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Heroes Community > Library of Enlightenment > Thread: Secondary magic schools
Thread: Secondary magic schools This thread is 4 pages long: 1 2 3 4 · «PREV / NEXT»
Doomforge
Doomforge


Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
posted October 18, 2018 11:47 AM

I can't really comment on PvP lately, since I really dislike the whole "creature bank meta" and resort to playing vs. AI, but mass curse/bloodlust do feel lacking compared to haste/slow, and mass spells are stupidly powerful in this game.

Water would be much better if prayer wasn't so hard to get in a regular game.

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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted October 18, 2018 12:19 PM

See, that's the problem with this kind of thing.

If you cannot win the game in a pvp with roughly equal opponents, without getting both Air and Earth, the others being a waste, than the game is utter crap, because it all depends on if and how fast you get certain skills and spells, and it that case it's WAY too random where it really counts.

This is fairly obvious for the movement spells TP, DD, and Fly (to a lesser extent for Water Walk as well), but if they are banned, then you have to ban slow and Haste as well, and for the same reason.

The alternative is to rebalance them. Make TP a lot more expensive, make it Level 5, limit use to once per day - whatever. DD, Fly and WW the same, but also Slow and Haste.

Practically spoken, for Slow and Haste the difference between advanced and expert is way too big. Simple Haste gives 3 Hexes for 6 Mana, which is 2 Mana per Hex distance your troops can go more. Basic just reduces cost to 5, so this is a gain of just 16 2/3 %. Advanced goes to 5 Hexes for 5 Mana, so we are now at 1 Mana per Hex gained. An increease of 100% over having no Air at all. Expert will potentially make that 35 Hexes or a 600% gain over Advanced, which is utterly ridiculous. Even if all troops got only +2 Hexes, this would still potentially be up to 14 hexes gain and a plus of nearly 200%.

This would make it necessary to have BOTH Haste and Mass Haste in the spell book.

Same with Slow and same with Prayer, but you'd generally have to rescale the other Mass spells as well.

I cannot understand why this hasn't been modded, yet.

I mean, the additional thing is, a spell like Expert Berserk may kill things immediately - but you have to get it first, which may prove impossible. Mass/Slow will always show immediately in the cheapest guilds and shrines, so that sucks.

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phoenix4ever
phoenix4ever


Supreme Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted October 18, 2018 01:24 PM

JollyJoker said:

I cannot understand why this hasn't been modded, yet.


I did it myself, maybe you should too?

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Doomforge
Doomforge


Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
posted October 18, 2018 01:43 PM

Well, HotA did not change haste/slow despite addressing other problems with the game such as Phoenix growth, I think they should fix those spells in the first place. perhaps removing their mass versions and replacing them with a (more potent) single target spells would do the trick.

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monere
monere


Famous Hero
posted October 18, 2018 02:44 PM

Quote:
a game is a great one when so many sunk so many hours in


Or when they (>>> ME <<< lose the college because of it

Quote:
Water would be much better if prayer wasn't so hard to get in a regular game


and if Prayer was better than haste because, let's face it, you always cast mass haste before prayer due to the superior speed of haste.

Assuming you are expert in both water and air and have both haste and prayer you still cast haste before prayer most of the time, which is not normal when you consider that haste is level 1 spell and prayer level 4. Not fair indeed...

Quote:
If you cannot win the game in a pvp with roughly equal opponents, without getting both Air and Earth, the others being a waste, than the game is utter crap


Needs improvement (have you tried WoG by the way?), yes, but "utter crap" it is not, no matter how much you're hating it

Quote:
Make TP a lot more expensive, make it Level 5


good points

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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
What if Elvin was female?
posted October 18, 2018 03:22 PM

I don't think JJ hates the game at all, he just (rightly)disapproves of the way some things were designed. But that's only a big deal if we are considering competitive multiplayer. Mass spells are but one waterdrop in a sea of imbalances ^^ Still, a lovable game by any count.
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monere
monere


Famous Hero
posted October 18, 2018 03:43 PM
Edited by monere at 15:50, 18 Oct 2018.

Someone who constantly complains about a game sounds like he's hating the game, therefore he's a hater. I might be wrong, though... I don't know...

