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Heroes Community > Heroes 3.5 - WoG and Beyond > Thread: Why HOTA competitive scene is widely different than what the usual HOMM3 player plays
Thread: Why HOTA competitive scene is widely different than what the usual HOMM3 player plays This thread is 3 pages long: 1 2 3 · «PREV
Lth3
Lth3


Known Hero
posted April 16, 2019 08:36 AM
Edited by Lth3 at 08:36, 16 Apr 2019.

so what prevents you from enjoying this kind of template?

looks like a simple easy template without any major fights and all zones are pretty much equal in value - straightforward and slightly monotonic builder/explorer type game

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Pollo2002
Pollo2002


Famous Hero
posted April 16, 2019 08:44 AM
Edited by Pollo2002 at 08:48, 16 Apr 2019.

I think i may start playing it online until the magic rework happens, now i need to hope people join games with this template.
But yeah, this template has the general idea of the kind of template that would require quite different gameplay than what's currently online.

Still it would be better of guards in zones were 1 or 2 swords instead of 3, if all towns were castle and there were maybe a few extra castles/towns. But the general idea of the template is there.
Mostly i wanted to point it out because i was asked how "my templates" look or would look like, and this is a very good example, this looks in a way pretty much like my templates.
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Lth3
Lth3


Known Hero
posted April 16, 2019 10:26 AM

well i disagree. i wouldn't even dare stepping in that desert without Pathfinding. and even then probably with only a scout or secondary

still i would like to play with you some time. what is your name in lobby and what timer you use ?

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Pollo2002
Pollo2002


Famous Hero
posted April 16, 2019 10:01 PM
Edited by Pollo2002 at 22:09, 16 Apr 2019.

You are right that the fact the land is a desert is negative for the map.

I'm waterd.
However I play super sporadically like 1 game a week, if i get more active I will inform you. (i seriously doubt it will happen before a magic rework)
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Ghost
Ghost


Undefeatable Hero
Therefore I am
posted January 12, 2024 11:19 PM

revolut1oN said:
Looks like the only template OP knows is Jebus Cross.


No, I noticed imbalance, an example of my map.., I fixed some things, but map is still imbalanced! And JC is only fun.. An example of two Inferno and two Rampart, they started 5 (8lvl creatures), and neutrals are minimum 8lvl.. When you know Dragon Slayer - story.. So very OP Hell Barons or Diamond Dragons, you don't need 1-6 lvl troops.. It shows JC style.. If you are pro.. or you realized now?! Lexiav played only Archdevils with, and he joined neutrals were 1-3lvl, ok its example.. I've seen his game isn't high.. But young and energy player beat me, when the next matter:

Pollo2002 said:
Quote:
Skilled players tend to play fast, because thats the whole point of playing high level heroes.

My point is that players do not "play fast".
mroe templates are extremly rich and thus things escalate at ridiculus speeds.


Yes fast, when I played and beat Adventures (legendary RoE map) in 2 months or Illusion world 2 (RoE) in 3 months, for example.. Or my In The land of Nod (SoD map), when I was 30yo, I beat the time is 43 between 54d depends on team, you also can challenge my times.. MWM? Yes 2 months.. Now I can't play fast yet.. And my Elite (SoD) is lesson to you, so it also teaches you about banks.. When just a memory.. But HotA has extra banks.. Thus I don't know HotA enough.. Now you see they nerfed Logistics.. But Elite teaches you that you don't pick resources, etc nor you fight against pikemen for scroll, for example.. Its wasting time.. It meant that some could play still more fast.. or you learned a new thing.. First by heart, and then becomes fast player in every maps..

Ok I haven't read properly, I only notice the important ones.. and no need to challenge me, if you've time machine..
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NimoStar
NimoStar


Responsible
Legendary Hero
Modding the Unmoddable
posted January 13, 2024 01:46 AM
Edited by NimoStar at 01:53, 13 Jan 2024.

I think the template dependence of HotA "balance" became obvious now more than ever, where in long game there is no way that "town with double lvl 7 growth" is balanced. Level 7 creatures are like half of the army power in weekly recruitment.

