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Oddball13579
Supreme Hero
Grandmaster of the Hunt
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posted May 27, 2020 07:15 PM |
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I don't really.
He makes good points that are valid for the people that it applies to. But it's not good to make blanket statements.
So I'll just say this; everything in moderation.
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"Just slide her down a bit farther. I could wear her like a hat." - Gnomes
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bloodsucker
Legendary Hero
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posted May 27, 2020 08:08 PM |
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Baronus said:
Body wants sex but mind know that its bad.
Why? Provide any reasoning for this, that is not based on religious believes. You said it yourself, sex is necessary for reproduction, marriage isn't.
It's just fair to state from start that I'm an Atheist.
Baronus said:
So you dont realise it.
Yes I do, nowadays not so frequently as in my twenties but still quite often.
Baronus said:
formal marriage is to small.
I never said it's small. It's the first formal contract in human history, some anthropologists believe. So it's really big deal.
And that is why I said it's a perversion (in the strict sense - that subverts the natural purpose of something).
Baronus said:
So porno is road to nowhere. No logical function. Only patology.
You said this based on what? Your religious believes? Something you heard someone saying and never mind to question?
Again, provide empirical facts to back this affirmation.
It think it has a very basic function, to provide release. Fortunately not my cup of tea.
Anecdotal example, one day about twenty years ago I went to my favorite beach to surf but it was closed. All my friends were there, it was the first time the ASP World Tour would be realized in Portugal.
What did I do? I went to my second favorite beach and surfed for two hours on an empty spot. One of the best days of my life. That night I meat Slater.
Notice I'm not defending porno, just dissecting the affirmations of a mind that doesn't seam accustomed to rational analysis.
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Baronus
Legendary Hero
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posted May 27, 2020 10:34 PM |
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No only sex is needed for reproduction! Kids must have family! Parents helps often to 25 year of life or more! Of course at the end of this period its financial help in main. Its biology not theology :0)))
Marriage is not a finalised product to consumpion in day of ,buing'. You must create it all your life like farmer his ground!
Porno from biological side makes sex boring because you lost interesting in real sex if you realise it by net. Western societes decreas his populations because they practice porno and anticonception which is similiar. Sex without correct function. Muslim countries has big growth of population because they have hard restrictions for sex. MARRIAGE ONLY! For these peple its very attractive practice! Accuratly because they dont waste sex by mass porno and sex without marriage.
Its danger for society! Its logical point of view no believe. I told only from using mind side.
From christianity point of viev its short God said not. The End.
God knows better than me. God always says good. Im not a idiot to make countter for my good.
But as a scientist I understand WHY GOD SAYS NOT! And I explain it.
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FirePaladin
Legendary Hero
DoR Modder
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posted May 27, 2020 10:44 PM |
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Well, there are more spiritual reasons to why God said not, but not gonna go into detail upon that (it would also be partially off-topic).
@bloodsucker
Must have misunderstood what you meant by perversion, sorry. Yes, relative to how nature works in itself, marriage could be called a perversion.
Baronus has a point, even without all religious and spiritual stuff. Porn does do harm to population growth and such (this is a sensible topic, let's just ignore it), and also to pleasure in sex, either after marriage or not. It also harms self-confidence, happiness after doing/finishing a job or something, etc., in the long run, if done frequently, or even once in a while, but with a lower result.
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"Goblins use pistols because a shotgun recoil would kick them off the ground flying."
The Reckoning.... it's drawing near....
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bloodsucker
Legendary Hero
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posted May 27, 2020 11:12 PM |
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Again, don't take me for a defender of porn. I like to feel the flesh.
And yes, it takes two to raise a family, specially nowadays when what you earn is not enough to pay the rent and put food on the table, at least for most people. In my father's days, he would provide for everything and was still able make some savings. That is quite hard today. But then what is the difference between a broken family and a family that almost doesn't have the time to be together? Where the kids go to kinder garden at the age of two, cause mama has to work all day?
Now, I don't believe porn will you make less interested in sex or relationships, for that matter. What I do believe is it may lead to a wrong a approach to people you feel attracted to. I guess I prefer the Romeo/Cirano talk to the balcony, even if that may also have his downsides.
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FirePaladin
Legendary Hero
DoR Modder
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posted May 27, 2020 11:14 PM |
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Well, that's very true, but I don't really see the relevance to porn in that (also, that part with family and kids and 25 years thing was more of a filler, I guess).
