stereotypes black people in a monkeyish way. Now, the cartoonist is from Australia and I dont know about his country but here, we are indeed “illiterate” about the reputation and history of that drawing style, where as it seems it is something an average American can associate with racist stereotyping easier. I still think having some outrage about such a cartoon is an overreaction but the article below doesnt seem like some unrelatable PC madness to me either. Full Article

Satire is crucial to the cartoonist’s trade. Cartoons work best when they push boundaries, challenge perceptions, create an image that text would struggle to conjure. They point to the dummy on the floor, Williams jumping on the racket and the umpire saying to her opponent, “Can you just let her win?” as though we don’t understand that it’s intended as a commentary on what they label her “tantrum” at the US Open, when she confronted what she felt were the umpire’s harsh decisions. “The cartoon about Serena is about her poor behaviour on the day, not about race,” protested Knight. They think we don’t get it. We get it.

What we don’t get is why that should necessitate drawing Williams with lips the size of a baboon, a nose the width of the Mississippi and the tongue of a camel. Satire involves humorous exaggeration, irony and ridicule. It is not a cover for any and every careless, racist stereotype an illustrator cares to indulge in.

Reasonable people may disagree on how she handled the situation. But there is no reasonable defence for this cartoon, since the point could easily have been made without reducing the world’s most decorated tennis player to a minstrel mammy.

The problem is not that the cartoon’s critics don’t understand the distinction between racism and satire; it’s that Knight and his editors have yet to grasp the distinction between satire and cliche. When you uncritically, and ostensibly unwittingly, recycle a centuries-old image that both demeans and degrades, you do not practise satire – you peddle cliche. As such, the cartoon fails on its own terms and the ultimate tantrum is theirs. For having vocally exercised their right to be offensive, they now take umbrage at the inevitable and predictable outcome: the right of others to be offended.

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I admit it, I like it when they are bombastic - Neraus

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blob2
blob2


Legendary Hero
Blob-Ohmos the Second
posted September 15, 2018 11:07 AM
Edited by blob2 at 11:29, 15 Sep 2018.

Well, the article is ok because it calmly analyzes the root of the problem. I think the reason is pretty understandable: through the years some elements of satire were associated with offending, and now those are a no-go.

But the problem now is that there is a tendency to overblow each and every case related to intolerance (not only racism). I usually don't give a rats ass about internet rage posts, because imo an anonymous (to some extent ofc) group of idiots writing from the back of their couches, think they are the warriors of justice. It turns out they are, they can even ruin a shop. Political correctness/social justice has become a powerful tool to manipulate reality: to get things 'done'. Its the ultimate attack/defence tool: Serena was an angry b*tch, ruined the young winners celebration (Osaka felt miserable, even cried on the reward ceremony), yet she's the victim here. Now everyone talks how poor ol Serena was mistreated because she's both a woman and a black. Now she's a hero cause she "fights for woman rights". Suddenly she can say that she "fights for a better future" and from a zero she becomes a hero. What a turnaround. And a stupid picture is a "racist attack on her". Sheesh...

Klavans spot on commentary

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Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted September 15, 2018 02:32 PM
Edited by Salamandre at 14:55, 15 Sep 2018.

Look, Serena is an immense champion, she outrageously dominated the feminine tennis courts for 15 years - she is now a legend. When you are at the top of the top, the reactions you trigger will range from one extreme to another, it is the price to pay. I would certainly be shocked if the average black individual is painted in some caricature this way, but is about Serena, so it HAS to inflate, provoke and ultimately sell. Serena Williams, on an individual level, CAN take it. The flaw is to suggest an entire race is targeted.

blob2 said:
Well, the article is ok because it calmly analyzes the root of the problem.


Analyzing supposes formulating arguments then build a synopsis, a conclusion in the end. He starts by stating the article is racist then forthwith piles up "guardian" level clichés, mentioning altogether Trump, Katie Hopkins, Boris Johnson, a typical leftist attempt to insinuate some evil background of white supremacists against the tiny, frail and sensitive Serena, daughter of cotton pickers from somewhere in Alabama, because it rhymes with Scarlet O'Hara.

The article can be summed in one phrase:

Quote:
just because you have the right to do something doesn’t mean you should do it.


Here we are, minorities from backward and intolerant cultures trying to redefine western values and rights at the point they should be literally removed. And we know how that ends if westerners do not comply, 12 cartoonists slaughtered in Paris, one killed in Netherlands, how many others threatened and hiding? Is that worth remembering or no?