If you sum the weekly stats of all lvl 1-6 creatures they are barely equal to the single lvl7. Since the lvl7 has high attack, defense, speed, and normally better abilities, all the other weekly creatures together can be killed by the single lvl7 stack.

Which means Factory has at least 150+% the fully built power of a regular town. Not counting this becomes further detached with grail due to the outsized influence of +50% growth and extra income applying to recruit two lvl7s (300+% regular town power vs only 200%)

At most it should have half growth of each, or choice of which.
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evildustructor
evildustructor


Known Hero
Pizza Man dominos pizza yummy
posted January 13, 2024 02:43 AM
Edited by evildustructor at 02:52, 13 Jan 2024.

NimoStar said:
I think the template dependence of HotA "balance" became obvious now more than ever, where in long game there is no way that "town with double lvl 7 growth" is balanced. Level 7 creatures are like half of the army power in weekly recruitment.

If you sum the weekly stats of all lvl 1-6 creatures they are barely equal to the single lvl7. Since the lvl7 has high attack, defense, speed, and normally better abilities, all the other weekly creatures together can be killed by the single lvl7 stack.

Which means Factory has at least 150+% the fully built power of a regular town. Not counting this becomes further detached with grail due to the outsized influence of +50% growth and extra income applying to recruit two lvl7s (300+% regular town power vs only 200%)

At most it should have half growth of each, or choice of which.


come on thats cooked man, no heroes scenario is played by weekly growth only and conflux already had their x2 growth lol

weekly growth in a void does not define balance in this game, its starting armies, dwellings, costs, build paths etc and i would argue growth in itself is meaningless if one chooses to ignore all the other stuff

"template dependence" in hota i mean yea in what way does the template not matter in regular sod gameplay or in any other heroes context, the map sets up strategies for you to choose and follow so you can get rolling and thats always how it has worked. there is no "long game" where the early and mid game won't matter, unless you play like hot seat with 1 hero and wait for next week capitol rush with only flagging early resource dwellings but thats just for enjoying urself in single player, in a multiplayer context or if you play hard maps to challenge yourself that just wont cut it

the balance depends on the template or the mapmaker, in a void then ofc its not balanced look at n*cropolis

"town power" i mean tf lol

and yea if u only make up some sort of arbitrary number instead of considering some t7 units suck and are easily exploited like the low speed walker ones (which factory has) i mean i guess i can do that as well, cove has 3000% increased Cannon Power since they have a cannon and they have designed this intentionally and this is completely unspeakably wrong by the hota crew, if u sum up all the statistics of the ballista specialists worldwide they have nothing agaisnt the cove cannons and thats completely broken!! fortress with their strong gerwulf ballista man cannot do anything against artillery king jeremiah what should we do?? he has at LEAST 150% increased cannon power or maybe even 200% in accordance to the statistical database

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NimoStar
NimoStar


Responsible
Legendary Hero
Modding the Unmoddable
posted January 13, 2024 05:25 AM
Edited by NimoStar at 05:31, 13 Jan 2024.

Quote:
come on thats cooked man, no heroes scenario is played by weekly growth only and conflux already had their x2 growth lol


x2 growth of a half as strong creature, with very weak creatures (elementals) in the middle

Actually all long games are decided by relative strength of weekly growth.

Not only that but HotA specifically nerfed the phoenix growth due to this

So now, they introduce something much, much worse (Juggernaut And Couatls are just as strong as Dragons unlike Phoenix)

Then, where is the coherence? "You can't get that weak Lvl7 much growth in Conflux"

"Let us introduce you to this town that gets two full strenght level 7 instead..."



Suppossedly the second is 1/2 value of the former because you get another growth 1, but is actually already stronger only by itself.
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Phoenix4ever
Phoenix4ever


Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted January 13, 2024 08:19 AM
Edited by Phoenix4ever at 08:23, 13 Jan 2024.

