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Heroes Community > Heroes 3.5 - WoG and Beyond > Thread: The Very Definition of Boner Killer
Thread: The Very Definition of Boner Killer This thread is 5 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 · «PREV / NEXT»
Ghost
Ghost


Supreme Hero
Therefore I am
posted January 08, 2019 05:32 AM

OP water, blind and resurrection. Not snow and haste. When tactics or slow vs haste. Example of legion nagas, you don't need to use a slow, berserk. Slow and haste for stronghold and fortress. You should create fatigue and slow, and then haste and speed. Do you have to hard understand strategies?
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fred79
fred79


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
posted January 08, 2019 08:14 AM

Gandalf196 said:
But that goes directly against this topic


what the hell? i could have sworn this was in the vw; that's why i was snowing around. my bad. that's enough off-topic from me.

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Maurice
Maurice

Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
posted January 08, 2019 10:53 AM

Ghost said:
Example of legion nagas, you don't need to use a slow, berserk.


That depends on how the Nagas are distributed. I remember a fight in one of the campaigns of Armageddons' Blade, where you had to defeat 4000 Nagas. They were spread across 7 stacks when you engaged them. You had to start with Mass Slow, or you would get defeated.
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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted January 08, 2019 11:16 AM

Level 1 spells shouldn't be that decisive that regularly.

I'd have no problem with Haste Slow being L1 and Mass Level being on basic level and adding a Fire spell akin to Prayer, something like "Curse of the Abyss"(L4) or whatever that would be a mirror of Prayer.

The advantage would be the cumulativeness of the spells (Slow-CotA; Haste-Prayer), but needing 2 expert magic schools for decisive magic action in that regard.

You should have good reason to go for high level spells, and not just because of movement, that being regularly banned for no apparent reason (when you consider the Haste/Slow situation).

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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
What if Elvin was female?
posted January 08, 2019 11:28 AM

Honestly even +2 speed for all units would be good enough for a lvl1 spell. But the more drastic the change, the more people will complain
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Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted January 08, 2019 12:10 PM

Some people focus too much on minor issues, like slow being op. It is available to everyone, so once both have, the game is entirely about how to to break faster, to get less casualties, to chain better and master the map faster. Like every other strategy game. If slow was indeed a game break, you would have good and experienced players seek for an issue, then Hota trying to innovate. Nobody in the active community cares about. This is not to say that those complaining are noobs (except JJ of course), but try to look from a larger perspective or watch some good battles and adventure map replays.

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phoenix4ever
phoenix4ever


Supreme Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted January 08, 2019 12:53 PM

JollyJoker said:


I'd have no problem with Haste Slow being L1 and Mass Level being on basic level and adding a Fire spell akin to Prayer, something like "Curse of the Abyss"(L4) or whatever that would be a mirror of Prayer.

The advantage would be the cumulativeness of the spells (Slow-CotA; Haste-Prayer), but needing 2 expert magic schools for decisive magic action in that regard.

Yes, I have thought about it for years. A level 4 Fire spell that works like a reverse Prayer. I would call it Damnation or Condemnation though. Fire Magic also only has 18 spells, while the other schools have 19, so Fire actually deserves one more spell.

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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted January 08, 2019 12:54 PM

It's getting absurd now.

If you were right, the thing to do would be to mod all heroes to start with Basic or Advanced Earth Magic and Slow, because in that case much more of the game would be entirely about the things you mention with a view on "playing the map better" and less about the getting to the point of "once you have".

Remember the golden rule? Things that are a must-have for everyone are REDUNDANT, because they don't leave you any options.

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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted January 08, 2019 12:56 PM

phoenix4ever said:
JollyJoker said:


I'd have no problem with Haste Slow being L1 and Mass Level being on basic level and adding a Fire spell akin to Prayer, something like "Curse of the Abyss"(L4) or whatever that would be a mirror of Prayer.

The advantage would be the cumulativeness of the spells (Slow-CotA; Haste-Prayer), but needing 2 expert magic schools for decisive magic action in that regard.

Yes, I have thought about it for years. A level 4 Fire spell that works like a reverse Prayer. I would call it Damnation or Condemnation though. Fire Magic also only has 18 spells, while the other schools have 19, so Fire actually deserves one more spell.
I don't really care about the name; Damnation sounds pretty good to me.

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Ghost
Ghost


Supreme Hero
Therefore I am
posted January 08, 2019 03:27 PM

Maurice said:
Ghost said:
Example of legion nagas, you don't need to use a slow, berserk.


That depends on how the Nagas are distributed. I remember a fight in one of the campaigns of Armageddons' Blade, where you had to defeat 4000 Nagas. They were spread across 7 stacks when you engaged them. You had to start with Mass Slow, or you would get defeated.


You brought a good information. It really depends your army size. Even if Dracon comes averange Joe like nagaslayer does sorrow, blind, teleport or force field, etc and he won the battle. You must to play AB again. Yes you should be skillful player. Remember one naga does 30 damage, you can resurrect Titan then. But Dracon really need one, two or nothing spells.
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Doomforge
Doomforge


Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
posted January 08, 2019 06:55 PM

JollyJoker said:
It's getting absurd now.
Remember the golden rule? Things that are a must-have for everyone are REDUNDANT, because they don't leave you any options.




although a lot of fanmade maps would be unplayable with slow removed from the game. Mapmakers obviously expect you to use it.
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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted January 08, 2019 07:50 PM

I don't think it should be out. I just think that if the game is dominated by Level 1 spells then something isn't right.

