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Heroes Community > Heroes 3.5 - WoG and Beyond > Thread: The Very Definition of Boner Killer
Thread: The Very Definition of Boner Killer This thread is 5 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 · «PREV / NEXT»
Ghost
Ghost


Legendary Hero
Therefore I am
posted January 09, 2019 06:40 AM

Doomforge said:
NimoStar said:
There should be no useless skills, there being is a failure on H3 game design which we can now correct and many people have done so.



I can't even recall modern multiplayer games where every possibility is equally useful - you'd have to play Chess (and even there white wins more).




Nope. White is a attacker, and defender black. The same machines (versions) play a draw, it before the old machines played a white victory. Nowadays black hae advanced to victory. Black used evolution in chess. Thankee the modern machines shows chess to us. Important to evolution game.
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Doomforge
Doomforge


Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
posted January 09, 2019 03:34 PM
Edited by Doomforge at 15:35, 09 Jan 2019.

Salamandre said:
I am sorry for the guys who believe the gameplay has sky-rocketed today, maybe from a technical perspective - chaining, battle baiting probably became better, but watching a modern game is plain boring, people do same things over and over, have same boring big battle at the end, bicker about same rules and are unable to think and play out of the box. Antal, Flamingo, Frank or Prometheus would have put those rules-zealots's pants down in no time.


My thoughts as well. In all honesty, the rules did streamline things to a point where the best player isn't the most creative mind around, but the one that has played the template 1000 times, remembers all the AI tricks to break through with minimal loses and - of course - doesn't get screwed by the RNG offering him the classic "Eagle Eye or Learning" levelup.

Repeating things hundreds, thousands of times to be "the best" is cool, I guess.. if you're a young kid with all the life before you.

If I were to repeat things like that, I'd rather learn to play a piano.. oh crap, Sal's already done that.
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Ghost
Ghost


Legendary Hero
Therefore I am
posted January 09, 2019 05:47 PM

@Doomforge

You can play my tournament map, name's Chaotic Event. Crap map, but I think HotA in the future.

Fanmaker map, you can play my Monstrous Island. The map is true, if you hope something, you can't get it, because of random.

You find my maps in Maps4Heroes. I hope you have a fun, when many players like a fun by mass slow + AI abuse. And Monstrous Island waits 10 rating by true player.
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bloodsucker
bloodsucker


Legendary Hero
posted January 09, 2019 06:29 PM
Edited by bloodsucker at 18:33, 09 Jan 2019.

This Monster Island is yours? Congratulations, is one of the funniest maps I'd ever played.
Wait, that means you're NO? You have a bunch of awesome maps I've played. Thx.
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Ghost
Ghost


Legendary Hero
Therefore I am
posted January 09, 2019 06:35 PM

bloodsucker said:
This Monster Island is yours? Congratulations, is one of the funniest maps I'd ever played.


Not. Mapmaker from Romania. Double D told me.
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Lth3
Lth3


Known Hero
posted January 10, 2019 07:38 PM
Edited by Lth3 at 19:42, 10 Jan 2019.

Salamandre said:
I am sorry for the guys who believe the gameplay has sky-rocketed today, maybe from a technical perspective - chaining, battle baiting probably became better, but watching a modern game is plain boring, people do same things over and over, have same boring big battle at the end, bicker about same rules and are unable to think and play out of the box. Antal, Flamingo, Frank or Prometheus would have put those rules-zealots's pants down in no time.


then why is there no such a ladder/league/tournament that you are describing?

i mean, can it guarantee competetiveness? is there at least demand for these kinds of games? if not, your opinion on such style of gameplay is very subjective

if you are against random templates, i must say that using RNG you have all the freedom to make map as rich as you want and with guards as weak as you want, or no guards at all to keep hero levels low - if that's what you wish

Doomforge said:
My thoughts as well. In all honesty, the rules did streamline things to a point where the best player isn't the most creative mind around, but the one that has played the template 1000 times, remembers all the AI tricks to break through with minimal loses and - of course - doesn't get screwed by the RNG offering him the classic "Eagle Eye or Learning" levelup.

Repeating things hundreds, thousands of times to be "the best" is cool, I guess.. if you're a young kid with all the life before you.

If I were to repeat things like that, I'd rather learn to play a piano.. oh crap, Sal's already done that.


i see players with many games but many look like easy fish. you actually have to have played H3 for many years before making an evolutionary step into top level competetive play. otherwise it is very, let me repeat - very hard

then, ofcourse, if you don't have such skill and knowledge - it's a good idea to go on a piano, until you do

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Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted January 10, 2019 08:07 PM

Well of course, any opinion is subjective.