Buying and upgrading all creature buildings and buying all creatures at Factory is just too expensive.
Even compared to Conflux and Tower which were supposed to be expensive, Factory is much more expensive.
If you prioritize it, you may be able to buy everything in a Factory town, but it will really drain your resources. (Imagine having to double build or even triple build Factory...)
AI will often not be able to afford both upgraded level 7's and will run around with downgraded level 7's for a very long time.

It's a shame and it proves Factory should only have had 1 level 7 unit like all other towns.

Of course we could always make Estates give 1000/2000/3000 gold and make 20 new heroes with crystal specialty, then Factory might have a chance to buy all their stuff.

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dydzio
dydzio


Adventuring Hero
VCMI contributor
posted January 13, 2024 08:23 PM
Edited by dydzio at 20:25, 13 Jan 2024.

on maps where you can afford resources i an see factory being OP

higher growth is a benefit without a doubt - if rampart was growing 9999 dwarves every week it would be top1 strongest town in the game etc.

funny thing is that in multiplayer the problem is less visible because often game is over before you can really benefit from double level 7 growth etc.

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LordCameron
LordCameron


Known Hero
Veteran of the Succession Wars
posted January 13, 2024 08:28 PM

I remember seeing a player (Lexiav?) saying that scouting is amazing on your main hero and that pandora's box is one of the best items to grab in the game.

Really shows that he is playing a tiny slice of the game.

Now, if he's having fun, great for him, but there is always that nagging concern that the game might get balanced for/by people like him.

Things like nerfing stables or buffing estates already hint that that is happening to some extent.
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Warmonger
Warmonger


Promising
Legendary Hero
fallen artist
posted January 13, 2024 08:35 PM

Alright, but then there's Duel template, which bans all banks with creatures and focuses on native army growth. Also, the game is set for 2 months so you can actually develop some towns and builds, however 3-4th week rushes are possible.

To keep things quick, there is only 1 hero per player and 1 minute timer per turn. Recently there was a large and popular tournament of Golden Goose featuring Duel only.

Bottom line is - There are ways to design different gameplay and recently players try to experiment with these, but it takes time and effort to get anyone interested in non-standard gameplay.


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NimoStar
NimoStar


Responsible
Legendary Hero
Modding the Unmoddable
posted January 13, 2024 08:56 PM

Week 3 rush wouldn't be much viable in a big map even using the original templates of SoD

HotA multiplayer is turbo speed, JC is in practice a very tiny linear map

The fact that the players may only meet in the middle, with each cordoned off each other, means maneuvering is impossible even in 2D (H3 actually supports limited 3D maneuvering in the adventure map, with the underground)

This, much as happens with duel maps, radically shortens the game's lifespan due to not really being able to play cat and mouse much as compared to an open map with many passages where you can attack the enemy or flee from multiple directions.
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Never changing = never improving

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Ghost
Ghost


Undefeatable Hero
Therefore I am
posted January 13, 2024 10:43 PM

Warmonger said:
Bottom line is - There are ways to design different gameplay and recently players try to experiment with these, but it takes time and effort to get anyone interested in non-standard gameplay.


That's right.. Now I'm playing 1.7 for the first time.. No Factory has come.. My team is Stronghold, I use 3-7lvl troops, because 6-7lvl dwellings and Torso artifact.. But Diplomacy failed, and I tried to bank for two free places.. The random Giant map determined how to play.. So only I got one Giant.. When 2lvl is much better, thus number.. But my game philosopher vs different HotA..

So try to your style of play.. Don't change your style.. An example one player won world champion in StarCraft, if I remember the game right.. He said playing always his style with, no changes about different opponents.. He kept his game style..

Other chess, many players kept the same style.. And they won tournaments..

Its a game philosopher.. So I don't believe in their balance, idea, etc Too bad, I don't want to MP.. Only MP thing, what it can influence other, but I'm a sick and old man..

Did you know that strong player, but loser invented a new rule? Capablanca invented his chess board, thus Alekhine or Fischer invented his chess time control and random chess.. When Fischer didn't want to play Karpov with..

