Heroes of Might and Magic Community
visiting hero! Register | Today's Posts | Games | Search! | FAQ/Rules | AvatarList | MemberList | Profile


Age of Heroes Headlines:  
5 Oct 2016: Heroes VII development comes to an end.. - read more
6 Aug 2016: Troubled Heroes VII Expansion Release - read more
26 Apr 2016: Heroes VII XPack - Trial by Fire - Coming out in June! - read more
17 Apr 2016: Global Alternative Creatures MOD for H7 after 1.8 Patch! - read more
7 Mar 2016: Romero launches a Piano Sonata Album Kickstarter! - read more
19 Feb 2016: Heroes 5.5 RC6, Heroes VII patch 1.7 are out! - read more
13 Jan 2016: Horn of the Abyss 1.4 Available for Download! - read more
17 Dec 2015: Heroes 5.5 update, 1.6 out for H7 - read more
23 Nov 2015: H7 1.4 & 1.5 patches Released - read more
31 Oct 2015: First H7 patches are out, End of DoC development - read more
5 Oct 2016: Heroes VII development comes to an end.. - read more
[X] Remove Ads
LOGIN:     Username:     Password:         [ Register ]
New Server | HOMM1: info forum | HOMM2: info forum | HOMM3: info forum | HOMM4: info forum | HOMM5: info forum | MMH6: wiki forum | MMH7: wiki forum
Heroes Community > Library of Enlightenment > Thread: About the Ballistics skill
Thread: About the Ballistics skill
phoenix4ever
phoenix4ever


Supreme Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted September 04, 2018 09:16 PM

About the Ballistics skill

I have mentioned it before, I'm not fond of the Ballistics skill.
I mostly play VS AI and it usually charges right out of the gate and if not, there are spells like Earthquake, Teleport, Air Shield plus Cyclops and Cannon in HotA.
That is also why I usually aim at the side towers, if I have Ballistics, to maybe save a few units (if I don't have Resurrection/Animate Dead) cause AI will open the gate anyway. But it's sometimes pretty hard to hit those damn towers.
I'm assuming the biggest benefit of Ballistics is that you get the turn before the enemy, (if they don't have Artillery) that means slow towns like Stronghold and Tower would benefit most from it. And Stronghold and Tower just happens to have Yog and Theodorus with Ballistics skill. But what about Rampart and Inferno, they have Uland and Olema with Ballistics, but Rampart and Inferno are already quite fast and have pretty good fliers.
That the skill also only does something when you are attacking a town also feels very situational to me.

So what do you think of Ballistics and Yog, Theodorus, Uland and Olema? And do you pick Ballistics to destroy the gate, the towers or to get "First Strike"?
And is the skill ever worth picking for other towns like perhaps Fortress or Cove in HotA?

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
monere
monere


Famous Hero
posted September 04, 2018 09:30 PM

I know that my opinion doesn't weight too much since I, too, play ONLY against the AI, but... I'll still give my opinion, just because I can xD

So, no, I don't like ballistics. It's indeed a situational skill, but since I always landlock the AI somewhere where he can't bother me ballistics is always one of the 1st skills to replace, should it ever get crammed down my throat.

Also, not sure if you've ever played WoG but I think you should give it a try. WoG has improved so many crap skills that I don't even conceive anymore playing a game without having eagle eye or mysticism on my main hero, even though I play against the AI and I don't really need those skills. But, they have been improved in WoG, just like all other skills that in vanilla versions of the game are crappy indeed, so, you should consider playing WoG if you haven't done it already.

2 warnings, though, if you're ever gonna play WoG:

1) it is VERY overwhelming at first, so be ready to set aside a couple of hours to go though all of the changes and customizations so you can understand what they do, and to set your own preferences;

2) never ever EVER engage rank 10 hell hydras without force field, quicksand, or both. Trust me on this one. Blind doesn't work on those creatures, hypnotize not even close, berserker doesn't work, slow doesn't work. On top of that they have fire shield (and it hurts), 14 movement speed (so they WILL get to you in turn 1), double strike, and the gayest thing of all is that they have a HIGH chance (probably 25% or so), to block half of the damage you do to them... and they freaking block it without problems. So, the only way to deal with those nasty Hydras is to have either force field, quicksand, or both. That's the only way to stop / slow them down from getting to you, and they're nasty as hell when they're rank 10 (yes, in WoG the creatures actually level up)


