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Heroes Community > Library of Enlightenment > Thread: Secondary magic schools
Thread: Secondary magic schools This thread is 4 pages long: 1 2 3 4 · «PREV
Doomforge
Doomforge


Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
posted October 19, 2018 02:24 PM
Edited by Doomforge at 14:27, 19 Oct 2018.

Lth3 said:
single player games expire over time - when there is no more challenge


Of course! That's when you move to a different game.

Once I finish my "all impossible" playthrough of HoMM3, I will cease playing it. Since there is nothing more challenging to do, I'll probably never return to it.

I choose that over multiplayer because multiplaer games always degenerate into cookie cutters, "metagames" and such, where you have to play in a very specific way or you will lose to a competent player.

For instance, a lot of people play Jeebus. It has been years since I've done competitive multiplayer in Homm3, but IIRC that map was always about the early break and creature banks. In fact, creature banks hunting seem "meta" on every map where you can accumulate angels and/or wyverns.

Playing vs. the AI may be schematic, but at least you're not forced to do the same thing every game.

While I'm not anti-multiplayer (as a matter of fact I used to be a pretty dedicated online player years ago), but the thing is, you're always crammed into some sort of cookie cutter method of playing and all that's left - after a while - is to attempt the same template over and over, filling the blanks (randomness) with your own experience accumulated over the years. And after hundreds of games, a person suddenly comes to a conclusion that getting better on w1 break of Jeebus took him way more effort than it was worth it. For the time sunk into it, I could finish a dozen of games, and there's literally hundreds of amazing games out there to play.

Sorry for a bit of an off topic post.

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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
posted October 19, 2018 03:02 PM

@AncientDruids

H6 solution was already good enough, mass spell bonus give weaker effect to all and scale with spellpower. If you want full bonus you can just cast the basic spell. You could even make mass 4x4 or 5x5 area but I've tried it and it's not nearly as satisfying. Also, in a game like heroes I don't think playing around with speed is a good idea. Often +1 tile is enough to give an overwhelming advantage and +2 is plain nuts. Especially if we're talking en masse.

@Lth3

Pretty much Heroes has always been about making the best out of what you get. We don't need the game to become too restrictive, just allow for unconventional strategies to become more viable. Otherwise we end up with cookie cutter builds and the appeal dies out before too long.

That was especially true for H5. All those wonderful skillwheel combos and delicious counters? Pointless, in a real game you'll stick with the few essential skills simply because they are solid and always work. If you play single, you will probably not figure out half of the game's potential, simply because anything will work against the AI. And if you don't play some form of arena/duel map, you may be led to believe that final fights are one-sided 80% of the time. Some people were expert at navigating the map which gave them an overwhelming edge in the final battle that they didn't develop their tactical skills as much. It's always a matter of perspective and there is a lot more to the game than combat and town management. As long as you can grasp the full picture, you will have the advantage.

@Doom

I hate map specialist play. I was glad that toh player profiles reported not only results but also maps played and how many times. If your opponent specializes in a map he has played dozens of times, it is pretty hopeless. Some people had played hourglass 100 times and could clear its ridiculous garrison in week 3, you just can't do that when playing blind. I always preferred maps where you can face your opponent around week 4-5, neither too long, nor particularly unfair to specific factions.
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Lth3
Lth3


Known Hero
posted October 19, 2018 10:38 PM
Edited by Lth3 at 22:39, 19 Oct 2018.

Doomforge said:
Lth3 said:
single player games expire over time - when there is no more challenge


Of course! That's when you move to a different game.

Once I finish my "all impossible" playthrough of HoMM3, I will cease playing it. Since there is nothing more challenging to do, I'll probably never return to it.

I choose that over multiplayer because multiplaer games always degenerate into cookie cutters, "metagames" and such, where you have to play in a very specific way or you will lose to a competent player.

For instance, a lot of people play Jeebus. It has been years since I've done competitive multiplayer in Homm3, but IIRC that map was always about the early break and creature banks. In fact, creature banks hunting seem "meta" on every map where you can accumulate angels and/or wyverns.