EDIT: tomorrow I will relocate abroad in order to get some money so I can sustain myself and hopefully get my own place and have precious time with myself to finish the game I'm having in mind and show you all what a kicka55 strategic game looks like. I know that you don't give a 5hit about the fact that I'll be away from the computer for at least 1 month (maybe more if things don't go well with my abroad job), but I'm still telling you this so you won't believe that I've chickened out or something. And, as soon as I have a stable job and a place of my own where I can quietly daydream and weave plots I will put the game on paper and will look into getting money for it, and if things go according to the plan which I don't have yet we will all be playing the best TBS, heroes-like game EVER, day and night until exhaustion. Just gimme some time

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Drakon-Deus
Drakon-Deus


Legendary Hero
Quién Sabe?
posted October 18, 2018 03:58 PM

monere said:
I know that you don't give a 5hit about the fact that I'll be away from the computer for at least 1 month (maybe more if things don't go well with my abroad job


Hey, I care. I hope you'll be back here soon.

Good journey!
____________
Buy dynamite! Dynamite!

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monere
monere


Famous Hero
posted October 18, 2018 04:02 PM
Edited by monere at 16:04, 18 Oct 2018.

Quote:
Hey, I care. I hope you'll be back here soon.
Good journey!


Ha! Thanks, man!

I will definitely come back as soon as I get my first 2-3 wages and be able to buy a laptop and get access to internet. Once I do these I'll be back here to see what's new.

Meanwhile, good luck to you, too (to ALL OF YOU, I mean) in whatever you're doing as long as it's not harmful for others. If it's harmful I don't wish you good luck

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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted October 18, 2018 04:36 PM

Elvin said:
I don't think JJ hates the game at all, he just (rightly)disapproves of the way some things were designed. But that's only a big deal if we are considering competitive multiplayer. Mass spells are but one waterdrop in a sea of imbalances ^^ Still, a lovable game by any count.
Very true.

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OhforfSake
OhforfSake


Promising
Legendary Hero
Initiate
posted October 18, 2018 05:29 PM

Best wishes Monere, you are always welcome back here no matter if you succeed or not.

And please remember to prioritize your own well being above your ambitions.. many of us have or have had similar ambitions, but in the end, it is not our dreams that are important, it is ourselves and those we choose to love.
____________
Living time backwards

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monere
monere


Famous Hero
posted October 18, 2018 06:11 PM

I do prioritize my own being because without it in good shape I can't take care of my ambitions.

Thanks for your wish. The sooner I get access to internet and I'm able to buy a decent laptop this is the first site I'll access. Actually, the second, because the first will be the email, but even so, it says a lot about my priorities

Also, by the time my own version of heroes is created I hope someone else steps in with another version / game cause I really wanna see new creatures, skill, and spells, and immerse into the mythological atmosphere after the flops that have been H6 and H7. I think I've read on this forum something about a Heroes 8 coming along (or being worked on), but I'm not sure... If it's true I hope it will be launched (unbugged, I mean) in a couple of years. It would be cool

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Otuken
Otuken


Known Hero
posted October 18, 2018 06:29 PM

Counter spells like haste/slow should just cancel each other.

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phe
phe


Famous Hero
Life and Freedom
posted October 18, 2018 09:04 PM
Edited by phe at 22:20, 18 Oct 2018.

As Mass Haste and Mass Slow is so OP and lack of Earth and Air annoying let's make it this way: any hero who learnt Slow or Haste will have it in mass version even without Earth and Air but on none level as only hero has Expert Wisdom...  
http://lafe.co.nf/spells.html

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NimoStar
NimoStar


Promising
Supreme Hero
Modding the Unmoddable
posted October 19, 2018 12:07 AM
Edited by NimoStar at 00:10, 19 Oct 2018.

Quote:
I also wish Tactics was faster/easier to use. Teleporting units or creating and saving some "templates" you have used before and make them quickly selectable again would be nice.


This is actually an excellent idea. You can both:

1- Save the moving animation, it doesn't serve any purpose here.

2- Save the positions of creatures according to their used creature slot in tactics pre-arrangements.

