Heroes of Might and Magic Community
visiting hero! Register | Today's Posts | Games | Search! | FAQ/Rules | AvatarList | MemberList | Profile


Age of Heroes Headlines:  
5 Oct 2016: Heroes VII development comes to an end.. - read more
6 Aug 2016: Troubled Heroes VII Expansion Release - read more
26 Apr 2016: Heroes VII XPack - Trial by Fire - Coming out in June! - read more
17 Apr 2016: Global Alternative Creatures MOD for H7 after 1.8 Patch! - read more
7 Mar 2016: Romero launches a Piano Sonata Album Kickstarter! - read more
19 Feb 2016: Heroes 5.5 RC6, Heroes VII patch 1.7 are out! - read more
13 Jan 2016: Horn of the Abyss 1.4 Available for Download! - read more
17 Dec 2015: Heroes 5.5 update, 1.6 out for H7 - read more
23 Nov 2015: H7 1.4 & 1.5 patches Released - read more
31 Oct 2015: First H7 patches are out, End of DoC development - read more
5 Oct 2016: Heroes VII development comes to an end.. - read more
[X] Remove Ads
LOGIN:     Username:     Password:         [ Register ]
New Server | HOMM1: info forum | HOMM2: info forum | HOMM3: info forum | HOMM4: info forum | HOMM5: info forum | MMH6: wiki forum | MMH7: wiki forum
Heroes Community > Heroes 3.5 - WoG and Beyond > Thread: The Very Definition of Boner Killer
Thread: The Very Definition of Boner Killer This thread is 5 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 · NEXT»
Gandalf196
Gandalf196


Adventuring Hero
posted January 03, 2019 01:36 AM

The Very Definition of Boner Killer


____________
All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us.

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
MKC
MKC

Tavern Dweller
posted January 03, 2019 01:49 PM
Edited by MKC at 14:09, 03 Jan 2019.

Gandalf196 said:



And that's why I disable Eagle Eye and First Aid in all my templates. Like.. I'm not an enemy to myself to play with broken / useless game mechanics when I can just easily remove them.
____________

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted January 03, 2019 02:18 PM
Edited by Salamandre at 14:19, 03 Jan 2019.

The very definition of noob: picking a sorcery specialist warlock then complain he gets worthless skills.

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
AlfWithCake
AlfWithCake


Adventuring Hero
posted January 03, 2019 06:14 PM

Come on, sal, maybe he just wants to have fun with spells. A grand bonus of 15% dmg at level 20 is not that worthless, if you just like spells, but I just would play RerryR magic modes.

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Ghost
Ghost


Supreme Hero
Therefore I am
posted January 03, 2019 09:18 PM

Nope, if you can play chess. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=umZVQsXoQLE Nowadays computer is a powerful, if video game developers could take a power, I want to learn/know Heroes, how should I know warlock should take first aid or eagle eye than heroes.thelazy.net tells about chances of secondary skills. 1970's computer games were very hard. In the 1990's games were very easy. Are we stupid now? But disabled player can't play them. In Russia they call developmental disorder in ice hockey or chess, when they never learnt to ice hockey or chess, and never been successful. I think so video game developers are waiting for 10 years forth. A new generation can play shining games. Do you know that your IQ is less and less, when researcher said person's IQ, if he/she bore in the 1970's, he/she got a normal 100, and he/she learns life, chess or ice hockey. It will stay 100 or to less 10 in every 10 years. If he/she never learnt to write, etc His/her IQ is about 50. Do you understand?. Ok how you get a more IQ? You should be wide without developmental disorder. I think a drug helps listening disorder. When they gave theory in chess and ice hockey. And then coach gave the evolution. Ok you can play Chaotic Event with Rampart like Norwegian Carlsen.
____________
Fight MWMs - stand teach

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
revolut1oN
revolut1oN


Famous Hero
posted January 04, 2019 12:28 AM

Salamandre said:
The very definition of noob: picking a sorcery specialist warlock then complain he gets worthless skills.


Can't see anything wrong about it. As long as Malekith gets nice skills like fast Logistics or Earth he can very well be a main hero. Maybe thats the case here, he just got this crap choice later hence the OP frustration.

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted January 04, 2019 12:41 AM

Doomforge posted in the other thread a similar screen with Crag getting choice between eagle and first aid. That is worth showing because is very rare.