Playing vs. the AI may be schematic, but at least you're not forced to do the same thing every game.

While I'm not anti-multiplayer (as a matter of fact I used to be a pretty dedicated online player years ago), but the thing is, you're always crammed into some sort of cookie cutter method of playing and all that's left - after a while - is to attempt the same template over and over, filling the blanks (randomness) with your own experience accumulated over the years. And after hundreds of games, a person suddenly comes to a conclusion that getting better on w1 break of Jeebus took him way more effort than it was worth it. For the time sunk into it, I could finish a dozen of games, and there's literally hundreds of amazing games out there to play.

Sorry for a bit of an off topic post.


i'm not a fan of Jebus either, and play it very rarely

there are certain templates for certain types of play. Jebus is a very particular template indeed

from the things you write i would assume poorer templates is the way to go for you - slower start and more pace as time comes

although some templates have less creature banks than others - avoiding them completely is not likely possible. if you hate them that much you could always agree on a set of rules beforehand. i myself would gladly agree to rules of playing without creature banks, if you so prefer

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NimoStar
NimoStar


Responsible
Legendary Hero
Modding the Unmoddable
posted October 20, 2018 01:27 AM
Edited by NimoStar at 07:07, 21 Oct 2018.

Quote:

Once I finish my "all impossible" playthrough of HoMM3, I will cease playing it. Since there is nothing more challenging to do, I'll probably never return to it.


You know there are hundreds of fanmade maps which are much more difficult and just as elaborate as the official campaigns, right?

Right?
...

Quote:
I choose that over multiplayer because multiplaer games always degenerate into cookie cutters, "metagames" and such, where you have to play in a very specific way or you will lose to a competent player.


In h3 that is so but nothing stops other games with better multiplayer design having a more varied metagame.

All current Heroes games have a "Lose as little as possible" approach to multiplayer, which is why I reccomended changing some core mechanics for the next game (Such as army maintenance which would kill the strategy of "Just get many creatures and don't lose any")
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Never changing = never improving

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Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted October 21, 2018 10:07 AM

Army maintenance would also solve diplomacy abuses.

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Doomforge
Doomforge


Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
posted October 21, 2018 10:25 AM
Edited by Doomforge at 10:26, 21 Oct 2018.

NimoStar said:

You know there are hundreds of fanmade maps which are much more difficult and just as elaborate as the official campaigns, right?

Right?
...


Sure I do. However, in addition to gameplay, I also enjoy plot/lore/atmosphere that the "official material" brings. Fanmade additions obviously carry no canon plot and lore, and thus are less interesting to me. Also, people like to go overboard and make maps specifically tailored to AI abuse, calling it difficult. Well, in a way, they are, but a "metagame" build around abusing the stupidity of AI is just as bad as online cookie cutters in my book.

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heymlich
heymlich


Famous Hero
posted April 29, 2019 02:38 AM
Edited by heymlich at 02:39, 29 Apr 2019.

With factions that are likely to move first (Castle, Rampart) pick Air.
With factions that are unlikely to move first (Tower, Fortress) pick Water.




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Orc
Orc


Famous Hero
posted December 16, 2019 10:44 PM
Edited by Orc at 23:30, 16 Dec 2019.

phoenix4ever said:

Prayer is a good spell, yet it can seem underwhelming compared to Haste/Slow. (But that is only because they are so damn OP)

Btw picking Water Magic only for Forgetfulness, seems a bit sad, you might be better of with Tactics instead?


why prayer is worst than haste? its just 1 speed point, and its not going to matter most of the time.

with slow though, ya slow is imba.

phoenix4ever said:
@JollyJoker Have you seen how units will sometimes move almost around the entire battlefield just to get by an obstacle, it sometimes takes a lot of time and is quite stupid to watch.

but thats the only reason I got tactics: to sea my Naga or zombies with 3 speed can still move through the whole battle field.

Salamandre said:
He is right, both multi player and decent map, air and earth are a must. Water and fire are a waste, so the might heroes having higher probabilities for water should handle that carefully.

though why would you prefer haste over prayer+clone+teleport+bless?