Monopoly? Do you have your own rule? Pity!
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evildustructor
evildustructor


Known Hero
Pizza Man dominos pizza yummy
posted January 15, 2024 04:30 AM
Edited by evildustructor at 04:43, 15 Jan 2024.

NimoStar said:
x2 growth of a half as strong creature, with very weak creatures (elementals) in the middle

Actually all long games are decided by relative strength of weekly growth.

Not only that but HotA specifically nerfed the phoenix growth due to this

So now, they introduce something much, much worse (Juggernaut And Couatls are just as strong as Dragons unlike Phoenix)

Then, where is the coherence? "You can't get that weak Lvl7 much growth in Conflux"

"Let us introduce you to this town that gets two full strenght level 7 instead..."



Suppossedly the second is 1/2 value of the former because you get another growth 1, but is actually already stronger only by itself.


half as strong creature? what measures are you even using here, is this another case of "town power" or some arbitrary statistic you just made up the phoenix provides utility in form of being the fastest in the game even though its stats suck

have you forgotten this funny building exists in game as well? this must be BROKEN to you!! once you reach a certain point in the game, conflux will be unstoppable with their 2x phoenixes! also lol "full strength t7" yea go ahead and compare all t7s im sure you will figure out they all are of different power levels (also, very weak creatures, storm eles? lol)

the truth is, even on big maps, creature growth is not as much of a factor as you think it is in most scenarios. tbf how often do you build horde buildings or actually resort to playing statue of legion pieces in your town unless you have nothing else to build and spare resources. it all depends on the template and you need to provide some kind of information for what kinds of templates you are talking about in order to argue for this to be mega op, because on the most popular templates i can assure you 2x t7 units with two different build paths is not a big deal. its a part of factorys identity like how dungeon has portal, cove has sea dogs and cannon, strong has early bears, necro has necro etc etc etc

no long games are SOLELY decided by creature growth in general unless a mapmaker or template creator resorted to building their scenarios around it

NimoStar said:
Week 3 rush wouldn't be much viable in a big map even using the original templates of SoD

HotA multiplayer is turbo speed, JC is in practice a very tiny linear map

The fact that the players may only meet in the middle, with each cordoned off each other, means maneuvering is impossible even in 2D (H3 actually supports limited 3D maneuvering in the adventure map, with the underground)

This, much as happens with duel maps, radically shortens the game's lifespan due to not really being able to play cat and mouse much as compared to an open map with many passages where you can attack the enemy or flee from multiple directions.


come on man, even u must know this isnt true or ur just pulling it out from the ahh, with unnerfed dd and intelligence and normal map generation bigger maps tend to be easy to traverse once u get rolling (depending on faction and diplo etc ofc), it's just a matter of getting the crucial early game going and that too depends on the template can't just say "big map" unspecified like this. with good supports, control spells and good chaining ability you can traverse the map late month 1 np

ppl play "turbo speed" like jc because its straightforward and easier to learn than the other more complex templates, and once the community for one template is bigger ofc more ppl will play that template out of enjoyment for the game. jc is a luckfest but people enjoy it because there is skill and game knowledge involved to a certain extent even though it gets way more luck centered when you reach a certain skill level. some even-ish jc games (where players are somewhat lucky to the same degree, or one played better than the other etc) can extend to months even and even then this factory growth stuff being op is bullsnow sorry biome farming with utopias, creature banks, resource banks and means to get good artifacts is much more essential to the core gameplay to get strong faster than the ai/your opponent. late game jc is literally just cat and mouse like you want to see and i can assure you factory won't be stronger than necro, dungeon or even rampart/castle unless you mega high roll the starting biome with dwellings, artifacts and creature banks

3d maneuvering with the underground? come on lol thats just a teleporter to another linear part of the map thats literally how it works (with the teleporter being set to a point in the map), what do you even mean

also may b a bit far fetched, but you can argue that jc is a sod template as well considering it pre dates hota and was pretty popular back in the day as well even with the sod rng stuff

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