However, the quasi totality of played templates being closed style, there is no early interaction between humans, but a race vs AI only, play vs the map. As AI behaviour is now 150% known, this leads to 95% of the game being about repeating same moves, getting same skills and spells (Hota even created a new research system about) and perfecting them from one game to another. It does not offer the juicy show when two creative minds are constantly opposed and have to improvise in order to confuse and bait each other. For me, personally, there is nothing close to early interaction skirmishes, when you are weak, without army and resources and where you have to play out of the box, to both keep opponent far away and still appropriate the goods around. This does not eliminate the possibility of a big final battle, but makes it less predictable, like in all the videos I watched those times.
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revolut1oN
revolut1oN


Famous Hero
posted January 10, 2019 08:08 PM
Edited by revolut1oN at 20:14, 10 Jan 2019.

Salamandre said:
I am sorry for the guys who believe the gameplay has sky-rocketed today, maybe from a technical perspective - chaining, battle baiting probably became better, but watching a modern game is plain boring, people do same things over and over, have same boring big battle at the end, bicker about same rules and are unable to think and play out of the box. Antal, Flamingo, Frank or Prometheus would have put those rules-zealots's pants down in no time.


No offense but you seem to be sucked in some kind of nostalgia vortex. Obviously gameplay has been optimized recently and the so called pros from the past times would be average players today at best. And I say it as a person who was watching WoH games for years. Nowadays guys like Dave_hun, FTS or Dawidu are absolutely top heroes players of all time. Not to mention that gameplay got 100 times better with HotA map generator, which is much less random than the SoD one and enables many new interesting builds. It was SoD that had every game look exactly the same - go Crag Hack, any logistic specialist, Tazar and just run around looking for hives. Nowadays you often main Mage, can build interesting powerstacks (I've seen break using dwarves powerstack recently) etc.  

As for the other points I dont see any reason responding as people obviously have very shallow understanding of how game works; if anybody wants to learn by practice instead of all big talk then I am ready to play some multi, usually have these 3-4 hours of spare time every weekend so I can prove how wrong you are

EDIT: I can't see why do you think templates are wrong thing - nobody ever played any serious multiplayer using standard heroes 3 template lol. I once played it vs my mate for fun, and crushed him 1/1/3 with Ciele and he wasn't able to do ANYTHING, that balance man! xD I mean, nobody ever played it seriously, even in the ancient heroes times. And saying that there is no interaction is just... so weird. Just watch any other template than Jebus... Last game I've watched was on H3DM1 and it was 3 hours non stop jumping between castles, killing enemy scouts and trying to surround him. I'd say quite intense.

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Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted January 10, 2019 08:23 PM

There is no offense my friend, you weren't even born when those I mentioned were kicking a$$ around. At least I talk about things I saw.

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Doomforge
Doomforge


Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
posted January 10, 2019 09:38 PM
Edited by Doomforge at 21:38, 10 Jan 2019.

Wow, the thought of me playing this game longer than revolut1oN lives makes me... uncomfortable a bit haha but it's true. Ouch! I've started playing HoMM3 in 1999.

That being said, I did give up on all competitive games couple years ago. My last game was actually World of Tanks, where I reached the "purple" stats (which means a top player, upper 0.1 percentile of all players) and got fed up with the mechanics of competitive gameplay. Not just of that game - but of all of them.

It's fairly typical for dedicated players (fans of current "meta") to assume the person they discuss with is just a spiteful noob that should l2p or adapt. Since this is a very old forum and we mostly know each other for years, the atmosphere is obviously not toxic and we can be civil about it, but it's inevitable this is what happens on every gaming forum dedicated to a game I've played competitively for years. A cookie cutter strategy is devised (usually by Korean players, since they are the most passionate), and a smart person with insane dedication can make it to the top by learning what to do and perfecting it by hundreds, thousands of repetitions until it just works most of the time.

What made me quit most of the games after reaching the "penultimate" level is that the stepgap between "good player" and "awesome player" is literally measured in repetition, not thinking, not talent, or anything of that. That's hardly a revelation, I guess. Everything works like that in life.

I have attended to a fair share of Warcraft 3 tournaments in my time and I remember that some people I just couldn't beat because their style was just too perfect. Their first 5 mins had no mistakes. I could never convince myself to memorize where to put buildings (and I don't mean "in a general fashion", I mean EXACT positioning), where to send units to scout and what spots to creep & in what order, because the thought of me repeating a "fast expansion" 50-100 times till I learned to make it right turned my stomach. And that's why, despite being a great player, I could never become a TOP player in that game. The players who rigorously trained that every day would always outperform me in some way, either by having a better economy, or a better map control - minmaxed & perfected by Koreans, repeated ad infinitum by professionals as the OPTIMAL way.