Well, it won't necessarily make you less interested, but will make the relationship (or anything) less "rewarding", according to studies upon the effect of self-pleasure on the brain. Just like drugs. No work, but great reward for the brain.
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"Goblins use pistols because a shotgun recoil would kick them off the ground flying."
The Reckoning.... it's drawing near....
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bloodsucker
Legendary Hero
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posted May 28, 2020 12:04 AM |
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Baronus said:
Western societes decreas his populations because they practice porno and anticonception which is similiar. Sex without correct function.
Not sure if the most important function of sex is reproduction, if it was Aureliano Buendia 16 virgins in one day would be a peak of execution (100 Years of Solitude, I guess. I'm translating a tittle in Portuguese from a book in Spanish to English...). Even I don't believe that.
I do believe the most important part of sex is to provide validation, proximity, call it love if you want but then I've been in love more times then I can count. That need of belonging is so important women developed a clitoris in the front, when all other species copulate from behind.
Baronus said:
Its danger for society!
Its not or at least society as a hole has been encouraging it. That's why I mention the capacity of a man from 50/60 years ago to provide for the entire family while today, at the same time she is encouraged to work for her own validation a woman can't stay home, cause it will take two salaries to make for a decent way of life.
Baronus said:
Its logical point of view no believe. I told only from using mind side.
It's not. In logic you deduct or infer from observation, you decided that based on prejudgement of what is good and bad.
You use a mind to think for yourself. I know you, religious people, were encouraged from childhood not to do it but still, some could overcome it. Yet, believing is not the same as knowing. You need to provide arguments and prove them, to clam a logical approach to an hypothesis.
Baronus said:
But as a scientist I understand WHY GOD SAYS NOT! And I explain it.
Well, I don't. Can you explain me why sex outside marriage and just for the sake of it is bad? Cause I can use your arguments against porn to defend a life of libertinism, specially for men, if the objective is to reproduce. A man can impregnate a dozen women while one is carrying a child.
Without some preconceived moral argument, you provided for nothing to defend a monogamic relationship, much less marriage itself (notice some religions defend marriage but are none the less polygamous).
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FirePaladin
Legendary Hero
DoR Modder
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posted May 28, 2020 12:17 AM |
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bloodsucker said:
Baronus said:
Its logical point of view no believe. I told only from using mind side.
It's not. In logic you deduct or infer from observation, you decided that based on prejudgement of what is good and bad.
You use a mind to think for yourself. I know you, religious people, were encouraged from childhood not to do it but still, some could overcome it. Yet, believing is not the same as knowing. You need to provide arguments and prove them, to clam a logical approach to an hypothesis.
I was encouraged to think, even if I am religious and spiritual (and I still do think yet). Plus, I would have arguments, but ahem, not everyone would believe the story of a random guy on the internet anyway (not like there's a problem with not believing what anyone says).
Any case, this thing ain't gonna ever end. I'm tired today, plus there's no point in proving anything here (for all of us; and even if there is, it won't be worth the effort). I thought about mentioning the problem with kids and porn, but if anyone is interested in writing an essay on that, feel free to do it, I'm not interested too much.
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"Goblins use pistols because a shotgun recoil would kick them off the ground flying."
The Reckoning.... it's drawing near....
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bloodsucker
Legendary Hero
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posted May 28, 2020 12:42 AM |
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FirePaladin said:
it won't necessarily make you less interested, but will make the relationship (or anything) less "rewarding", according to studies upon the effect of self-pleasure on the brain. Just like drugs. No work, but great reward for the brain.
So I should start taking drugs? (just kidding).
While you don't cite sources this is a more logical approach: an hypothesis, a study linking something to something, a conclusion.
I'm not saying religious people aren't able to think, I'm saying they aren't encouraged to do it, because of dogmas and revealed truths. Even Darwin was religious and in the beginning that stood in front of his observations, not allowing him to take the conclusions they pointed to.
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FirePaladin
Legendary Hero
DoR Modder
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posted May 28, 2020 12:50 AM |
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Oh, I'm simply tired, that's why no sources for now (but I take a peek at the forum while preparing for sleep). But I'm sure you might get some if you google a little (like nof****p, etc., I guess). It had to do with some toxin or thing produced by the brain, and that the brain can't really keep it up with the person being rewarded too much.
Well, I myself think all religious stuff blends together with logic and science, so... Plus, science itself is incomplete right now anyway (quantum physics, outside the universe, etc.; but this is being off-topic here).
Anyway, good night or day!