Quote:
Satire involves humorous exaggeration, irony and ridicule


He said it. Thats why you get Steffi Graf with a witch nose, Agassi with E.T head, Moresmo (which is lesbian) with masculine traits, then what about Nadal having the jaws the size of a gorilla? it is the purpose of satire and caricature, provoke laugh by ridiculing specific traits.

Also it is quite ironic that a guy standing up against what he calls "clichés" is using himself clichés. A baboon has almost no lips at all, there is nothing special with a camel's tongue so better open some biology manuals next time and stop clichés about what you believe white people tried to do.

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blob2
blob2


Legendary Hero
Blob-Ohmos the Second
posted September 15, 2018 05:43 PM

Actually I didn't read the whole article. I was referring to the fragment artu posted. It turns out it's another of those BS social justice articles...

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markkur
markkur


Responsible
Legendary Hero
Once upon a time
posted September 15, 2018 06:15 PM

@blob2
Watch "Chicago Unchained" vid on the OP. This is what it was like for Americans living in the city while R.E. (Obama's buddy) was the Chicago mayor, behind a White-House in power for EIGHT years. Now, finally, that pitiful Mayor is stepping down.

Btw, their are many new black voices that are gaining traction. Check out "Kevin's Corner" on Utube. Down to earth...logic and that is exactly what we all need today.

@Fred
There is a war raging behind the scenes that is spilling out to the fore now and we still have too many people that cannot get out of the box and Hmm? "Change their viewing-habits." But you already know that.

@artu
Cartoons in the West have been around...forever; seriously they've been done since back in the Napoleonic Era and probably much further back. Honestly I detest them but there are many things that I detest in Caesar's world, that I do not endorse but do not force others to conform to my personal standards.

@Salamandre
The reason that the "view from afar, into these United States" is distorted is because the same Media here owns a lot of Media...there.

Many here really need to expand their mind and their criteria for acceptance of "news." Related, I blamed "my church" for the decisions that have been made in recent history and for the dis-connect with the masses. Likewise I mostly blame the USA for the Globalism that has dissected nations and cultures today; I want all to survive.

The Power behind Thrones has been active and planning their own ends for a very long time and pitted us against each other. Fyi, the earliest Greedy-effort to disown allegiance, that I am aware, came when Mr. Ford, the automaker. "During the Great Depression" he built a Ford-Plant in the Philippines; this is fact, because in the "World at War" series, there is film of the British Singapore surrender delegation meeting with Japanese general Yamasnowa in that factory.

Thus, it naturally followed that if our Elite would "shop around the world for the cheapest most desperate labor" that over time so would all the other rich industrialists...over the globe. Trade-deals.

@All

This is not a rebuff to anyone here but to understand anything I have done here, you must understand that all of us here at HC are "Both-sides against the Middle". For, as long as WE take the bait and bicker over the smelly-fish we are served, we play...their game.

I am more than tired of endless pushing of Starz and what they do, think and say; i.e. all late night "supposed" comedians are not a jot more than paid political hacks, that enjoy a life of luxury...that we do NOT!

I am outraged that our supposed elected leaders sham and scam us, all of us and we dissect, dung? While they pander to those that care nothing for you or me.

Fyi, previous Journalism in our old Media, (before they went from 50/100 independent news Corporations to SIX!) that has been trashed today; the MSM does not even bother to pretend now.

Here is a small way to "navigate" what once existed. Now to explain my view of Lionel; he does NOT represent my Christianity but folks, I do not expect him to do so. He is a main-stream media New Yorker, that calls himself a Religious & much more importantly...a Political atheist. He and I agree on many things when it comes to Truth and Reporting, and it is merely my opinion, listening to the following  posts he has made, should at least allow some of you to see an important alternative perspective that is now being...silenced.

I yet have hope this Usurpation of our Media will be overturned but like all of you, it is very difficult to see reasonable pictures today. I want that crap gone because I believe, unless we all want to become full-time journalist, we need to be able to trust the daily news, wherever we live.

Lionel on U-Tube
link 1

link 2

link 3

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"Do your own research"

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artu
artu


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
posted September 15, 2018 07:40 PM
Edited by artu at 20:19, 15 Sep 2018.

Salamandre said:
Here we are, minorities from backward and intolerant cultures trying to redefine western values and rights at the point they should be literally removed. And we know how that ends if westerners do not comply, 12 cartoonists slaughtered in Paris, one killed in Netherlands, how many others threatened and hiding? Is that worth remembering or no?

