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Heroes Community > Library of Enlightenment > Thread: Spells with little effect from magic schools
Thread: Spells with little effect from magic schools
phoenix4ever
phoenix4ever


Supreme Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted September 13, 2018 07:00 PM
Edited by phoenix4ever at 19:03, 13 Sep 2018.

Spells with little effect from magic schools

In this thread I would like to discuss how some spells benefit (very) little from magic schools and perhaps how that could be changed.
Besides the reduced mana cost per spell level, some spells simply gain very little from the magic schools. A good example would be the damage spells and Hypnotize, which only gain +XX bonus damage, but also spells like Animate Dead and Blind I feel does'nt really gain anything from basic to expert.
The damage spells and Hypnotize there is not much to do about them, I guess they could give a bigger bonus or unskilled/basic could give 0 bonus damage, to make a bigger difference between basic/advanced/expert, but it does'nt matter much anyway.
The same applies to Animate Dead, I even went one step further and made Animate Dead (and Resurrection) only permanent at expert Earth Magic, but that just makes Earth Magic even more powerful.
The only things different with Blind, is how much retaliation damage you get, not much to do about this either, besides maybe increase unskilled/basic from 50% -> 100% and advanced from 25% -> 50% retaliation damage.

Are there other spells that benefit little from magic schools? and what could be done to change that?

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bloodsucker
bloodsucker


Legendary Hero
posted September 13, 2018 08:11 PM

How about making ForceField last for more then two turns depending on the level of expertise?
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phoenix4ever
phoenix4ever


Supreme Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted September 13, 2018 08:58 PM

I think that would be kinda broken and Force Field already grows from 2 -> 3 in size from basic to advanced, but yeah nothing happens from advanced to expert.
What I would like was to be able to change direction of Force Field and Fire Wall and for AI to be able to cast them.

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monere
monere


Famous Hero
posted September 13, 2018 09:03 PM

1) Magic Mirror is pretty weak for a level 5 spell

No Air... 20% chance to trigger
Basic Air.... still 20% chance to trigger
Advanced... 30%
Expert 40%

I could give it 50% chance at expert, 40% chance at advanced, 30% at basic and leave 20% chance of triggering for no air skill


2) Chain Lightning

The difference between CL at no air vs expert air is a whopping... 100 damage. That's a (bad) joke.

Make it at least 300-500 more damage at expert air vs no air


3) Inferno... again a joke of a spell.

The damage difference between basic and expert fire is a "whopping" 60 damage. Pathetic!

Modify the damage so that at basic fire the spell does (Power x 10) damage, at advanced fire it does (Power x 15), and at expert it does (Power x 20) damage... or something like that


4) Mirth... at expert water it should raise the morale of all allied creatures to maximum (3), not by 2


5) Sorrow... just like Mirth, but the other way around

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phoenix4ever
phoenix4ever


Supreme Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted September 13, 2018 09:13 PM
Edited by phoenix4ever at 21:28, 13 Sep 2018.

monere said:
1) Magic Mirror is pretty weak for a level 5 spell

No Air... 20% chance to trigger
Basic Air.... still 20% chance to trigger
Advanced... 30%
Expert 40%

I could give it 50% chance at expert, 40% chance at advanced, 30% at basic and leave 20% chance of triggering for no air skill


2) Chain Lightning

The difference between CL at no air vs expert air is a whopping... 100 damage. That's a (bad) joke.

Make it at least 300-500 more damage at expert air vs no air


3) Inferno... again a joke of a spell.

The damage difference between basic and expert fire is a "whopping" 60 damage. Pathetic!

Modify the damage so that at basic fire the spell does (Power x 10) damage, at advanced fire it does (Power x 15), and at expert it does (Power x 20) damage... or something like that


4) Mirth... at expert water it should raise the morale of all allied creatures to maximum (3), not by 2


5) Sorrow... just like Mirth, but the other way around

1) I made Magic Mirror a mass spell at expert level, I'm very satisfied with that.

2) & 3) Exactly, damage spells gain little from magic school mastery.

4) & 5) I guess we should include Fortune and Misfortune too then (and give Melodia and Daremyth new specials) there is one problem with Mirth though: How often would you benefit from +3 Morale, when you normally have +1 morale or more if you have angels and/or Leadership. And Sorrow would probably be broken at -3 morale. I'm really tempted to changed Misfortune to -3 luck though.

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monere
monere


Famous Hero
posted September 13, 2018 09:21 PM

phoenix4ever said:

1) I made Magic Mirror a mass spell at expert level, I'm very satisfied with that.

2) & 3) Exactly, damage spells gain little from magic school mastery.

4) & 5) I guess we should include Fortune and Misfortune too then (and give Melodia and Daremyth new specials) there is one problem with Mirth though: How often would you benefit from +3 Morale, when you normally have +1 morale or more if you have angels and/or Leadership. And Sorrow would probably be broken at -3 morale. I'm really tempted to changed Misfortune to -3 Luck though.


