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Heroes Community > Heroes 7+ Altar of Wishes > Thread: Line-ups suggestion for Heroes 8
Thread: Line-ups suggestion for Heroes 8 This thread is 7 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 · «PREV / NEXT»
red_flag
red_flag


Known Hero
posted September 29, 2018 12:08 AM
Edited by red_flag at 00:32, 29 Sep 2018.

First of all, I'm sorry for mistakes, since English is not my native language, so my messages are full of mistakes, realy sorry about that.

Ok, I realized my mistake - I shoud to name these pictures something like: "What line-ups I'd like to see in Heroes 6-7 instead of spiders, deers, striders, kobolds-hamsters, etc." than "suggestions for Heroes 8 ". It was more of an advertising action than a motivation, but those things of the past days.

For new Heroes game, of course, I would like to innovate, but these are just the words that I hear. So, instead of words just try to arrange yourself and offer a completely new line-up for Necropolis or Sylvan, for example, which will be cool and fresh.


monere said:
1) Devils MUST be part of Inferno. They belong there, and they're stronger than pit lords...

Completely agree, but for some reason they were removed from the game and I just followed for this.

monere said:
3) some creature belong in certain towns IMO, like for example behemoths in Stronghold (why are there no monkeys in Stronghold by the way??), or pegasi in... I don't know.... maybe academy, or even Haven? Also, where are the Titans?????? Some creatures are really iconic to HOMM

Just put Titans, Devils, Behemothes and different kinds of Dragons to the 7th tier and that's all.

monere said:
(why are there no monkeys in Stronghold by the way)

May be due to Disciples 2, I don't know, just like them with dwarves faction.

monere said:
4) where are my beloved Magic Elementals??? Those creatures are so unique, and so cool that it would be a shame NOT to bring them back

Honestly, I thought about them, but they place was taken by the Elementals of Light and Dark, which are also some kind of magic elementals and not natural ones for me, but i don't happy of them at all...

monere said:
7) Minotaur in Academy????? Hell NO!

Maybe yes, maybe not, originaly they were created by the Academy's magicians. So, I take Ashan as rule, so...why not?

monere said:
9) treants as champions?? Not a good idea IMO.

Also maybe yes, maybe not. Personally for me they are huge powerful creatures, slower but not much weaker than Titans. Just imo. But Green/Gold Dragons more powerful for 7 tier for sure. I just don't like when every factions has a some kind of dragons. I prefer to see Dragons as the ultimate level neutral creatures.


lantranar said:
Ubisoft doesnt just own Hmm, they own M&M, which is the only fantasy themed IP they have right now. I hope next time they ll try to set up a universe that can compete with other popular fantasy IPs

They already had two chances... Maybe the last... So maybe we are dinosaurs here...

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monere
monere


Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
posted September 29, 2018 12:40 AM

By "monkeys" I meant the behemoths. There's no behemoths in that Stronghold lineup and they should be there.

Honestly, I don't mind having the exact same creatures like in Heroes 3 (ok, maybe with 1-2 new addition / replacements in each faction) if the skills, spells, and artifacts are rethought and improved.

Regarding the Magic Elementals... screw the light and dark ones. There's no elemental more beautifully designed and cool-acting than the Magic Elemental from Heroes 3. That creature should be hardcoded into every HoMM game from now on

And yeah, I agree that there's too many dragons. I think, the black, gold, and faerie dragons should stay, but all other dragons (magma, azure, crystal, etc) should be done away with.

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NimoStar
NimoStar


Responsible
Legendary Hero
Modding the Unmoddable
posted September 29, 2018 02:17 AM
Edited by NimoStar at 02:19, 29 Sep 2018.

Ents are described as fast in the long run in LOTR books since 1- Most of their body is legs, AKA really long steps 2- They have incredible stamina and never tire of walking.

But well, I woudn't mind "elite" ents either.

Beyond that... why was there never a Treefolk/Dendroid hero?
It seems almost all anthropoid races got heroes, even Gnolls, but not them :/

I am able to add Hero Creatures in my H4 mod, but can't add ents because they dont exist in such game (we only have one weird AF plant), ho ho.

Which brings me to the point that I think than in the next Heroes, heros should have the *option* of physically entering combat.