So the effect of Mass Slow/Haste is too big considering the fact that it's lowest level. You do not need Wisdom for them, in other words, making them ideally suited for MIGHT heroes, which is obviously counter-productive.

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NimoStar
NimoStar


Promising
Supreme Hero
Modding the Unmoddable
posted January 08, 2019 09:27 PM

Well seeing as this is a modding subforum...

There should be no useless skills, there being is a failure on H3 game design which we can now correct and many people have done so.

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avatar
avatar


Promising
Supreme Hero
posted January 08, 2019 09:43 PM

There was not such failure in 1999 year. Keep in mind, that this game was not designed for multiplayer (most popular social playing was... hot-seat), there was only few XL maps, popular maps were S and M size for performance purposes. So, in single player mod, in small maps with no big armies Learning had bigger meaning, Scouting also, First Aid too. There were no time and resources to build higher mage guilds so even Eagle Eye had big meaning.
Yes, modding 20-years old game to suit modern playing is neccessarily, but... it was no failure as you think.
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phoenix4ever
phoenix4ever


Supreme Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted January 08, 2019 09:56 PM

I don't see how those skills are any better on small or medium maps, their effect is so miniscule that it's almost the same as not having them.

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Doomforge
Doomforge


Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
posted January 08, 2019 09:59 PM

NimoStar said:
There should be no useless skills, there being is a failure on H3 game design which we can now correct and many people have done so.



I can't even recall modern multiplayer games where every possibility is equally useful - you'd have to play Chess (and even there white wins more).


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bloodsucker
bloodsucker


Legendary Hero
posted January 08, 2019 10:49 PM
Edited by bloodsucker at 23:10, 08 Jan 2019.

revolut1oN said:
gameplay level skyrocketed recently, we are forced to max this Earth asap, skip other skills even if offered offense, logistics or intelligence. That can allow us to break for example 116.

What I mean: now tempo is what matters. As long as maxing certain skill (mostly Earth or Logistics with current balance) allows you to get some big banks or do some OP chains then you are very likely to just skip so called 'safe build' and go for high risk high gain scenario.


I do believe gameplay level has skyrocketed mostly because of the absurd number of streams of high level players available at the moment but, from what I've been observing in those exact streams, that will to maximize certain skills backfires more often then not. I'm even under the impression some top players are now trying to develop a second hero at the same time as main precisely cause of the so many times they screw main betting on those maximizations.

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AlfWithCake
AlfWithCake


Adventuring Hero
posted January 08, 2019 11:42 PM
Edited by AlfWithCake at 23:46, 08 Jan 2019.

avatar said:
Learning had bigger meaning


No, it didn't, never did. The whole purpose of Learning would be to get advantage of levels to compensate loss of points wasted on this skill, but you get at best like 1 level advantage for 3 points spent. Where is the advantage? I would understand if it would give static exp bonus after each battle won, or huge multiplier to compensate for early game loss, but instead you just lose in every stage of the game. Some things in homm are just useless. I do see some situations where eagly eye potentially could be helpful sometimes if you risk, like 8 players M map or something, but noone plays this right now. As far as I know, people only play very specific generator with specific amount of players and map size, this is what limits strategy and why some skills are not even considered.

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Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted January 09, 2019 12:18 AM

Pointless bickering imo. H2 had much bigger flaws - genies halving armies, infinite movement upon retreat so you could hit and run as long as you had money, no shackles and no anti magic counter, speed being decisive yet it was so fun to play, to die and retry again. Avatar is right, the today templates are a hideous mutation of the vanilla, not that they are bad but they choke the game, where some skills become the key because heroes can go very up in levels and add percentages. Play original maps in MP, where opponent is at 3 days from you, and you can shove with offense or armorer, 4/5 of the game will consist in skirmishes over too scarce resources and where going with mage guild above level 2 will have to wait. Then your mass slow will be pointless, with such light armies, level 2 damage spells will rule.

I am sorry for the guys who believe the gameplay has sky-rocketed today, maybe from a technical perspective - chaining, battle baiting probably became better, but watching a modern game is plain boring, people do same things over and over, have same boring big battle at the end, bicker about same rules and are unable to think and play out of the box. Antal, Flamingo, Frank or Prometheus would have put those rules-zealots's pants down in no time.
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bloodsucker
bloodsucker


Legendary Hero
posted January 09, 2019 02:41 AM

Salamandre said:
I am sorry for the guys who believe the gameplay has sky-rocketed today, maybe from a technical perspective - chaining, battle baiting probably became better, but watching a modern game is plain boring, people do same things over and over, have same boring big battle at the end, bicker about same rules and are unable to think and play out of the box. Antal, Flamingo, Frank or Prometheus would have put those rules-zealots's pants down in no time.


It's a bit like in sports, in his time there was One Pelé, nowadays there are ten serious candidates to best player but none shines like him.
And that's why I think it has to do with the fact strategies are now constantly shared in the Internet and everyone adopts the ones that seem to work more often, some without putting much thought to it.
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