Is heroes 3 "meta" different? nope. And I really don't have to play thousands of games to know that. I don't even have to play one game, actually. Because that's how things work.

Sorry for a longer rant haha. I'm totally with Salamandre on this.


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Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted January 10, 2019 09:50 PM

yeah bro, you know that nostalgia feeling


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Doomforge
Doomforge


Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
posted January 10, 2019 09:57 PM

lovely pic Sal

@bloodsucker

That's why most people quit, I guess. They notice they can't improve further without insane dedication, and I believe you can only give that much if something is the most important thing in your life.
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bloodsucker
bloodsucker


Legendary Hero
posted January 10, 2019 10:07 PM

Sorry, I felt my answer so inadequate after that picture I deleted it. To put  your comment in context: I said it was like in sports, there's a point when it stops being funny or you have to became obsessed with details, seconds, perfecting movements...
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Lth3
Lth3


Known Hero
posted January 10, 2019 11:02 PM
Edited by Lth3 at 23:09, 10 Jan 2019.

Salamandre said:
However, the quasi totality of played templates being closed style, there is no early interaction between humans, but a race vs AI only, play vs the map. As AI behaviour is now 150% known, this leads to 95% of the game being about repeating same moves, getting same skills and spells (Hota even created a new research system about) and perfecting them from one game to another. It does not offer the juicy show when two creative minds are constantly opposed and have to improvise in order to confuse and bait each other. For me, personally, there is nothing close to early interaction skirmishes, when you are weak, without army and resources and where you have to play out of the box, to both keep opponent far away and still appropriate the goods around. This does not eliminate the possibility of a big final battle, but makes it less predictable, like in all the videos I watched those times.


some of the templates with possible "bouncing around" gameplay you are talking about:

2sm2f, 2sm4d, 4sm0d, 5sb0a, 5sb0b, 8sm0c, 8sm0f, Ring, Small Ring

http://clip2net.com/clip/m27958/1296335627-4e348-40kb.jpg
http://clip2net.com/clip/m27958/1376249098-61699-62kb.jpg
http://clip2net.com/clip/m27958/1376253082-4ae11-62kb.jpg
http://clip2net.com/clip/m27958/1296335635-c41db-59kb.jpg
http://clip2net.com/clip/m27958/1296335635-94243-60kb.jpg
http://clip2net.com/clip/m27958/1296335641-e41e1-119kb.jpg
http://clip2net.com/clip/m27958/1296335643-c996b-92kb.jpg
http://clip2net.com/clip/m27958/1296335650-a3406-137kb.jpg
http://clip2net.com/clip/m27958/1296335652-c45d1-75kb.jpg

revolut1oN said:
I can't see why do you think templates are wrong thing - nobody ever played any serious multiplayer using standard heroes 3 template lol. I once played it vs my mate for fun, and crushed him 1/1/3 with Ciele and he wasn't able to do ANYTHING, that balance man! xD I mean, nobody ever played it seriously, even in the ancient heroes times. And saying that there is no interaction is just... so weird. Just watch any other template than Jebus... Last game I've watched was on H3DM1 and it was 3 hours non stop jumping between castles, killing enemy scouts and trying to surround him. I'd say quite intense.


that's a good observation. Solmyr, Deemer, Aislinn, Ciele (or any Conflux hero in that sense) would need to be banned in such circumstances due to 'mage hero rushing and winning META gameplay'

Doomforge said:
It's fairly typical for dedicated players (fans of current "meta") to assume the person they discuss with is just a spiteful noob that should l2p or adapt. Since this is a very old forum and we mostly know each other for years, the atmosphere is obviously not toxic and we can be civil about it, but it's inevitable this is what happens on every gaming forum dedicated to a game I've played competitively for years. A cookie cutter strategy is devised (usually by Korean players, since they are the most passionate), and a smart person with insane dedication can make it to the top by learning what to do and perfecting it by hundreds, thousands of repetitions until it just works most of the time.

I have attended to a fair share of Warcraft 3 tournaments in my time and I remember that some people I just couldn't beat because their style was just too perfect. Their first 5 mins had no mistakes. I could never convince myself to memorize where to put buildings (and I don't mean "in a general fashion", I mean EXACT positioning), where to send units to scout and what spots to creep & in what order, because the thought of me repeating a "fast expansion" 50-100 times till I learned to make it right turned my stomach. And that's why, despite being a great player, I could never become a TOP player in that game. The players who rigorously trained that every day would always outperform me in some way, either by having a better economy, or a better map control - minmaxed & perfected by Koreans, repeated ad infinitum by professionals as the OPTIMAL way.