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"Goblins use pistols because a shotgun recoil would kick them off the ground flying."
The Reckoning.... it's drawing near....
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bloodsucker
Legendary Hero
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posted May 28, 2020 12:56 AM |
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I don't even need that, I know enough of brain chemistry to guess what they were expecting to find.
Good night.
Good religion
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Oddball13579
Supreme Hero
Grandmaster of the Hunt
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posted May 28, 2020 10:20 PM |
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FirePaladin said:
Baronus has a point, even without all religious and spiritual stuff. Porn does do harm to population growth and such (this is a sensible topic, let's just ignore it)
It doesn't really in the grand scheme of things. When compared to things like religious doctrine, current world events, socioeconomic crises, those hurt population growth a lot more.
FirePaladin said:
and also to pleasure in sex, either after marriage or not.
And how does it harm it exactly? Again, it really doesn't. The only thing I could see is that it gives a very unrealistic view of what sex is like in real life. I wouldn't exactly say it "harms" pleasure.
FirePaladin said:
It also harms self-confidence, happiness after doing/finishing a job or something, etc., in the long run, if done frequently, or even once in a while, but with a lower result.
Yes. That is very true. It does indeed harm self-confidence.
bloodsucker said:
What I do believe is it may lead to a wrong a approach to people you feel attracted to.
Very true. It gives people unrealistic expectations and the like. Gives them unhealthy views of relationships and how they should function.
FirePaladin said:
Well, it won't necessarily make you less interested, but will make the relationship (or anything) less "rewarding", according to studies upon the effect of self-pleasure on the brain. Just like drugs. No work, but great reward for the brain.
That is if you do it constantly. Doing it once is not going to affect you or the health of your brain at all. In fact, there are some health benefits to doing it. Like I said in a previous post; everything in moderation.
Drawing on the drug analogy, addiction to it is a very real thing. And that is when the health concerns come into play. Addiction to it can lead to self-neglect.
Another thing that many of you seem to miss when talking about sex is that there are essentially two different "versions" of it. There is taking, and there is giving.
Taking is your typical one night stand. All you care about is your own pleasure. It's shallow and hollow. It means nothing. The deed is done and then you are on your way. Two ships passing in the night.
Giving is when you are more concerned with your partners pleasure then your own. There is a lot more depth to sex when it is with someone you love. It is also vastly different than a one night stand or porn. Not to mention the health benefits that come with it and post coital aftercare.
Food for thought.
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"Just slide her down a bit farther. I could wear her like a hat." - Gnomes
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FirePaladin
Legendary Hero
DoR Modder
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posted May 28, 2020 10:34 PM |
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In any case, my religion encourages having kids in family, so...
True (your post). Btw, what I meant by harming pleasure in sex and such was connected to the reward thing, if you do it constantly (not sex, but masturbation). But since I had to wake up before sunrise yesterday and do work all day, I guess it's understandable why some of my yesterday's comments are like that.
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"Goblins use pistols because a shotgun recoil would kick them off the ground flying."
The Reckoning.... it's drawing near....
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Oddball13579
Supreme Hero
Grandmaster of the Hunt
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posted May 28, 2020 10:37 PM |
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Oh yeah for sure. High reward for minimal effort. Definitely damaging. Especially if it is indulged in often.
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"Just slide her down a bit farther. I could wear her like a hat." - Gnomes
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bloodsucker
Legendary Hero
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posted May 28, 2020 11:44 PM |
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@Oddball13579 Thanks for this post, you pointed some things much better then I did.
Oddball13579 said:
It doesn't really in the grand scheme of things. When compared to things like religious doctrine, current world events, socioeconomic crises, those hurt population growth a lot more.
Oddball13579 said:
And how does it harm it exactly? Again, it really doesn't. The only thing I could see is that it gives a very unrealistic view of what sex is like in real life.
Special thanks for this. It was exactly what I wanted to say but you did it much better.
Oddball13579 said:
It does indeed harm self-confidence.
Here I'm not sure, I guess it depends on how successful your matting dance is. Between being constantly rejected and not even trying, I'm not sure wish harms more your self-confidence. Of course, one learns from making mistakes, while you will never learn to swim if you don't dive into the water.
Oddball13579 said:
It gives people unrealistic expectations and the like. Gives them unhealthy views of relationships and how they should function.
Thank you.
Oddball13579 said:
Doing it once is not going to affect you or the health of your brain at all. In fact, there are some health benefits to doing it. Like I said in a previous post; everything in moderation.