Say, they start outside, but can use a turn to "step in". This is of course risky, but may be at least a one-last-stand option. And it would be glorious to see your hero fall in 3D battle

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bitmaid
bitmaid


Adventuring Hero
posted September 29, 2018 04:03 AM

When monere said "monkeys" I had a feeling of monkaS. At this point you just crack me up lol

( I sense I may have brought up something that prolly doesn't fit the culture here )


Anyhow, h7 ent (treant) was pretty disappointing. I thought coming up with a good lineup would require vast knowledge and reference in mythology and the fantasy genre, and equally important is originality in imagination so it's actual creative work rather than research. The title is bad but if it's now understood that the thread is about people's favorite creatures from the past, maybe we can figure out what made certain units popular so we know what works. If anyone's looking for archetypes and varieties they could easily find more exciting and bizarre creatures than hamsters and spiders in the D&D handbook. But then again Heroes is not D&D even though it might borrow heavily from it. The distant, if-ever-happening h8 definitely has its work cut out.


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Stevie
Stevie


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
posted September 30, 2018 12:08 AM

bitmaid said:
( I sense I may have brought up something that prolly doesn't fit the culture here )


OMEGALUL

@Red_Flag, it's flyer by the way, not flayer.

Also, what's the point in reducing the number of creatures from 7 to 6? If anything I'd like more creatures to choose from. Really can't agree with it. Everything looks so backwards it's hard to believe it's a proposal for Heroes 8.
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bitmaid
bitmaid


Adventuring Hero
posted October 01, 2018 12:40 AM

haha Stevie omg

I think a dramatic increase of creatures is called for to redeem the franchise. Historically Heroes has around 100 creatures (neutral, upgrades included) in each game. How great would it be to double that amount? Could be more factions or more creatures in each faction, or different upgrades like in h5 (but all available to recruit, not like in h7 where you have to choose, I think most people just end up producing both in different towns anyway).

That said obviously having various upgrades is more viable in terms of work required in graphics, modeling and animation. They can make the upgrades have distinct abilities and attributes so it plays into the strategy.

Having 200+ unique creatures alone would make the game so much fun imo.

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Galaad
Galaad

Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
posted October 01, 2018 02:06 AM

bitmaid said:
Having 200+ unique creatures alone would make the game so much fun imo.



CQ has more than 500 unique creatures alone.
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NimoStar
NimoStar


Responsible
Legendary Hero
Modding the Unmoddable
posted October 01, 2018 05:52 AM
Edited by NimoStar at 05:59, 01 Oct 2018.

Those CQ creatures aren't even part of an army nor properly animated, plus they aren't normally very unique. If we go by that Pokemon Go is a masterpiece because there are so many pokemon... and each can learn many moves.

BTW, about alternate upgrades, see my proposal here: http://heroescommunity.com/viewthread.php3?TID=44636

I think H5 way with upgrades was bad since lack of a decision in progression tends to favor min-maxing. In other words you don't really have to choose... you just use what creature is the most convenient to your game in any time, and that destroys the dramatism of having two different upgrades.

If I would do "alternate upgrades", it would be in the form of choosing a PATH for the ENTIRE town. (For example, if you are Haven, you can go Path of Holy Fire to get fiery upgrades to all your creatures, or Path of Sacred Water to get healing and defensive upgrades to all your creatures. This would keep it flavorful and not just minmaxing what is convenient.
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Never changing = never improving

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lantranar
lantranar


Adventuring Hero
posted October 01, 2018 09:36 AM

NimoStar said:
BTW, about alternate upgrades, see my proposal here: http://heroescommunity.com/viewthread.php3?TID=44636



the plan for my game is exactly toward this direction, I hope you ll see it soon as im finishing the concept for it. Btw, I ll need your help as Im thinking about reverse engineering H4 as for adventure map and graphic elements. Can I pm you later?

bitmaid said:
Having 200+ unique creatures alone would make the game so much fun imo.



all depends on how diverse they are in terms of gameplay, i think. Most H1-3 creatures are vanilla. Age of wonders has huge amount of creatures but a large portion of them feels like alternate skins of one another. If all creature are hugely different like H4, I absolutely would love to have 100+.

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Galaad
Galaad

Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
posted October 01, 2018 10:48 AM

NimoStar said:
Those CQ creatures aren't even part of an army nor properly animated, plus they aren't normally very unique. If we go by that Pokemon Go is a masterpiece because there are so many pokemon... and each can learn many moves.


It's not the first time you speak about something based solely on your assumptions and not first hand experience, doesn't help much the dialogue.
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NimoStar
NimoStar


Responsible
Legendary Hero
Modding the Unmoddable
posted October 01, 2018 11:10 AM
Edited by NimoStar at 11:11, 01 Oct 2018.