 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
phoenix4ever
phoenix4ever


Supreme Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted September 04, 2018 09:39 PM

Thanks Monere

About WoG, I simply don't like it and I wont play it, now a days I only play HotA.
I already improved the most useless skills, like Learning, Eagle Eye, First Aid, Mysticism and Sorcery, but Ballistics is not a skill I can do much about and in my game I feel like Ballistics may be the very worst skill. (Except for AI which needs it badly, but it usually always has Ballistics.)
That's why I'm trying to figure out, if the skill is ever worth anything VS AI.

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
monere
monere


Famous Hero
posted September 04, 2018 09:58 PM

phoenix4ever said:
Thanks Monere

About WoG, I simply don't like it and I wont play it, now a days I only play HotA.
I already improved the most useless skills, like Learning, Eagle Eye, First Aid, Mysticism and Sorcery, but Ballistics is not a skill I can do much about and in my game I feel like Ballistics may be the very worst skill. (Except for AI which needs it badly, but it usually always has Ballistics.)
That's why I'm trying to figure out, if the skill is ever worth anything VS AI.


The AI only beats the newbies... and me. So, it's not worth anything against real players, but you should probably listen to the advice of the pros instead of mine

Also, what do you mean by "YOU have improved the skills"? Are you a developer / modder?

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
phoenix4ever
phoenix4ever


Supreme Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted September 04, 2018 10:01 PM

Yep, I am a modder, map-maker and player.
You can check out my changes here if you want: http://heroescommunity.com/viewthread.php3?TID=43804
It's not 100% updated, but almost.

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
monere
monere


Famous Hero
posted September 04, 2018 10:22 PM

phoenix4ever said:
Yep, I am a modder, map-maker and player.
You can check out my changes here if you want: http://heroescommunity.com/viewthread.php3?TID=43804
It's not 100% updated, but almost.


He! Lucky you that you can still have fun playing games that you mod. For some reason I find this ability hard to maintain.

And yeah, I'll check your thread and see what you are up to

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
RerryR
RerryR


Promising
Known Hero
posted September 04, 2018 10:41 PM

monere said:

2) never ever EVER engage rank 10 hell hydras


These Hell Hydras are indeed very strong I liked the way you described that

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
monere
monere


Famous Hero
posted September 05, 2018 02:21 AM

Well, I described it the way I've felt their gayness on my poor army

As someone whose all-time favorite town is the Heroes 3 Fortress town I can assure you that I hate the Hell Hydras as much as I love the chaos hydra

Have you felt their wrath, too?

RerryR said:
monere said:

2) never ever EVER engage rank 10 hell hydras


These Hell Hydras are indeed very strong I liked the way you described that



 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Otuken
Otuken


Known Hero
posted September 05, 2018 04:31 AM

Ballistics skill's aim is breaking gate earlier then invading castle by ground creatures but the concept of conquering towns is nothing like that. I mean a scenario like these pratically never occur. Rather you conquer towns by your high level flyers and damage spells.

Not totally useless skill but better to not learn.
____________

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted September 05, 2018 05:03 AM
Edited by Salamandre at 05:30, 05 Sep 2018.

Nubs. Ballistic skill is only useful at NOT breaking gates (you skip catapult's turn, that's it), its purpose is to stay safe out of reach and is one of the top skills to have in single player custom and hard maps. AI parameters about getting through the gate are very strict so it is possible to keep it inside if your army has a specific setup. But as soon as one piece of wall is destroyed all those parameters change.
____________
Era II mods and utilities

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
RerryR
RerryR


Promising
Known Hero
posted September 05, 2018 08:09 AM
Edited by RerryR at 08:24, 05 Sep 2018.

