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| Thread: The Very Definition of Boner Killer |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 · «PREV |
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Lth3
Known Hero
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posted January 13, 2019 12:48 PM |
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Ben80 said:
Moreover, H3 were designed so that each "true" (that is strong human or strong AI) player have area of its influence, which is not so big in size. Tournament players play 2SM4d3 (designed for M maps) on L+U 1 human against 1 human and wonder why game have bad skills/spells, imbalancies (OP Necromancy skill, for example) and so on.
bigger size is to prevent week 1 rushing
i have played several times 2sm4d3 on M+U or L-U and believe me, it is the sh***iest template to play on smaller sizes, since then it's all based on luck. treasure zones are small and so it happens that opp can get all the good stuff in his zones - and you barely get anything useful and just run out of places to go. then sit in town until you can break middle guard. most likely that's not gonna be possible even 3rd week on an M, unless a lucky break happens
i would go even further to say that not L+U but XL-U is the optimal size for this template
Ben80 said:
So, evolution of H3 in right direction might be related to strong AI development (only AI players, not neutral monsters) or playing games with 4 humans (all against all) instead of 2 humans.
not gonna happen. imagine a game where 3 players fight each other and 1 doesn't get involved, then comes and swoops all three since they are weakened from fighting each other. avoiding combat would be the best strategy in this - everyone sitting in their towns lol
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Ben80
Famous Hero
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posted January 13, 2019 03:31 PM |
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Edited by Ben80 at 15:36, 13 Jan 2019.
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Lth3 said:
bigger size is to prevent week 1 rushing
Even on L+U maps there are 1-2 week rushes (use roads  ).
Real reason of big maps - intention of gamers to reduce factor of luck in the game to win the strongest. The same reason for rebuilding of mage guild option (out of true SoD, of course).
However, for me (and many other players) game on moderate size maps more interesting. Though I'm playing big maps for training - good training for skill against monsters and skill of management for many heroes.
Lth3 said:
i have played several times 2sm4d3 on M+U or L-U and believe me, it is the sh***iest template to play on smaller sizes, since then it's all based on luck. treasure zones are small and so it happens that opp can get all the good stuff in his zones - and you barely get anything useful and just run out of places to go. then sit in town until you can break middle guard. most likely that's not gonna be possible even 3rd week on an M, unless a lucky break happens
i would go even further to say that not L+U but XL-U is the optimal size for this template
The name "SM" say you something ? It is designed by NWC for S and M maps. 2 players should play on S maps, more players - on M maps (for this template).
Lth3 said:
not gonna happen. imagine a game where 3 players fight each other and 1 doesn't get involved, then comes and swoops all three since they are weakened from fighting each other. avoiding combat would be the best strategy in this - everyone sitting in their towns lol
No, there are many logic games with several players fighting each other and they are very interesting. H3 is also very interesting for several players.
Though players frequently will avoid battles against equal opponent.
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Macron1
Supreme Hero
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posted January 13, 2019 03:41 PM |
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Lth3 said:
avoiding combat would be the best strategy in this - everyone sitting in their towns lol
Their heroes will not get experience. In HMM3 there is no safety in numbers.
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Lth3
Known Hero
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posted January 13, 2019 07:56 PM |
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other maps maybe. i was referring to 2sm4d3 specifically for week 1 rush. there is no road. only passage to neutral zone. and from there to opp. on S and M maps it is 100% of the time possible to do
Ben80 said:
The name "SM" say you something ? It is designed by NWC for S and M maps. 2 players should play on S maps, more players - on M maps (for this template).
game developers did not predict such rise in level of gameplay as we have today
Ben80 said:
No, there are many logic games with several players fighting each other and they are very interesting. H3 is also very interesting for several players.
Though players frequently will avoid battles against equal opponent.
i will not let myself ease into believing random stuff if you don't show me anything or provide details on how this works
it is easy to understand that if 2 strong players fight each other, the third player rises in advantage dramatically, so everyone will try to avoid fighting if there is no easy kill. and there is no easy kill if you're playing with similar skill level players as yourself
Macron1 said:
Their heroes will not get experience. In HMM3 there is no safety in numbers.
yeah i know what you mean. but i was already talking about late game when each of the players have stored up on mostly everything they need. even if one of the players feel stronger it's still a better idea to sit in town. because bottom line is, incurring losses will affect your chances of winning in a non 1v1 game
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Ben80
Famous Hero
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posted January 13, 2019 08:47 PM |
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Edited by Ben80 at 20:59, 13 Jan 2019.