***

Also, you can see H3 balance is broken in every sense (Not only magic skills, but also towns, spells, heroes, skills, etc. which are in no sense balanced with eachother) without the need to "Hate" the game. Actually I love many games with broken balance, it is just a sad fact of life. But there are other aspects in the game which can still be nice, beautiful and bountiful, such as great replayability, matchmaking, carefully drawn and consistent graphics, sense of adventure, superb soundtrack and immersive, memorable graphic design...
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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
What if Elvin was female?
posted October 19, 2018 08:54 AM

Just make tactics like H5, problem solved.

Quote:
http://lafe.co.nf/spells.html

Too many pointless details imo. Fairer yes but who's going to remember all this? H3 is great because you can keep track of the variables, were you to increase the variables by tenfold I wouldn't even bother looking them up, much less calculate costs. I doubt I am alone in this.

Spell bonus per x casts has a primary downside. Everyone will have an incentive to delay combat and cast more and more spells, making turns longer. Harmful for online gameplay.
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RerryR
RerryR


Promising
Known Hero
posted October 19, 2018 09:47 AM

Elvin said:


http://lafe.co.nf/spells.html

Spell bonus per x casts has a primary downside. Everyone will have an incentive to delay combat and cast more and more spells, making turns longer. Harmful for online gameplay.


Set some rules and constraints for the level up and you are fine.  It can be tied to Hero level, Magic School, Spell Power or times you are allowed to level the spell in combat.
It also doesn't mean you have to tenfold the numbers.
The fun you have when leveling your spells outweighs the "longer turns" problem by far and let's be honest, this mechanic will never make it in any official H3 online play, so it's not really a point discussing it.  

This is a good time for some shameless self-promotion everybody is free to try out the Spell Trainer Mod for ERA2 where you can exactly to this because I have coded a good part of what is suggested on that website.

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phe
phe


Famous Hero
Life and Freedom
posted October 19, 2018 10:22 AM
Edited by phe at 11:07, 19 Oct 2018.

If you use it you remember, if not you don't remember...
it could be info displayed on right-click how many cast left to get special bonus...
getting 1% bonus to offensive spells is always nice...
if buff/debuff spells cost is dependend on stack size you would not cast them so many times...
neither if every round of battle would cost you 1% of your daily movement points...
just play like usual and you will get some bonuses some time...

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Lth3
Lth3


Known Hero
posted October 19, 2018 01:16 PM
Edited by Lth3 at 13:19, 19 Oct 2018.

NimoStar said:
Also, you can see H3 balance is broken in every sense (Not only magic skills, but also towns, spells, heroes, skills, etc. which are in no sense balanced with eachother) without the need to "Hate" the game. Actually I love many games with broken balance, it is just a sad fact of life. But there are other aspects in the game which can still be nice, beautiful and bountiful, such as great replayability, matchmaking, carefully drawn and consistent graphics, sense of adventure, superb soundtrack and immersive, memorable graphic design...


2 disbalances make a balance, did you ever try thinking about that? i may have the "worst" town and "worst" hero, but if i manage to arrange my opportunities right i end up winning

i would also doubt that there exists such a game where every character, every ability, every zone is equally strong. how then would you gain advantage in such a game? such reasoning sounds silly

heroes 3 is a game where a lot depends on the map you play and the surrounding objects you get. over time AI numbs you down and you start losing such sense of perception. then everything loses dynamic because you know a way to beat a computer - and you always stick to that way, because it plays the same way every single time

single player games expire over time - when there is no more challenge - and that's a sad fact of games also

ps.: i'm not talking about Diplomacy

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AncientDruids
AncientDruids


Known Hero
BEware THe DRuids
posted October 19, 2018 02:07 PM

Reading JJ's percentage gain on different levels of Haste, I came up with another way to nerf mass spells.
The basic idea is to make mass spells being cast on selected units. They'll get the normal advanced bonus and duraton of the buff/debuff.
Now, the rest of the army is affected by a reduced effect and duration. To take the Haste Example, selected unit would get +5 speed for X turns (where X is the Spell Power) and the rest of the army: +2 speed for flat 3 turns.

Sure, when you have 6 units, the effectiveness increase is still over 300%, but when you take the lower duration into account, it slightly evens out.

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