Salamandre said:
Nubs. Ballistic skill is only useful at NOT breaking gates (you skip catapult's turn, that's it), its purpose is to stay safe out of reach and is one of the top skills to have in single player custom and hard maps. AI parameters about getting through the gate are very strict so it is possible to keep it inside if your army has a specific setup. But as soon as one piece of wall is destroyed all those parameters change.


ah here we go again... every time something is called bad/underused/weak someone comes around the corner and screams" But do you know THIS trick and THAT custom map, it's absolutely necessary to have that and you cannot go without it."  
What if I told you can implement the snowtiest thing imaginable, in a game, which does absolutely nothing but still design a map around it where it is mandatory to win or progress. This is always possible. This speaks for the Mapmaker, his design (maybe)and his knowledge about the game but not necessary for the game itself, if the skill does nothing in 99% of cases in the rest of the game. Prominent examples here would be Eagle Eye and Ballistic and some heroes or spells which were discussed here before.
I mean a skill like Ballistic certainly fits but why not improve it to a level where it's not so situational, in the case you mentioned its more about abousing stupid AI. Make it skill I can pick at least in 20% of my games. Currently i pick it 0 %, like forever. I know its designed to be like that but yeah, why not improve it and discuss about it, because we have the possibility here to do so, I think phoenix is doing a good job with that.
I hope you get my point.
And of course I didn't know the trick you mentioned, so thanks for telling us

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted September 05, 2018 08:22 AM

Is not about this or that map, it is NOT situational. Is about 90% of good maps, they are almost all designed with this trick in mind as it is as old as RoE, it is basic knowledge. Consider several things:

a) if a mapmaker lets AI heroes run around, there is a risk of freezing game or modifications of individual setup as those heroes will exchange armies.
b) thus the majority of battles are set as siege based or fixed locations. Most will be siege type because there must be some challenge when you acquire a new town.
c) In a siege battle, if you set balanced armies, the player will still use the ballistic trick and battle will not be challenging at all, thus you have to set AI army xx times bigger, so at some point battles are not doable any longer without the ballistic trick.
d) The reverse is also possible and used as well. If you destroy the catapult, there is no way for the other player, granted he has not earthquake or cyclops that he can enter the castle.

if you don't have ballistic you still can achieve same results, but is riskier and depends on your spell power, your ability to destroy your own catapult in 1-2 turns, while it exposes you to AI unpredictable actions.

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
RerryR
RerryR


Promising
Known Hero
posted September 05, 2018 08:34 AM

Do you ever sleep?

Okay, so still seems more like a tool for mapmakers to me.
I don't know how it is in multiplayer thou, do people use it?

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Lth3
Lth3


Known Hero
posted September 05, 2018 10:03 AM

on poor and not big maps maybe. otherwise no, since you cannot predict you will need it

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
heroes_player
heroes_player


Known Hero
posted September 06, 2018 07:40 PM
Edited by heroes_player at 19:42, 06 Sep 2018.

Good evening

Ballistic is very good tough epic solo scenarios, however.. Even against AI on 'normal maps', I think it is still decent choice. When you invade the AI town, they sometimes tend to sit inside walls on defense mode which will result unnecessarily big loss to your army because of the shooting towers. With ballistics you can at least force the AI to come out or just kill the shooting towers to prevent further losses. If you disagree let me know...

Btw long time since I have been here, nice to see this forum still being alive even though the game is decades old... H3 is definitely one of best games I have experienced

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
phoenix4ever
phoenix4ever


Supreme Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted September 06, 2018 07:50 PM

heroes_player said:
When you invade the AI town, they sometimes tend to sit inside walls on defense mode which will result unnecessarily big loss to your army because of the shooting towers.
Hmm in my experience it is very rare that AI stays behind the castle walls, it usually happens when I play Fortress and have only low amounts of Lizard Warriors. So I guess that means Ballistics would be useful to Fortress, but even then I don't feel like wasting a skill slot on it. I could also see a point as Stronghold or Tower to get initiative, but overall Ballistics really does'nt feel very important to me.

Indeed Heroes 3 is an excellent game, even after so many years.  

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
zmudziak22
zmudziak22


Famous Hero
posted September 12, 2018 05:41 PM

Ballistic is not bad skill, remote control of Catapult and ability to cast before arrow towers is huge bonus for custom maps(see RoseCavalier Metaxer Revenge walktrough). Since SOD/WoG AI is dumb we can abuse it like Berserk or Force Field.

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Jump To: « Prev Thread . . . Next Thread »
Post New Poll    Post New Topic    Post New Reply

Page compiled in 0.0520 seconds