And I didn't notice this. They immediately started testing heavy users, so drawing conclusions from such study and extrapolate to the general population is misleading.
Oddball13579 said:
Another thing that many of you seem to miss when talking about sex is that there are essentially two different "versions" of it. There is taking, and there is giving.
Taking is your typical one night stand. All you care about is your own pleasure. It's shallow and hollow. It means nothing. The deed is done and then you are on your way. Two ships passing in the night.
Giving is when you are more concerned with your partners pleasure then your own. There is a lot more depth to sex when it is with someone you love. It is also vastly different than a one night stand or porn. Not to mention the health benefits that come with it and post coital aftercare.
Here I guess I have a different point of view but I'm a very special case.
I've been working for years to learn how to allow myself to take pleasure from sex, to receive. My natural state is to focus on pleasuring the other in an attempt to make her like me and my greatest reward is to feel the woman come, in a strange dynamic of power.
This struggle is what lead me to tantra and all that new age mambo jambo.
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Baronus
Legendary Hero
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posted May 29, 2020 05:53 PM |
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Edited by Baronus at 17:55, 29 May 2020.
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Baronus
Yes validation, proximity of course! Reproduction is biological system of life. But human is not only animal so we have sex not only copulation. Sex is main for reproduction but not only! Its psychical and spritual development of personality for two persons. Which mean that ,singleplayer' like porno is perversion because you have no validation, proximity in it!
Working women of course its second problem for population growth but ,alternative' sex activity decrease real activity.
Its only logical point of viev. Reproduction is not theological question only biological based fact :0)))
All western science is from Church. See what was Oxford Cambridge Sorbone and many others :0)))
No christianity no science. We would still live in ancient Greek Rome style without Church :0)))
Sex if one man without marriage has 12 womans and 50 kids is of course perversion because he cant spent time with 50!!! kids! Childs cant see his own father. Its patology. One man can have some kids effectively to give him faterhood. Kids cant still be affraid that father goes on and would be never seen! So it must be marriage to healthy society as it was in past!
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Blizzardboy
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Nerf Herder
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posted May 29, 2020 06:10 PM |
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Baronus said:
Yes validation, proximity of course! Reproduction is biological system of life. But human is not only animal so we have sex not only copulation. Sex is main for reproduction but not only! Its psychical and spritual development of personality for two persons. Which mean that ,singleplayer' like porno is perversion because you have no validation, proximity in it!
Yes, and this is why porn consumption leads to mental health problems and even anti-social behavior, because the person is isolating sex - which is one of the most or the most strongest interpersonal bonds - and retooling it into a drug to provide a pleasure feedback loop.
That doesn't happen without consequences. On a micro level there are personal consequences and on a macro level there are also widespread societal consequences. As a race, our ability to competently form and sustain relationships becomes severely impaired.
And on top of it, this thing that is enslaving and abusing literally millions of people is called "liberating" by certain groups. Very tragic.
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"Folks, I don't trust children. They're here to replace us."
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bloodsucker
Legendary Hero
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posted May 29, 2020 07:04 PM |
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Baronus said:
Yes validation, proximity of course! Reproduction is biological system of life. But human is not only animal so we have sex not only copulation. Sex is main for reproduction but not only! Its psychical and spritual development of personality for two persons. Which mean that ,singleplayer' like porno is perversion because you have no validation, proximity in it!
Typical of apologists of your religion (not sure about others), you make a valid assertion and then you jump to a conclusion that has nothing to do with it.
Why would masturbation be a perversion? Most men that respect themselves and women will spend long periods of time without having sex. Why shouldn't they masturbate? I have an imagination fertile enough to not need to resort to porn but I don't see a point in depriving myself of release to a point where I can't see a woman without being immediately submerged by lust.
And that's what happens in some parts of the world like India and some countries of the Middle East where those restrictions apply. They even have traditions like, you kidnap a non married woman and cause of that the family of the kidnapped is forced to marry her with you, so she wont be dishonored.
Baronus said:
Working women of course its second problem for population growth but ,alternative' sex activity decrease real activity.
I would say is the main problem but it it is one that has one too many ramifications. Contraception is probably more significative then masturbation but those are another two cents. And for women to be able to stay home, salaries as a hole would have to grow up significatively in relation to the cost of living.
Baronus said:
Reproduction is not theological question only biological based fact
Yet, we aren't talking about reproduction here but about sex and porn. Let me see, admitting a woman in a monogamic relationship is pregnant of more then seven months or just gave birth what should the couple do? Should they abstain from vaginal sex but practice oral and anal? Masturbate each other? Watch porn together while doing it?
