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| Thread: Heroes IV: The Elements of Combat |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 · «PREV |
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ThE_HyDrA
Admirable
Famous Hero
The Leader of all Hydras
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posted May 23, 2002 01:32 PM |
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Combat and Alignments
"The creatures need to do 50 damage to the gate, and if needed you summon creatures 3 times to take down the 150 hp gate. That's all that's required of them."
OK. So what happens when their units within the castle walls are able to defeat the summoned creatures? Nothing else is achieved but the gate being broken down. While this may suffice in the short term, this ploy is easily overcome, as the spell points are expended, and the battle is opened up.
This may be good for the attacker to some extent, but it is possible that even with the gate knocked down, some creatures from both sides may not be damaged, and the defender is able to cast spells and strengthen troops from their end.
"A bonus which (if it hits the wrong stack) is likely to make the difference between a win with nearly no losses and a costly win, or between a close win and a defeat."
And what is this bonus you regard so highly? Summoned creatures can be useful for making inroads on destroying the gate, but not much else can be done with them. Other spells and abilities like resurrection and quicksand are able to directly stop the advance of an enemy (attacker) or regain about 1,200 HP. This is a more direct alternative of strengthening an army, or defending against an advance. (Or advancing for that matter)
"Sometimes you use the hero to prevent the opponent to act but using small stacks of genies or faeire dragons is also workable."
That will work in isolated situations, but in a general occurance, the heroes and ranged attackers which mount the towers will be able to attack at least one of your troops. A high level hero will be able to act first or second, and cast an initially damaging spell. Fireball and spells with similar effects would work well in this situation.
"A spell that really hurts defending shooters is forgetfullness."
Agree here. Forgetfullness does render enemy ranged attackers helpless, but it doesn't cator for magic. Although this won't really be a problem in this instance. Forgetfullness isolates the ranged attackers upon the towers for the whole combat, and decreasing the priority of attacking them.
"which was to circumvent the huge bonuses the castle structures give to the defender."
I see your point, but while the shooters could cator for either of your units, flyers and walkers alike would be able to attack the creatures and heroes that pose a threat. While it may circumvent damage in some cases where the creatures can deal damage, it doesn't stop the other creatures from attacking the dangerous creatures, and spellpoints may be used in a more constructive fashion.
"However, if the defender doesn't attack you want to keep down losses and that means circumventing the wall/tower bonuses in anyway possible."
As I said before, the shooters may choose to attack your walkers, as they are generally situated upon the front row, which makes them open for attack. The summonable creatures, if they decide to come within castle walls, will be clobbered by the walkers and flyers which are situated in the walls.
"The spellcasters will likely cast damage spells on the Ballista instead of Summoning, while there are Ballista available."
That would also be my way of handling the problem but you will not be able to cause a stalemate if the opponent has ballistas, as they are going to attack you whether you like it or not. While direct damage spells will have effect on the ballista, you are then centralising your spellcasting capabilities on one unit, leaving others in the 'clean air' and having free shots. Ballistas won't be placed on the towers, so the options will be available for monks, crossbowmen and heroes. If your attacking is centralised, it leaves gaps, is what I'm trying to convey here.
"Sure, but don't you feel that to begin developing a second secondary skill at say level 15 is too late?"
Level 15? Who said anything about level 15?I would generally embark on learning a new primary skill roughly between the levels of 6 and 10. This way, one can have a main primary skill and a semi-main primary skill. These two would be kept in good relation with each other. (E.g GM Nature magic and M Combat.)
"Then its just a simple matter of summoning huge quantities of creatures every turn."
Yes, summoning many creatures every turn would help, but it could result in not developing your main creatures enough, and the hero won't be able to utilise his other spells. I would tend to use summoning in battle a couple of times, but not get carried away with it, as it can shroud the importance of other creatures you may possess.
"The only huge problem with doing this is if the enemy actually leaves there castle to attack then your in trouble, lucky this works most times as the AI sucks"
I agree, as the summoned creatures can be overrun, and your plan of attacking them from a distance and holding them back is thwarted. As you say, the AI needs to improve. Wait for patch 1.3.
Thankyou for the replies. 
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"Dragons may breathe fire, but Hydras have many heads." - The Creed of Hydras
"As the Dragon drew its breath, the Hydra pounced, swiftly but powerfully, and the Dragon was defeated.”
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Charis
Tavern Dweller
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posted May 24, 2002 07:30 PM |
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Siege battle
Djive is really making excellent points here. If at some point something of hers (?) sounds silly, read it again until it makes sense 
Let me try to clarify some of the points by a few sample siege attack scenarios.