Quote:
the plan for my game is exactly toward this direction, I hope you ll see it soon as im finishing the concept for it. Btw, I ll need your help as Im thinking about reverse engineering H4 as for adventure map and graphic elements. Can I pm you later?


You mean sprites?
Sure, we can already extract practically all H4 sprites.

Quote:
If all creature are hugely different like H4, I absolutely would love to have 100+.


That's a reason why I like H4 so much. But to be fair, H3 creatures were intended to be more or less veinilla when unupgraded, and became "special" with the upgrades - a "problem" H4 doesn't have. But certainly their powerful and unique creature abilities set the game apart from its predecessors.

Quote:
It's not the first time you speak about something based solely on your assumptions and not first hand experience, doesn't help much the dialogue.


its not the first time you speak publicity of CQ in an heroes discussion thread, it doesnt help much the dialogue

But please do tell me how you can have armies of thousands of fully animated CQ creatures each of which have unique mechanics, abilities, spells and attacks (stat changes or renamed "elements" which all work the same don't count), I'm dying to hear. If such is true I swear I will squander my life's savings in the game immediately :V. And if you think that's asking too much, that is exactly what H4 (And much any heroes game) already has...
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Never changing = never improving

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Galaad
Galaad

Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
posted October 01, 2018 11:40 AM
Edited by Galaad at 11:42, 01 Oct 2018.

NimoStar said:
its not the first time you speak publicity of CQ in an heroes discussion thread, it doesnt help much the dialogue



Well... We're in the Altar of Wishes subforums, with threads longing about the future of the series, so I don't find it too far-fetched but I agree with you it's not exactly on topic either. ... I only try to say "hey, you know, JVC, the guy who designed the Might and Magic games we all love, well he's doing this now, and it's awesome". I didn't mean to engage in more than this. I am not going to try to convince you on anything and it's best we leave it at this.
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red_flag
red_flag


Known Hero
posted October 01, 2018 11:52 AM
Edited by red_flag at 12:12, 01 Oct 2018.

Stevie said:
@Red_Flag, it's flyer by the way, not flayer.

Oops, corrected, thx

Stevie said:
Also, what's the point in reducing the number of creatures from 7 to 6? If anything I'd like more creatures to choose from. Really can't agree with it. Everything looks so backwards it's hard to believe it's a proposal for Heroes 8.

Why 6 is instead of 7? Ok, if briefly, just imo. More and much does not always mean better.
Firstly, I need to be at least a little realistic - it's a little bit cheaper to develop a game.
Secondly, in my experience, not so often the seventh-tier units are generally used in the multiplayer, the game ends before their appearance. Thirdly, the micromanadgemet is reduced, the gameplay is accelerated and the value of each stack is increased.

As an option, I was thinking about the possibility of using some alternative units in the addon, but not for sure about this idea because in finally it will be one way choice.

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Nimostar
Nimostar


Responsible
Legendary Hero
Modding the Unmoddable
posted October 01, 2018 01:50 PM
Edited by Nimostar at 14:27, 01 Oct 2018.

Its a thread about heroes 8 lineups. And we dont go to creture quest forums saying "there is this awesome new mobile might and magic game by ubisoft!" :v

Its not like we are unaware of the existencr of creature quest, it has even been the forum advertisement for like a year? I dont complain about the revenue but I dont think they pay you for posting

I don't have anything in particular against CQ (or you obviously) but at the same time don't like unrelated publicity in the middle of a discussion... it's a different game with completely different mechanics, so it doesn't matter how many creatures are in CQ because they are not Heroes game creatures.

*

Anyways...
Alternate creatures are not "finally a one way option" if yhey are balanced. See rts like starcraft 2. You choose your build and how to invest resources, there is not a single uber-dominant build order for a race. Same with good mobas and hero builds.

We are just badly accustomed because heroes 3 was deeply unbalanced and our mrntality didnt evolve from choice=unbalance. In that context there are only "good" and "bad" choices like logistics or eagle eye. But we need to think that in a good game choices are very nearly evenly match; so they are hard decisions each with pros and cons.
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Never changing = never improving

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bitmaid
bitmaid


Adventuring Hero
posted October 02, 2018 12:08 AM

Nimostar said exactly what I was going to say. The kiddie art style of CQ looks more like Pokemon than Heroes, and the fact that it's on mobile, an extremely limited platform compared to PC, means it's competing against fruit ninja or whatever casual game that's popular nowadays so it IS more like Pokemon than Heroes. No one needs CQ advertisement anymore, and I'll add a bit as to why.