Edit: army maintenance as in fee cost to keep the army?

Edit: the most imbalance in heroes 3 is the late game balance, that first strike will give an overwhelming advantage.

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Otuken
Otuken


Famous Hero
posted December 17, 2019 12:47 AM
Edited by Otuken at 00:50, 17 Dec 2019.

Always Earth and Air the other ones aren't much important. Mass slow/haste really ruins games as everybody know. Always wondered how come creators of HOMM3 didn't notice that?

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Zmudziak22
Zmudziak22


Supreme Hero
Heroes 3 Fan
posted December 17, 2019 01:13 AM

Prayer give +4 a/d/s, so it's not at all, haste is much more popular, because it will show up with slow in level 1 guild, or if you are unlucky, you can get cyra/brissa as secondary hero and hire 2nd secondary hero who knows basic scholar.

Dimension Door atleast was a bit nerfed in Heroes 3 comparing to Heroes 2 when it was ridicilous with infinite spam until you have no mana. Town Portal, Fly and Dimension Door should be more expensive for cast and take more movement points.
Also i heard AI in Heores 3 was smarter in ROE but expansions ruined AI brain and tactics.
Meta skills in H3 are usually Earth, Logistics and Wisdom, other skills are not much important as Wisdom and Earth.
When i played single player i find out that Barbarians should be able to learn Water Magic, as Mass Bless or Expert Teleport work well in Stronghold, Fortress with Fire Magic is also not bad choice, as Mass Curse(reduce enemy damage range) and Mass Bloodlust help a bit with low Fortress attack points

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Orc
Orc


Famous Hero
posted December 18, 2019 06:32 PM
Edited by Orc at 18:40, 18 Dec 2019.

Otuken said:
Always Earth and Air the other ones aren't much important. Mass slow/haste really ruins games as everybody know. Always wondered how come creators of HOMM3 didn't notice that?


If you see chance to learn earth, all towns have good chance of learning them, and second most likely to be learned is Air (in terms of chances), while water cannot be learned with barbs and overlords, and fire cannot be learned by rangers and beast masters.

so afterall, perhaps they designers noticed that Eart>Air>Water>Fire. But maybe they were too into the development of the game to realize that, and so they tried to fix it by making fire and water less likely to be learned.

Now to answer OP,

I prefer Earth + Water for prayer as substitute of haste, among other many useful water spells.

mass cure is most important of them, but also teleport for hydra and gorgon.

I kinda like mass curse too. Now, with the unlimited SS plugin of Era II, I take all magic schools I can get. Everything. (when all mastered you will be able to cast 2 spells per round)

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Doomforge
Doomforge


Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
posted December 19, 2019 12:42 PM

Prayer:

1. requires wisdom (meh)
2. is actually damn hard to get, it's like planning a build around armageddon... I mean, Arma is nice, but are you going to saveload till you get it in MP like in single player? most likely not
3. will not work on some units like the undead,
4. the cost of L4 guild is really high and in addition to praying (lol pun) to RNGesus to even get it, you also have to gather a damn lot of resources along the way and most towns have a better way to use all that stuff.

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JoonasTo
JoonasTo


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
What if Elvin was female?
posted December 19, 2019 01:06 PM

Or you start your game with loynis and aine as your two tavern heroes...


Muahahhahahaha
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Doomforge
Doomforge


Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
posted December 19, 2019 02:25 PM

But then you play the RNG game too, only for a better hero
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CountBezuhoff
CountBezuhoff


Supreme Hero
Nihil sub sole novum
posted December 19, 2019 09:21 PM

Doomforge said:
Prayer:

1. requires wisdom (meh)
2. is actually damn hard to get, it's like planning a build around armageddon... I mean, Arma is nice, but are you going to saveload till you get it in MP like in single player? most likely not
3. will not work on some units like the undead,
4. the cost of L4 guild is really high and in addition to praying (lol pun) to RNGesus to even get it, you also have to gather a damn lot of resources along the way and most towns have a better way to use all that stuff.



5. It costs a lot more mana

Doomforge said:
But then you play the RNG game too, only for a better hero




The Count
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