A) Mixed shooter/walker vs mixed shooter/walker.
Their shooters get massive bonuses, and if we just trades shots I'm going to lose tons more creatures than he will.
I bring full magic to bear on the tower shooters. Forgetfulness or hypotize is best, berzerk also great, but song of peace and wasp swarm will do in a pinch.
If their shooters have range penalties, I'm sure not to more forward an inch until they're taken care of.
Before long, you've taken out their shooters. (If not, see example C, or ask yourself why on earth you're attacking the castle in the first place  ) Now what?
Now you do as Djive suggests. You summon. Or raise. ANYTHING. Even a leprechaun will do. They have one purpose -- to get the gate open, likely dieing in the process.
Why summoned creatures? Because the foes behind the wall have a large bonus. You want to engage them NOT across the wall but either fully inside or fully outside, with your main troops. The defender either stands where the gate was, to block, giving up his 'on the wall' bonus (which is fine) or steps aside, and you rush in with walkers - again their bonus is gone.
What don't I do? Simply trade shots shooter vs shooter. If I can't use magic to take one of theirs out, I'll do the following: use a stack with one cheap creature or a summonable, and have him stand in front of my shooter. Fire and let the massive retaliation kill the cheap guy. Every other shooter I have fires on the same foe. Ideally I'll do ALL this after waiting, so that next round by not waiting there is still no retaliation.
B) Full shooter vs Walker. Time is on your side. If they come out they lose their bonus and you get free shots. If they stay inside, you buff, buff, buff up your guys, and summon whatever you can until you're dry. With a moderate mana supply, you can conjure up quite a stack if they're fully passive.
C) Full walker vs Shooter/walker. This is the roughest situation, you can't afford to wait since you have no means to attack them and they can fire on you. The only suggestion here is to try to take one turn to step up close, next one 'wait', then hit the gate, repeat hit next turn and minimize the number of 'high bonus' shots they get on your guys across the wall or in the moat.
In the sub-case of walker vs walker, where I have a very fast unit, I'll draw them all close to the castle, but not where they can be attacked, and simply wait. The fast unit waits then hits gate end of turn. Very beginning of next turn he steps back out of range. It make take five rounds to knock down the gate, but you will NOT have any combat under conditions where they get the bonus. Rushing would be foolish here. This technique is why killing their tower/ranged first is imperitive. That's five rounds of no damage (for either side) vs five rounds of free open fire at close range upon your troops.
D) Buff magic hero with trash troops. Get a tight or box formation, move as needed to step right in front of hero to defend him, but nothing else. Especially don't fire a wimpy shot and get a big retaliation hit. If this strategy sounds odd, let me say it's a very viable option for GM Nature druids. For me Elwin won one game with this technique alone, almost zero purchased troops - his naturally summoned junk troops were enough, split into little stacks. Every round you can last with a weinie getting shot instead of a hero, you're summoning a half-dozen level four creatures. Chaos isn't bad either. Two or three rounds of chain lightning or armaggedon or disintegration is going to put a hurtin' on your enemy.
In summary, if you're rushing to break the gate down with 'real' troops while the defender still has ranged attackers awake on the towers, you're definitely doing something wrong, in either case above.
Charis
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ThE_HyDrA
Admirable
Famous Hero
The Leader of all Hydras
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posted May 28, 2002 07:51 AM |
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Follow-up
"They have one purpose -- to get the gate open, likely dieing in the process."
It can be quite difficult using a summoned Leprechaun to open a gate. 20 Leprechauns would not be a sufficient amount to knock down the gate. What is more time efficient is getting a stack of seemingly weaker creatures like sprites to attack the gate and not waste the hero's valuable turns casting summoning spells.
Do not forget that the role of the magic hero in a siege is heightened, as he/she is the only one which can attack creatures behind the wall. Spells such as poison accomplish this task well, as it does not require the line of sight.
If one decides to attack he actual creatures first, you will be able to whittle down their troops while conserving your own, and when you do get to the stage of attacking the gate there will be less to worry about.
Another good side to this is that if the AI is silly enough, they may even start coming out of the gate, giving you clean shots at them!
I'm not saying that Djive's method doesn't work, because it does, and I have tried it, but I prefer going direct to the target, and saving spell points and creatures in the process.
"wall but either fully inside or fully outside, with your main troops."