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Lth3 said:
other maps maybe. i was referring to 2sm4d3 specifically for week 1 rush. there is no road. only passage to neutral zone. and from there to opp. on S and M maps it is 100% of the time possible to do
Recently I saw report - one player defeat other on 121, L+U, 2sm4d3.
Lth3 said:
Ben80 said:
The name "SM" say you something ? It is designed by NWC for S and M maps. 2 players should play on S maps, more players - on M maps (for this template).
game developers did not predict such rise in level of gameplay as we have today
Opposite, very long game investigating make clear for me that developers have designed game with big perspective for possible gamers level.
Example - shooting units have quite big number of shots. Nubs sometimes don't see difference - 12 shots or 24, because of their battles against neutral monsters usually short. But battle of good player might be long. So, developers were correct.
I could write other examples.
Lth3 said:
Ben80 said:
No, there are many logic games with several players fighting each other and they are very interesting. H3 is also very interesting for several players.
Though players frequently will avoid battles against equal opponent.
i will not let myself ease into believing random stuff if you don't show me anything or provide details on how this works
Elementary examples - Chaturanga (predecessor of chess), some modern board games (Cyclades).
Lth3 said:
it is easy to understand that if 2 strong players fight each other, the third player rises in advantage dramatically, so everyone will try to avoid fighting if there is no easy kill. and there is no easy kill if you're playing with similar skill level players as yourself
Players have to fight for castles, treasure zone objects and so on.
You can see in history that wars arised between real states though it leaded to enourmous cost of resources. The same in business.
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Lth3
Known Hero
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posted January 14, 2019 11:48 AM |
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Edited by Lth3 at 11:55, 14 Jan 2019.
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you are giving examples not related to H3
Ben80 said:
Recently I saw report - one player defeat other on 121, L+U, 2sm4d3.
yes, exactly. on M+U this would easily equate to 117/116/115 or even sooner
Ben80 said:
Opposite, very long game investigating make clear for me that developers have designed game with big perspective for possible gamers level.
Example - shooting units have quite big number of shots. Nubs sometimes don't see difference - 12 shots or 24, because of their battles against neutral monsters usually short. But battle of good player might be long. So, developers were correct.
I could write other examples.
more examples please. specifically adventure map examples. how did developers plan to accomodate heroe chaining and extremely rapid expansion as we have today in pro play
Ben80 said:
Elementary examples - Chaturanga (predecessor of chess), some modern board games (Cyclades).
i am not familiar with these games. only chess
Ben80 said:
Players have to fight for castles, treasure zone objects and so on.
You can see in history that wars arised between real states though it leaded to enourmous cost of resources. The same in business.
sure, it's one way to look at it. just that these are varying circumstances. it doesn't take away from the fact, however, that players will want to avoid engaging each other as much as possible in such a game. not like in 1v1 game, where every little opportunity to take advantage counts, whatever the casualties may be
so, sitting in town is not possible on 1v1, but would be possible on multiple FFA game, because one player cannot effectively close another without opening up his own town to weakness
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Ben80
Famous Hero
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posted January 14, 2019 03:05 PM |
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Edited by Ben80 at 15:09, 14 Jan 2019.
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Lth3 said:
you are giving examples not related to H3
Yes, you are correct.
Lth3 said:
Ben80 said:
Recently I saw report - one player defeat other on 121, L+U, 2sm4d3.
yes, exactly. on M+U this would easily equate to 117/116/115 or even sooner
Yes, and I don't see big difference (half-week, for example) - in both cases game finished quite soon.
And in both cases primary factor for this scenario - willing of gamers, style of gamers.
Lth3 said:
more examples please. specifically adventure map examples. how did developers plan to accomodate heroe chaining and extremely rapid expansion as we have today in pro play
Surely, they know about chaining (H4 designed so chaining is impossible - as far as I know). And they cannot learn AI chaining, it is difficult to programm (to be correctly and smart).
Perhaps, they did not see in 1999-2000 cool H3 gamers, still they might guess that it is possible to play H3 very cool. I think, they guess.
Additional examples (unfortunately, again, for battle) - effective use of Land Mines spell and Magogs. Both require good knowledge of AI algorithms in H3. And I did not see in streams (though I saw not so many streams) this effective use (I see no use). However, I use Land Mines (at adv or exp level of fire) and Magogs in my games quite good. So, developers were correct about high AI value of Magogs and high cost of Land Mines.
I could write additional examples (battle related)
Lth3 said:
Ben80 said:
Elementary examples - Chaturanga (predecessor of chess), some modern board games (Cyclades).
In fact, I do not know exactly for which game rules game is especially interesting for more than 2 players. Majority of games prefer 2 players. Perhaps one of the conditions for interesting 3+ players game - the benefits of the war are bigger than war cost. How H3 corresponds this - I do not know exactly. I saw quite frequently one strong player defeat in battle other strong player very convincing, with quite small casualties.