There is a fallacy to the idea that applies both to JVC & Ubi that's these mobile titles will lead to a good Heroes PC game. It makes no sense. Think about it, if one of Ubi's mobile spinoffs or MMOs takes off, what conclusion are they going to draw? "Oh this works on mobile so we're going to abandon mobile and go back to PC"? No. They're going to churn out more mobile games to make more money. And what about JVC? Does anyone actually believe his mobile game money is going to a Heroesque PC game? That he's waiting for CQ to flop so he can move on? Quit tickling me. If JVC wants to make PC game, he'd be making PC game rn. I'm not saying he's not attached to this franchise anymore and I'm sure we'll see a great Heroes game under his direction, but him striking a good deal with Ubi is highly unlikely, because Ubisoft has heinous unfair differential treatments with its flagship IPs. And what's more, Ubi has already burnt a fkton of cash in failed spinoffs that could've been used to make a great actual game with top notch AI & 500 creatures, no joke.

To OP red_flag I say, as fans it behooves us to keep our expectations realistic, but let's not do their budgeting for them. We should not be thinking about how to minimize resources spent on developing a game or squeezing the most fun out of a half-assed released. We must demand better and not settle for shameful buggy games, and that will turn out better for everyone.

And yeah balancing and skills is absolutely crucial in making alternative upgrades work. h5 didn't do well on balancing & resulted in many dominant picks. I also feel like while choosing a path for a town is an interesting idea ( as lantranar suggested ), it depends on a lot of other factors. It's typical for players to have more than a few towns in map sizes M-XL and like I said, even if the creatures are well balanced, the best thing to do is still having every kind produced in different towns, thereby reducing the strategic value of choosing one path.


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Galaad
Galaad

Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
posted October 02, 2018 01:14 AM

For sure JVC didn't want to work with Ubi before and likely still doesn't want to -if he creates a new Heroes or Might and Magic game, he will buy the IP back first.

As for mobile gaming industry, I think the same as everyone else here. JVC made a miracle with CQ but I'll stop right there before I get more jabs.
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lantranar
lantranar


Adventuring Hero
posted October 03, 2018 11:06 PM
Edited by lantranar at 23:07, 03 Oct 2018.

Nimostar said:
Anyways...
Alternate creatures are not "finally a one way option" if yhey are balanced. See rts like starcraft 2. You choose your build and how to invest resources, there is not a single uber-dominant build order for a race. Same with good mobas and hero builds.

We are just badly accustomed because heroes 3 was deeply unbalanced and our mrntality didnt evolve from choice=unbalance. In that context there are only "good" and "bad" choices like logistics or eagle eye. But we need to think that in a good game choices are very nearly evenly match; so they are hard decisions each with pros and cons.


I had a talk with a ubisoft game designer 2 years ago. He was not directly involved with M&M franchise whatsoever but he closely watch the projects for years. He said this franchise is an interesting but nasty project people wouldnt want to be dragged into. The IP was bought because of the fanbase but the fanbase is what make it hard to try new ideas now. This game would be extremely hard to make even if some old NWC staff acquire it.

By 2002, H3 gameplay was already outdated as it contradict so many values that should be expected of a strategy game. We talked about many aspects of the game (progression, feedback loop, balance and stuffs) but about creature lineup, particularly the unit upgrade system: It was first introduced in H2 to please H1 fan, and then H3 to please H2 fan. It felt great at first, but by H3, it was already too clunky and became a chore instead. It adds little decision makings except for the first few weeks.

H4 tried to fixed this by abolishing it completely and replace it with 2 choices system.

H5 compromise by combining both upgrade and 2 choices, also some unupgraded units have different (but also equally) abilities to its counter part to encourage choices.

H6 merges several tiers into 1 and makes some units skippable.

Overall , if the upgrade is not meaningful and impactful, it should be rather gotten rid of.

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monere
monere


Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
posted October 03, 2018 11:18 PM

not for me

Quote:
This game would be extremely hard to make

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lantranar
lantranar


Adventuring Hero
posted October 03, 2018 11:52 PM

monere said:
not for me

Quote:
This game would be extremely hard to make



ofc

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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
posted October 04, 2018 05:21 AM

lantranar said:
By 2002, H3 gameplay was already outdated as it contradict so many values that should be expected of a strategy game.


I'd like to hear some examples to see if we're on the same page. Upgrade design could obviously be improved. Combat and skill system depth are also obvious. What else?
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