Right. You said it yourself. Summoned creatures have very little effectiveness when they are trying to attack the gate, and will most likely get killed in the process. So why not attack them with your main creature stacks, but who do not hold much value to you. An example is about 50 squires. These troops would deal very little to 5 Bone Dragons. So why not make them useful instead of summoning creatures, using spell points, and expending hero turns!?
They are likely to prove more effective, and have the job done more efficiently.
"Simply trade shots shooter vs shooter."
LOL. That is a given. It would be quite silly having an all out slugfest. Shooter to shooter. It's better going Spellcaster to shooter, or shooter to spellcaster. That way, it is prevent retaliation from the enemy.
Two or three rounds of chain lightning or armaggedon or disintegration is going to put a hurtin' on your enemy.
Yes. That is the normal approach I have when attacking castles early on. Just blast them. They cant retaliate against such spells. Although I don't like utilising armageddon in such situations. It wrecks the structure of the weaker, higher numbered units knocking down the gate.
"In summary, if you're rushing to break the gate down with 'real' troops while the defender still has ranged attackers awake on the towers, you're definitely doing something wrong, in either case above."
True. My first goal is to break down their ranged attackers and creatures and heroes mounted on the towers. I have a level 15 spellcaster, and it is the first turn of siege combat. I would, in most cases use Lightning or implosion to defeat heavy amounts of ranged attackers, which can be the downfall of your 'sit and summon' plan. Leave it to your shooters to take out the spellcasters, as they only have at very high levels 340 HP.
Once the tower troops are immobilised, you can start heading for the inside of the castle. Usually, the enemy don't move from their castle until one of your own creatures is in range of their attack. So, why not just cast spells like poison, and when they do decide to come out, your army will be ready for them on your side of the castle.
I actually had quite a large battle on my hands in about month 5 of the game 'Chasing Reptiles'. The game thought I was undermanned. But I'll explain how I won. I'm sure many of you would be able to pull this off in the first turn, but I have only been playing Heroes IV for a month.
This is what the game thought of my chances against this army. Scouting is quite a handy skill. One of the best, in my opinion.
The army numbers read: 34 Phoenix, 212 White Tigers, 123 Griffins, 248 Wolves, and 589 Sprites.
The formation is incorrect. The actual positioning sees the pyromancer swap with the Bandits. This was so because the phoenix would most likely attack position 1, so its breath attack would have effect on my bandits and nightmares. My numbers read: 29 Hydras, 536 Bandits, 327 Orcs, 76 Nightmares, 143 Medusas. My magic hero had spells such as implosion, which is actually one of the main reasons the enemy did not attack my creatures with such potency.
It generally took the enemy 2 turns to reach my side of the battlefield. Thus, giving me some time to diminish their forces. My strategy was to attack their stronger creatures such as their phoenix, griffins and white tigers so I could make them attracted to my hydra, which at one time was able to reach 5 creatures with one attack. This proved quite effective, as there is no retaliation, which is a big aid. My medusas were centred on killing high level units, as the 'stone gaze' would have more effect.
I won the supposedly unwinnable battle, still having 15 Hydras, 23 Medusas, and Xyron in hand. It depends on which way one decides to play the game.
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"Dragons may breathe fire, but Hydras have many heads." - The Creed of Hydras
"As the Dragon drew its breath, the Hydra pounced, swiftly but powerfully, and the Dragon was defeated.”
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Daikon
Adventuring Hero
with great magic powers
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posted May 28, 2002 08:56 AM |
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I'd like to add something: Now you can have more than one hero at the same army. But initialy this does not seems to be that good to me, since the hero's power come from evolution and if you have several heroes at your group they will not advance fast. On the other hand, when you have a powerful hero them maybe it's worth to share experience with a weaker hero. The experience "lost" by the stronger hero will, proportionaly, be more valuable to the weaker hero, witch will advance much faster. For example, if you have a fighter hero as your primary hero. You choose to advance the combat skills primarily, and when he already is strong enough you choose to invest on tatics sort of skills to improve your troops powers. If you then take a new hero instead, you can advance him so much faster with the same experience that would go to your stronger hero, just adding him to the group and sharing experience. That way you will have much more levels of skills spent on tatics to boost your troops with the same amount of experience.
The point is, in my view, it's not good to have more than one hero in your main fighting group in the begining, but it seems that, as the game advances, may be worth to have another hero jon the fight. I see that you guys are very good with math, so I will let you do it. Just reply to this please, even if you think I am wrong.
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Sorry for my bad english...
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Hexa
Responsible
Legendary Hero
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posted June 23, 2002 12:49 AM |
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Revived!@
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If you want to realize your dreams >>> you have to wake up!@
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