Now, warlock has very high chances to be offered eagle eye, mysticism, scholar, then still serious chances for learning and first aid so being in a situation where 2 crap skills are offered at once is not a surprise, it will happen often with this class. Thus my point, if you pick warlock (and many other classes), don't play shocked when probabilities kick in.
____________
Era II mods and utilities

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted January 04, 2019 11:07 AM

Complete nonsense.

It's been noobish play that got him into this mess. If you look at this a little more closely, then you'll see that this is Malekith's 8th level gain, which means he got 7 before. That in turn means, OP was noobish enough to actually fill Malekith up with Expert Wisdom, Expert Sorcery and another Expert Skill we don't know about, making the current level a roll of the dice.

Highest probability for Warlocks is (apart from Sorcery and Wisdom) Ballistics, Eagle Eye, Estates, Intelligence, Mysticism, Scholar, with Diplomacy, Earth Magic, Fire Magic, First Aid, Leadership, Learning, and  Navigation being probable skills as well.

Knowing that, and knowing that you should avoid a situation where you have to pick between two new skills, which means you have to pick ACCEPTABLE (bold) skills when they appear (if less probable good skills appear, all the better, of course).

Since Kith starts with Wisdom and Sorcery anyway, at start you have 4 guaranteed choices between Wis/Sorc and Basic X. If you look at the 13 highest priority skills above, you'll see that there are 7 acceptable ones (with highest priority being split at 50/50.

That means, when you start with Malekith, you accept a build that has:

Wisdom
Sorcery

and 6 out of

Ballistics
Estates
Intelligence
Diplomacy
Earth Magic
Fire Magic
Leadership

Obviously, if Air Magic, Armorer, Logistics, Offense, Tactics and Water Magic should be offered, they ARE a valid pick, making the build better, Pathfinding or Archery being situational.

Now, OP obviously accepted ONE Basic X offer of the first 7 offers, and I VERY seriously doubt that out of those named ACCEPTABLE only 1 has been offered (A Magic school will have been offered as a matter of course).

The rule of thumb here is, that you have THREE level gains to pick a new skill (with 1 "in reserve"), which means that chances are QUITE good to get acceptable skills.

Claiming that you shouldn't complain when you pick "Warlocks and other classes) when you get such a pick, is noobish.

Of course, that's the reason why Jeddite is such a difficult pick: You start with Advanced Wisdom. Not only do you have just ONE "safe" skill pick, Sorcery is added to the pool of highly probable new skill offers, which means, more or less, you should put Sorcery onto the list of acceptable skills for Jeddite.

And by the way:

Quote:
Doomforge posted in the other thread a similar screen with Crag getting choice between eagle and first aid. That is worth showing because is very rare.


Same thing: Crag starts with Advanced Offense. There is just ONE safe pick: level 2 will give Expert Offense and Basic X. Learning, Luck and Mysticism have OK chances to appear, so when you pick Expert Offense first, next one may backfire. Sure, Eagle Eye and First Aid are both unlikely skills, but Learning and Mysticism CAN happen.

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
revolut1oN
revolut1oN


Famous Hero
posted January 04, 2019 11:25 AM

What you say is true, but at the same time it is not. I mean, basically it is, but in reality in modern multiplayer there is no such thing as a safe build, also Water magic is never a valid pick unfortunately. Let me explain.

Consider this. For the sake of simplicity we play Dungeon, mirror Jebus, pick Alamar as a main hero.

Now, Alamar has 1 very strong skill being scholar making a great synergy with his specialty, one kinda useless on Jebus being Wisdom and high chance for a lot of bad skills.
We get crap skills until level 3 so lets say we are forced to pump scholar up to expert to avoid thrashing him early on. That's like actually 80% cases when playing such hero btw.
Then we get lucky and on 4th level get Earth. Now, as breaking 1 day later can mean instant defeat since the gameplay level skyrocketed recently, we are forced to max this Earth asap, skip other skills even if offered offense, logistics or intelligence. That can allow us to break for example 116.

What I mean: now tempo is what matters. As long as maxing certain skill (mostly Earth or Logistics with current balance) allows you to get some big banks or do some OP chains then you are very likely to just skip so called 'safe build' and go for high risk high gain scenario.

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted January 04, 2019 11:57 AM

revolut1oN said:
What you say is true, but at the same time it is not. I mean, basically it is, but in reality in modern multiplayer there is no such thing as a safe build, also Water magic is never a valid pick unfortunately. Let me explain.