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Ben80
Famous Hero
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posted January 14, 2019 03:39 PM |
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Edited by Ben80 at 15:53, 14 Jan 2019.
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Ok, other examples for adv. map (I'm basing on conception of moderate sized maps, map in principle can be big - XL, but then it should be played 4+ strong players).
I think, developers were correct about 4 DD (not 2 as in HWRulez plugin). Usually it means that game almost is finished. It may be viewed as benefits from Air Expert. Let's say, other players developed Earth and had big benefits from it, but this player developed Air. (let's say, gamers were not able to develop both skills because of moderate size of map and experience correspondingly).
Necromancy and Diplomacy. In fact, both skills balance each other. One player will have big skeleton army (30% at expert is a must, of course, especially considering moderate size of map), other player will have good army due to Diplomacy. No need to ban/nerf both skills.
And... cherry on the cake ))
Eagle Eye in such conditions of game (moderate size, many strong players) is not so bad skill (comparable with Scouting or First Aid or Mysticism, for example). BTW First Aid also is not so bad skill. And again, this is known only for strong players, which can use first aid tent effectively and are able ensure safety for tent.
Big maps with 2 strong players make game imbalanced in many respects and out of initial design. Many-many artifacts for each player. Orb of prohibition (players have it almost always).
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Lth3
Known Hero
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posted January 14, 2019 05:49 PM |
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ok you lost me with Eagle Eye. it is completely useless no matter what conditions
your ideas seem to have some merit on the surface level, but are situational. it may work on some templates (poor templates and Jebus), but most of the others - not really
i will keep to conclusion that game devs did not know of such possibility to play H3 game, and so some things are just innately imbalanced and must be accounted for, with rules and bans. if not they will be abused no matter what circumstance
i can agree that Dimplomacy is not that useful on small maps. but to be honest, it's just easier to ban it completely than try to contain it risking compromising the game with something that can get out of control too easily
Ben80 said:
Yes, and I don't see big difference (half-week, for example) - in both cases game finished quite soon.
And in both cases primary factor for this scenario - willing of gamers, style of gamers.
there is a whole world of difference. some towns are very strong on 1st week e.g. Rampart, while others get their fair share of things from 2nd week, e.g. Stronghold building Begs and more HP. Inferno can be taken advantage of 1st week like no one else - statutory RAPE
Ben80 said:
Necromancy and Diplomacy. In fact, both skills balance each other. One player will have big skeleton army (30% at expert is a must, of course, especially considering moderate size of map), other player will have good army due to Diplomacy. No need to ban/nerf both skills.
i could win 9/10 of games with Necro even on an M map with 8 players. that Skeleton PS + Skeleton Transformer, sprinkle it on with some Galthran = RIP balance
Ben80 said:
Big maps with 2 strong players make game imbalanced in many respects and out of initial design. Many-many artifacts for each player. Orb of prohibition (players have it almost always).
i don't have problems with red orb playing HotA. you should try it
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Ben80
Famous Hero
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posted January 14, 2019 06:08 PM |
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Edited by Ben80 at 18:31, 14 Jan 2019.
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Lth3 said:
i don't have problems with red orb playing HotA. you should try it
I will not try this, because of I'm playing interesting game formats while keeping original mechanic of game.
Lth3 said:
ok you lost me with Eagle Eye. it is completely useless no matter what conditions
Did you see ever how strong players unsuccessfully looking for Slow or Haste or something else ? Even on big maps this unluckily happens. It is even more probable on moderate size maps with many players. EE could help in this case )) You simply have no willing to imagine other game conditions.
Lth3 said:
i will keep to conclusion that game devs did not know of such possibility to play H3 game, and so some things are just innately imbalanced and must be accounted for, with rules and bans. if not they will be abused no matter what circumstance
Some banes are must for many maps, random or fixed. Developers themselves have provided such a tool (in MapEditor). Unfortunately, this is uncomfortable for random maps (at least because one should not see map before game), so plugins are needed.
But I'm against any rules, of course (excepting usage of unfixed game bugs).
Lth3 said:
i could win 9/10 of games with Necro even on an M map with 8 players. that Skeleton PS + Skeleton Transformer, sprinkle it on with some Galthran = RIP balance
Did you meant 7 players with original AI ? In this case I trust you, of course. But what about several players-humans or strong AI ?
Skeletons will be shot on 1 week (you will not have liches at this time). And Galtran usually have 2 skeleton troop, not 3 (it seems so).