1) good! Although... even if you've let it at 40% chance ut would still be powerful when cast on all creatures, unless.... can it be mass dispelled??

4/5) you are right about misfortune. Should definitely lower luck to -3, especially since I'm rarely able to notice the impact of luck/bad luck in my games. I don't think giving it maximum bad luck breaks the game in any way

As for Melodia / Daremith... I never played them (as main hero I mean) cause I don't find any value in luck altogether, so I'm not sure how much more influential luck, as special, is

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phoenix4ever
phoenix4ever


Supreme Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted September 13, 2018 09:27 PM
Edited by phoenix4ever at 21:29, 13 Sep 2018.

Magic Mirror can be mass dispelled and it also can't reflect mass spells or area effect spells so it's not extremely strong, but as a level 5 spell it should have some power, which I think it does now.

Melodia and Daremyths special makes their Fortune always give +3 luck. (But since Melodia already has Luck her special is useless.)

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monere
monere


Famous Hero
posted September 13, 2018 09:34 PM
Edited by monere at 21:34, 13 Sep 2018.

phoenix4ever said:
Magic Mirror can be mass dispelled and it also can't reflect mass spells or area effect spells so it's not extremely strong, but as a level 5 spell it should have some power, which I think it does now.

Melodia and Daremyths special makes their Fortune always give +3 luck. (But since Melodia already has Luck her special is useless.)


Well, in that case... no offense but both Melodia and Daremyth are CRAP. Sorry to say it, but it's true

And yeah, you've done well with Magic Mirror by making it global

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phoenix4ever
phoenix4ever


Supreme Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted September 13, 2018 09:40 PM
Edited by phoenix4ever at 21:41, 13 Sep 2018.

monere said:

Well, in that case... no offense but both Melodia and Daremyth are CRAP. Sorry to say it, but it's true

I 100% agree with that, well for Daremyth I guess it can be okay-ish as long as she stays away from the Luck skill, luck artifacts, Ramparts grail, learns Air Magic and is bothered to actually cast Fortune.

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monere
monere


Famous Hero
posted September 13, 2018 09:43 PM

nah! Still crap. You can't beat kyrre / gunnar with daremyth

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phoenix4ever
phoenix4ever


Supreme Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted September 13, 2018 09:47 PM

Yeah Logistics specialists are hard to beat with any hero.
Gunnar might be the best hero in the game.

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monere
monere


Famous Hero
posted September 13, 2018 09:52 PM
Edited by monere at 21:52, 13 Sep 2018.

phoenix4ever said:
Yeah Logistics specialists are hard to beat with any hero.
Gunnar might be the best hero in the game.


Why "might"?? He and Kyrre are both tied on the #1 spot for gayness

EDIT: ignore my post icon, I always mistake post icons with smileys

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phoenix4ever
phoenix4ever


Supreme Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted September 13, 2018 10:04 PM
Edited by phoenix4ever at 22:41, 13 Sep 2018.

I think Gunnar is better than Kyrre and Dessa. Gunnar comes with Tactics, which is great for Dungeon, Kyrre comes with Archery which is not very good for Rampart and Dessa comes with Wisdom, which all heroes should get anyway.

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monere
monere


Famous Hero
posted September 13, 2018 10:10 PM

phoenix4ever said:
I think Gunnar is better than Kyrre and Dessa. Gunnar comes with Tactics, which is great for Dungeon, Kyrre comes which Archery which is not very good for Rampart and Dessa comes with Wisdom, which all heroes should get anyway.


Oh, right! I've forgot their seconday skills since I've only been playing WoG in the last 15 years and in WoG there are no bad skills. You're right

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Otuken
Otuken


Known Hero
posted September 13, 2018 11:57 PM

If you don't consider mass berserk broken then why not making mass blind for expert fire magic?
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bloodsucker
bloodsucker


Legendary Hero
posted September 14, 2018 02:23 AM

phoenix4ever said:
I think Gunnar is better than Kyrre and Dessa. Gunnar comes with Tactics, which is great for Dungeon, Kyrre comes with Archery which is not very good for Rampart and Dessa comes with Wisdom, which all heroes should get anyway.

And this is where we disagree, I think Dessa beats the others (in SP) because he doesn't have a single skill you can live without (except in certain templates where you almost necessarily find all tomes of magic, even then I think I could more often find a better use for the artifact slots then for the secondary skills one). Tactics isn't always a necessary skill and archery is often a waste, so Dessa allows for a more custom development.
Of course, primary skills also count and battle mages are worst then Overlords in this regard but I don't think Rangers are better, most of their prims goes for defense that I consider almost useless in SP (has a matter of fact, I consider desirable primary skills like this 1. Attack, 2. Knowledge, 3. Defense, 4. Power).  
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