Consider this. For the sake of simplicity we play Dungeon, mirror Jebus, pick Alamar as a main hero.

Now, Alamar has 1 very strong skill being scholar making a great synergy with his specialty, one kinda useless on Jebus being Wisdom and high chance for a lot of bad skills.
We get crap skills until level 3 so lets say we are forced to pump scholar up to expert to avoid thrashing him early on. That's like actually 80% cases when playing such hero btw.
Then we get lucky and on 4th level get Earth. Now, as breaking 1 day later can mean instant defeat since the gameplay level skyrocketed recently, we are forced to max this Earth asap, skip other skills even if offered offense, logistics or intelligence. That can allow us to break for example 116.

What I mean: now tempo is what matters. As long as maxing certain skill (mostly Earth or Logistics with current balance) allows you to get some big banks or do some OP chains then you are very likely to just skip so called 'safe build' and go for high risk high gain scenario.

That's kind of, well, silly:

1) I'm not sure whether anyone actually plays with RANDOM hero in multiplayer, but IF you do and IF you play templates and settings that force you to a) get a spcific skill fast and b) get it to expert, then what you do is gambling, not playing a game of skill.

2) If you play with CHOSEN hero, picking Malekith is a gamble in the first place and going for expert Earth (the 3rd skill) is inviting desaster.

Generally spoken, playing templates that reduce the game to getting the right skills ASAP (and force you to disregard perfectly viable skills) is utter folly. Or, to phrase it differently, if you need to get a specific skill set fast, it's not about playing the game, but picking the town/hero combination offering the best chances to actually get it (fastest).

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
MKC
MKC

Tavern Dweller
posted January 05, 2019 10:45 AM
Edited by MKC at 10:51, 05 Jan 2019.

JollyJoker said:

2) If you play with CHOSEN hero, picking Malekith is a gamble in the first place and going for expert Earth (the 3rd skill) is inviting desaster.

Generally spoken, playing templates that reduce the game to getting the right skills ASAP (and force you to disregard perfectly viable skills) is utter folly. Or, to phrase it differently, if you need to get a specific skill set fast, it's not about playing the game, but picking the town/hero combination offering the best chances to actually get it (fastest).


Thing is you first need to actually know all these mechanics, and they're not obvious.. you'd have to do some digging to have all this info. Saying something is noobish when you have all this knowledge while other person probably doesn't, it's just doesn't help anyone in this situation.

And not everyone has the will or the time to research the game so deeply either. It's understandable, I'd say it's more of a flaw in the game - hiding a lot of necessary info.
Disabling broken skills is the next best solution while Hota team hasn't fixed them yet. Besides there are heroes who are specialists with Eagle Eye and First Aid, meaning that they will still have it, regardless if you disable the skill in the template. These are undesirable skills no matter how you look at them, and since it's never been this easy to disable them - there's really no reason to keep them on. Same goes for Diplomacy if you play with Tournament Rules on. Learning is garbage too. Others can be useful / situational.
____________

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted January 05, 2019 12:55 PM

It was an answer to this:
Salamandre said:
The very definition of noob: picking a sorcery specialist warlock then complain he gets worthless skills.
and this:
Quote:
Now, warlock has very high chances to be offered eagle eye, mysticism, scholar, then still serious chances for learning and first aid so being in a situation where 2 crap skills are offered at once is not a surprise, it will happen often with this class. Thus my point, if you pick warlock (and many other classes), don't play shocked when probabilities kick in.


Because that has nothing to do with OP's problem and is wrong anyway.

You can look at skill probabilities - no secret about it. For the actual case of Malekith I quote:
Quote:
If a magic hero (except an Elementalist) hasn't been offered a Magic school yet, he will be offered one on levels 3, 6, 9… (i.e. every three levels). If he gets offered a Magic school on one of other levels (according to the probability table above), the counter will be reset: e.g. if he is offered Magic school at level 4, it will be also offered on 7, 10, 13…, etc. unless the counter is reset.

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted January 05, 2019 01:20 PM

its not even worth answering. Wasting so much saliva to end with same conclusions as me but somehow pretend yours is the correct.

JollyJoker said:

It's been noobish play that got him into this mess.




 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted January 05, 2019 01:42 PM

No, you wrote just nonsense. Specifically:

Quote:
Now, warlock has very high chances to be offered eagle eye, mysticism, scholar, then still serious chances for learning and first aid, so being in a situation where 2 crap skills are offered at once is not a surprise, it will happen often with this class.