I don't know, I've never been in that situation, you tell me.
Baronus said:
All western science is from Church. See what was Oxford Cambridge Sorbone and many others :0)))
No christianity no science.
Sorry, I at least don't live in the middle ages.
Baronus said:
We would still live in ancient Greek Rome style without Church :0)))
You mean we could have had 20 Centuries of Pericles instead of the Inquisition?
Oh boy, don't make me cry.
Baronus said:
Sex if one man without marriage has 12 womans and 50 kids is of course perversion because he cant spent time with 50!!! kids!
And this is a perversion of what?
My father was married to my mother to the day she died. Yet, he worked in the commercial marine and was in journey for six months for each 15 days he spent home, worst he was the cellarer so he was working day and night to provide the ship when he was here. In the middle 70's my mother had to start working too, so me and my sister were raised by my grandmother. Am I the son of two perverts?
Baronus said:
Childs cant see his own father. Its patology.
I remember to be in the landing, I was six or seven years old (could already read and write with some fluency) and my mother was waving and said to me "say hello to your father" but I was unable to recognize him.
Baronus said:
Kids cant still be affraid that father goes on and would be never seen! So it must be marriage to healthy society as it was in past!
You mean like when the landlord could recruit him and his older son to participate in some insane crusade and dye there? When a married woman would have no rights that did come form her husband? When if she refused to have sex with him he could rapped her and have the law on his side?
Oh! the good old days... We should definitively return to that.
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Oddball13579
Supreme Hero
Grandmaster of the Hunt
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posted May 29, 2020 08:34 PM |
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Blizzardboy said:
Yes, and this is why porn consumption leads to mental health problems and even anti-social behavior, because the person is isolating sex - which is one of the most or the most strongest interpersonal bonds - and retooling it into a drug to provide a pleasure feedback loop.
I mean this happens in extreme cases. Usually it amplifies already preexisting fears and anxieties, or exacerbates low self confidence. Really the main problem lies in if you get addicted to it or are incapable or separating reality from fake. Similarly to how some people thing that what is depicted in video games is what real life is like.
Blizzardboy said:
That doesn't happen without consequences. On a micro level there are personal consequences and on a macro level there are also widespread societal consequences. As a race, our ability to competently form and sustain relationships becomes severely impaired.
Okay this is pretty true. But I wouldn't say "as a race" because there are a multitude of other reasons that have affected people's ability to form and maintain relationships. Porn is not the singular reason. And I also wouldn't say "as a race" simply because it is a blanket statement and does not apply to everyone. They are plenty of people that watch porn and are able to form and maintain meaningful relationships and friendships in life.
Blizzardboy said:
And on top of it, this thing that is enslaving and abusing literally millions of people is called "liberating" by certain groups. Very tragic.
I really wouldn't say it is enslaving us. If anything, porn just draws out what is already there. If these millions are "enslaved" as you say they are, they were already slaves to their baser instincts and porn just draws it out more.
As for the abuse part, yeah that is thing unfortunately. And the liberating part - meh. I really have no comment on that, not really informed on that side of things.
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"Just slide her down a bit farther. I could wear her like a hat." - Gnomes
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bloodsucker
Legendary Hero
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posted May 29, 2020 09:57 PM |
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Blizzardboy said:
As a race, our ability to competently form and sustain relationships becomes severely impaired.
And on top of it, this thing that is enslaving and abusing literally millions of people is called "liberating" by certain groups. Very tragic.
I had to check in the Politics in the US thread but you are not a Trumpist. What in hell do you mean by "a race"? Americans? Whites (assuming that's what you are)? The first world?
Everything that goes against the dogmas of christianity about sex and sin is in itself liberating even if I am more about the Wilhelm Reich or Osho approaches to the matter.
Again, considering how it was before the sexual revolution I believe we are better now. And curiously, my father, a man born before the end of the first World War, that spent 4 years in school but saw the entire world, slept with hundreds of women and had three girlfriends at the same time when he was already doing quimio, two or three years before he died at the age of 83, would agree. He said to me once: you are a pussy! There are so many other girls in the world, all willing to have sex without boundaries and you cry about the last one. In my time you had to wait until they got married and you were always looking behind your shoulder, cause if her husband found out he could try to kill you. I just wish I had been born when you did." I've learned something that day (always look for married women, they don't run after you).
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This thread is pages long: 