You are mistaking one thing for another here. Extreme majority of Afro-Americans are not “recent” immigrants. They don’t come from an intolerant culture, they had been living under a culture for generations since centuries, which was “intolerant” to them to the point of not sharing public restrooms only like 60 years ago. And this also has a visual history of caricaturing them in a certain way.  

Btw, your example of Muslims killing cartoonists is way off. When that happened, you were the one saying such cartoons were in the zone of “just because you have the right to do something doesn’t mean you should do it” while I was the one saying Muslims of course have the right to protest such cartoons but vandalizing streets and trying to burn embassies enchanting death threats was certainly not such a protest. He is talking about reactions, not restrictions. And he gives a reason to such reactions, which is not about:
Salamandre said:
That’s why you get Steffi Graf with a witch nose, Agassi with E.T head, Moresmo (which is lesbian) with masculine traits, then what about Nadal having the jaws the size of a gorilla? it is the purpose of satire and caricature, provoke laugh by ridiculing specific traits.

This is by-passing his whole argument and replying as if he objects to ridiculing through exaggeration  of anatomical  features by default. What he’s saying is that the caricature is not ridiculing Serena Williams’ specific anatomical features but using a cliche style of racial stereotyping. Let’s take this for instance. Now, imagine all of the characters were caricaturized in the same way just because they were British, instead of having different anomalies.
Salamandre said:
Also it is quite ironic that a guy standing up against what he calls "clichés" is using himself clichés. A baboon has almost no lips at all, there is nothing special with a camel's tongue so better open some biology manuals next time and stop clichés about what you believe white people tried to do.

I guess, we can both agree he is not photographically accurate as a writer when it comes to using metaphors from the animal kingdom, baboons are infamous for their ass, not their lips, etc. But it is quite easy to figure out what he’s referring to, a certain way of monkeyfying blacks in cartoons, historically in sync with degrading them.
markkur said:
Cartoons in the West have been around...forever; seriously they've been done since back in the Napoleonic Era and probably much further back. Honestly I detest them but there are many things that I detest in Caesar's world, that I do not endorse but do not force others to conform to my personal standards.


Thank you for enlightening me on that, Markkur. Since we decapitate all cartoonists here, the info really shook me!

(There's no reason to detest them, btw. As I said, the problem is the scale of the reaction here, not its reason. Black people can find a caricature distasteful, shallow or prejudiced. It's just silly to treat it like some mob lynch.)

____________
I admit it, I like it when they are bombastic - Neraus

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blob2
blob2


Legendary Hero
Blob-Ohmos the Second
posted September 15, 2018 08:14 PM
Edited by blob2 at 20:26, 15 Sep 2018.

markkur said:

I yet have hope this Usurpation of our Media will be overturned but like all of you, it is very difficult to see reasonable pictures today. I want that crap gone because I believe, unless we all want to become full-time journalist, we need to be able to trust the daily news, wherever we live.


I detest journalism. Sure, one can say we would be nowehere without information, without the people who gather and pass those. But at the same they are such a manipulative bunch that it makes me sick. They say media is neutral yet they always push their agenda on us (be it lefty or righty). There's no such thing as the 'right way of thinking'. But as long as people belive something is the 'right way' they will be moved by those who pass it. I don't give a damn, but there are a lot of people who become influenced by media (I think everyone one of us can be jabaited, they feed on our emotions afterall). To the point of pointing fingers and destroying others. False accusations and such. They have too much power. And people behind them know it, that's why it's called the fourth power...

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markkur
markkur


Responsible
Legendary Hero
Once upon a time
posted September 15, 2018 09:13 PM

artu said:
Thank you for enlightening me on that, Markkur. Since we decapitate all cartoonists here, the info really shook me!

(There's no reason to detest them, btw. As I said, the problem is the scale of the reaction here, not its reason. Black people can find a caricature distasteful, shallow or prejudiced. It's just silly to treat it like some mob lynch.)


There is nothing wrong in the practice, but I do detest cartoons on important matter...no matter what the matter is. I'm just not that way now; once upon a time.

Years back, I enjoyed for a brief time a cartoonist that signed his, statement-artcrafts, in my local paper back-then..."Judge"

See if you can find some...as I remember, his work was very popular, elsewhere in the states. I could be wrong about that.

Cheers

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Corribus
Corribus

Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
posted September 16, 2018 03:31 PM

Reading through this, there's a lot of racist and similar posting that is not consistent with the Code of Conduct. Please try to remember the rules before you post.
____________
I'm sick of following my dreams. I'm just going to ask them where they're goin', and hook up with them later. -Mitch Hedberg

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