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Lth3
Known Hero
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posted January 14, 2019 06:59 PM |
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Edited by Lth3 at 19:03, 14 Jan 2019.
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Ben80 said:
Did you see ever how strong players unsuccessfully looking for Slow or Haste or something else ? Even on big maps this unluckily happens. It is even more probable on moderate size maps with many players. EE could help in this case )) You simply have no willing to imagine other game conditions.
no. doesn't work against human player. is useless
Ben80 said:
Some banes are must for many maps, random or fixed. Developers themselves have provided such a tool (in MapEditor). Unfortunately, this is uncomfortable for random maps (at least because one should not see map before game), so plugins are needed.
But I'm against any rules, of course (excepting usage of unfixed game bugs).
for small maps (not HotA):
no Necropolis, no Necromancy, no Conflux, no 4-5 Scrolls, no Sir Mullich/Ciele/Solmyr/Deemer/Aislinn, no Mercenary Camp, no Hillfort, no Red/Blue/Tan etc Rush
for big maps (not HotA):
- no Sir Mullich/Ciele/Solmyr/Deemer/Aislinn, no Mercenary Camp
+ no Diplomacy, no Logistics specialty hero, Fly only with Basic Air magic, Dimension Door only once per hero per day with Advanced Air magic, no Angel/Wywern upgrade from banks
is that about right?
Ben80 said:
Did you meant 7 players with original AI ? In this case I trust you, of course. But what about several players-humans or strong AI ?
Skeletons will be shot on 1 week (you will not have liches at this time). And Galtran usually have 2 skeleton troop, not 3 (it seems so).
with humans
weaken shooter with magic (optional). then Haste your 100+ Skeletons and RIP
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Ben80
Famous Hero
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posted January 14, 2019 07:21 PM |
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Edited by Ben80 at 19:25, 14 Jan 2019.
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Lth3 said:
Ben80 said:
Did you see ever how strong players unsuccessfully looking for Slow or Haste or something else ? Even on big maps this unluckily happens. It is even more probable on moderate size maps with many players. EE could help in this case )) You simply have no willing to imagine other game conditions.
no. doesn't work against human player. is useless
What about some hypothetical strong AI ?
Lth3 said:
weaken shooter with magic (optional). then Haste your 100+ Skeletons and RIP
If you will use EE, it may be you will have Haste soon ))). Otherwise perhaps not. Only Straker have Haste at start among Necro heroes.
Lth3 said:
for small maps (not HotA):
no Necropolis, no Necromancy, no Conflux, no 4-5 Scrolls, no Sir Mullich/Ciele/Solmyr/Deemer/Aislinn, no Mercenary Camp, no Hillfort, no Red/Blue/Tan etc Rush
for big maps (not HotA):
- no Sir Mullich/Ciele/Solmyr/Deemer/Aislinn, no Mercenary Camp
+ no Diplomacy, no Logistics specialty hero, Fly only with Basic Air magic, Dimension Door only once per hero per day with Advanced Air magic, no Angel/Wywern upgrade from banks
is that about right?
I don't know. "Fly only with Basic Air magic, Dimension Door only once per hero per day with Advanced Air magic, no Angel/Wywern upgrade from banks" - I will not play this, it diverges from original mechanic. The rest is possible for me as it can be provided by Map Editor.
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Lth3
Known Hero
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posted January 14, 2019 08:38 PM |
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Edited by Lth3 at 20:40, 14 Jan 2019.
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Ben80 said:
What about some hypothetical strong AI ?
theoretically yes, practically no. no because it's too much hassle to send a scout with army to try and get spells. let alone travel back to another scout who has Scholar on him. and then also have him reach your main hero to teach. getting the spells from Towns/Heroes/Shrines is a lot less hassle
Ben80 said:
If you will use EE, it may be you will have Haste soon ))). Otherwise perhaps not. Only Straker have Haste at start among Necro heroes.
doesn't matter. just weaken shooters with magic and go for the kill
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Ghost
Undefeatable Hero
Therefore I am
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posted January 14, 2019 09:39 PM |
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Are you read Eagle Eye in Library? Remember exception is Alchemist has permissible to use a raw. A horrid guy doesn't use the Alchemist. Tower culture finds fast tempo to game.
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Fight MWMs - stand teach
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Ghost
Undefeatable Hero
Therefore I am
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posted February 08, 2019 05:58 PM |
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@Maurice
You are right about legion nagas. Because I thought 3 speed. Because I spelled slow, and I won the battle. I had reasons for I remember 3 speed. True naga is 5 speed, and naga needs in only 3 moves. Ok mastered Maurice 
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Fight MWMs - stand teach
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