Is heroes 3 "meta" different? nope. And I really don't have to play thousands of games to know that. I don't even have to play one game, actually. Because that's how things work.


yes. H3 "meta" is different. you can say H3 has many metas: like Scouting meta, Chaining meta, Building meta, Offensive or Defensive play meta and possibly many other metas. it's part of game mechanics. only way to avoid it is to create a specific map by design that will not allow the usage of such advantage. example: 1) very poor map will force you to play defensive with slow expansion and emphasis on building gold. 2) disable tavern and put external on map to minimize or stop hero chaining etc. otherwise, what i learned in random multiplayer, i will absolutely use in any other circumstance or any other map, if the map allows me to, because it's part of effective game mechanics. i couln't just return to the way i was playing 8 years ago or so, because it's just weak play

i image with W3 RTS mechanics it's actually not dependent on map and every time you do exactly the same thing, so it mostly doesn't apply to H3

Doomforge said:
What made me quit most of the games after reaching the "penultimate" level is that the stepgap between "good player" and "awesome player" is literally measured in repetition, not thinking, not talent, or anything of that. That's hardly a revelation, I guess. Everything works like that in life.


when both players are on the same level, then comes "thinking, talent, and other things". if you can beat the other guy by just using efficient game mechanics - it just means that he's not on the same level as you

other than that i applaud you for being able to master a lot of games. if you lose interest when game mechanics stop giving you a challenge, i can't say it's a bad thing. not your cup of tea and you like the constant challenge that a new game gives you to overcome. a game should certainly be for enjoyment, and not like a job. those 50-100 of repetitions sound very unappealing to me as well

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Doomforge
Doomforge


Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
posted January 10, 2019 11:48 PM

Thank you. I'm pretty passionate at playing video games, I guess it's my #1 hobby. I won't argue about the h3 meta because I quit years ago; HotA is mostly fun single player adventure for me. I am replaying all the campaigns too on "impossible" (which is still pretty easy, if somewhat annoying at times). What I like as a... how do you put it... "old gamer" (ugh) is when a goal is at hand. Like, when I can actually beat the game, because it gives a sense of completion that online competitive never seems to bring. Striving to be the best is fun, but at some point you WILL encounter a "repetition wall" and that's where my patience runs dry, I guess. For most, if not all, online games I played, the repetition wall was always there and you could not overcome it in any way. One HAD to learn had to perfectly build a base in Warcraft 3, for instance, to stand a chance against certain kinds of harassment.

Nowadays, it's all single player for me, but it's a lot of fun. More than I expected.

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Galaad
Galaad

Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
posted January 11, 2019 11:47 AM

Blah, the best experience to me still is hotseat, just gaming night among a few friends, with no tournament rules, everything allowed -including noob moves.
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Lth3
Lth3


Known Hero
posted January 12, 2019 10:29 AM

too bad papa Maretti (the founding father of expert H3 play) isn't here. y'all would get spanked for not improving enough over the years

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Ghost
Ghost


Legendary Hero
Therefore I am
posted January 12, 2019 10:32 AM

And you're the last.
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Lth3
Lth3


Known Hero
posted January 12, 2019 05:43 PM

maybe i'd get spanked too. but it would just be a little slap probably, which is manageable

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Ben80
Ben80


Adventuring Hero
posted January 12, 2019 07:29 PM
Edited by Ben80 at 19:52, 12 Jan 2019.

Salamandre said:
Well of course, any opinion is subjective.

However, the quasi totality of played templates being closed style, there is no early interaction between humans, but a race vs AI only, play vs the map. As AI behaviour is now 150% known, this leads to 95% of the game being about repeating same moves, getting same skills and spells (Hota even created a new research system about) and perfecting them from one game to another. It does not offer the juicy show when two creative minds are constantly opposed and have to improvise in order to confuse and bait each other. For me, personally, there is nothing close to early interaction skirmishes, when you are weak, without army and resources and where you have to play out of the box, to both keep opponent far away and still appropriate the goods around. This does not eliminate the possibility of a big final battle, but makes it less predictable, like in all the videos I watched those times.


Moreover, H3 were designed so that each "true" (that is strong human or strong AI) player have area of its influence, which is not so big in size. Tournament players play 2SM4d3 (designed for M maps) on L+U 1 human against 1 human and wonder why game have bad skills/spells, imbalancies (OP Necromancy skill, for example) and so on.

So, evolution of H3 in right direction might be related to strong AI development (only AI players, not neutral monsters) or playing games with 4 humans (all against all) instead of 2 humans.

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