The part in Italics is RIGHT. The conclusion in Bold is plain nonsense, because being in a situation where 2 crap skills are offered will happen only when you have no idea what you are doing (or don't care or gamble). In fact hero development is all about AVOIDING to come into a situation where you are offered 2 new schools, because it's a situation when you have no control. Exception: your last offer of a magic school skill was 3 (4) levels ago.

Which means you called someone a noob for all the wrong (noobish) reasons. Which is more noobish in my book.

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
NimoStar
NimoStar


Promising
Supreme Hero
Modding the Unmoddable
posted January 05, 2019 03:53 PM

I think what ghosts says is true even if he can't explain himself.

Ai development in games has been hampered for far too long.

H3 is a perfect game for AI since it is all digital (fixed numbers), no twitch action, predictable variables, lots of computer-reasable information, and turn-based.

In the 90's there was no neural networks of use. Today computers could learn to play H3 via repetition.

See how it works for starcraft
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s0RbMn0ubU4

(BWAPI btw, anyone can use it)

____________
Discover H4 Greatest Mod!
https://www.moddb.com/mods/greatest-mod/downloads
(Also biggest of only two 2 mods for HOMM IV)

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
MKC
MKC

Tavern Dweller
posted January 05, 2019 04:34 PM

JollyJoker said:

You can look at skill probabilities - no secret about it.


See that's what I'm talking about. Why should a person go to a wiki, look at all these numbers and try to figure out how to level a hero he likes to play? This is not intuitive. When you can just go to RMG template editor, remove these skills from levelup rotation and done. That's my point here.

It's cool that you know Heroes mechanics so well, but it's just not everyone's cup of tea to want to learn all that stuff.

____________

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted January 06, 2019 09:00 AM

Look, I'm not going to start a debate about what fun means or that people have been playing the game just fine without the RMG template editor or anything else - not even about the probabilities for skills to check, not in the first place at least.

Because the main thing here is that the screen shows a pick between

BASIC X or BASIC Y.

Probabilities aside - having to pick between two basic skills is what you want to AVOID, because the moment you do you LOSE CONTROL over the development of the hero, EDITOR OR NOT, because obviously anything can happen in that case, ruining the whole game (because, another thing you have to know, reloading would produce the same result - you'd have to go back to an earlier level-up and pick differently to change the development path).

Because, you know, there isn't just Eagle Eye or First Aid you don't want.

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Macron1
Macron1


Supreme Hero
posted January 06, 2019 09:57 AM

JollyJoker said:
Look, I'm not going to start a debate about what fun means or that people have been playing the game just fine without the RMG template editor or anything else - not even about the probabilities for skills to check, not in the first place at least.

Because the main thing here is that the screen shows a pick between

BASIC X or BASIC Y.

Probabilities aside - having to pick between two basic skills is what you want to AVOID, because the moment you do you LOSE CONTROL over the development of the hero, EDITOR OR NOT, because obviously anything can happen in that case, ruining the whole game (because, another thing you have to know, reloading would produce the same result - you'd have to go back to an earlier level-up and pick differently to change the development path).

Because, you know, there isn't just Eagle Eye or First Aid you don't want.



It's a mean part of a game. You can fail to make the great hero and can make medium or even outsider character. It's a part of HoMM3 fun.

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
phoenix4ever
phoenix4ever


Supreme Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted January 06, 2019 10:40 AM

So which of these awesome skills did you choose Gandalf?

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
RerryR
RerryR


Promising
Known Hero
posted January 06, 2019 11:05 AM
Edited by RerryR at 11:12, 06 Jan 2019.

In WoG I really like First Aid when it revives some lost troops after combat. It's convenient and suits the skill itself.
You can do quick combat and don't have to replay if you lost a few of your fast troops. A good solution to buff the skill.
What also would be good if the skill would increase the life of your troops.

Basic + 3% HP
Advanced + 4% HP
Expert + 5% HP

et voilà - no more complaining when choosing between First Aid and Eagle Eye. End of discussion; saves ourself 100 pages of arguing and you can keep your Boner

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Jump To: « Prev Thread . . . Next Thread » This thread is 5 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 · NEXT»
Post New Poll    Post New Topic    Post New Reply

Page compiled in 0.0704 seconds