Heroes of Might and Magic Community
visiting hero! Register | Today's Posts | Games | Search! | FAQ/Rules | AvatarList | MemberList | Profile


Age of Heroes Headlines:  
5 Oct 2016: Heroes VII development comes to an end.. - read more
6 Aug 2016: Troubled Heroes VII Expansion Release - read more
26 Apr 2016: Heroes VII XPack - Trial by Fire - Coming out in June! - read more
17 Apr 2016: Global Alternative Creatures MOD for H7 after 1.8 Patch! - read more
7 Mar 2016: Romero launches a Piano Sonata Album Kickstarter! - read more
19 Feb 2016: Heroes 5.5 RC6, Heroes VII patch 1.7 are out! - read more
13 Jan 2016: Horn of the Abyss 1.4 Available for Download! - read more
17 Dec 2015: Heroes 5.5 update, 1.6 out for H7 - read more
23 Nov 2015: H7 1.4 & 1.5 patches Released - read more
31 Oct 2015: First H7 patches are out, End of DoC development - read more
5 Oct 2016: Heroes VII development comes to an end.. - read more
[X] Remove Ads
LOGIN:     Username:     Password:         [ Register ]
HOMM1: info forum | HOMM2: info forum | HOMM3: info mods forum | HOMM4: info CTG forum | HOMM5: info mods forum | MMH6: wiki forum | MMH7: wiki forum
Heroes Community > Heroes 5 - Modders Workshop > Thread: Announcing: Gladiator Arena
Thread: Announcing: Gladiator Arena This thread is 4 pages long: 1 2 3 4 · «PREV / NEXT»
frogo
frogo


Adventuring Hero
posted October 14, 2019 11:58 PM

UPDATE:

As beautiful as the arena may already be, it can always be improved!
And therefore, after some discussion on discord, i prestent to you the improved arena system!

Advantages:

- Now gladiators may have a match when ever they want! No more waiting.

- You are more flexible with when your matches happen.

- Current standings can be transferred (Hall of fame stays as it is, only one with a current streak would be Bandaro)

- There is even less pressure and commitment, as you can easily decline a challenge (unless you are the current champion that is).

For details: read the first post (from "--set up--" to "Game version:"


____________

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
NovaChaser
NovaChaser

Tavern Dweller
posted October 21, 2019 10:19 AM

Upload some replays/videos already so your fanbase (me) is appeased

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Galaad
Galaad

Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
posted October 21, 2019 11:19 AM

...Or at least post some commentary.
Both would be the best of course!
____________

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
frogo
frogo


Adventuring Hero
posted October 21, 2019 06:39 PM

After a peaceful period, it was about time for some blood in the arena!

frogo (Isabell) defeats Caracal/Shapey (Yrwanna) on Lets Fight.

current standings:

current ranking:
(streak: 1)
Bandaro
frogo
___
(streak: 0)
aruarian
Bulya
dredknight
omegakiller
caracal


The Hall of fame remains the same with Bulya at the top.

In terms of replays: It is highly recommended to safe you replays.
I say that while coming to you guys empty handed Sadly the game ended by surrender due to an overwhelming lvl advantage.
It did have some intresting PvE fights which i should ve safed (had a really rough start and wiggled my way through), so i take blame for that. From what i ve heard aruarian will stream his persepective (no pressure ), i ll keep you updated on when that happens.
____________

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
caracal
caracal


Adventuring Hero
posted October 22, 2019 11:40 PM
Edited by caracal at 00:05, 23 Oct 2019.

After my last game with Frogo I took some time to think and I have few suggestions. Now I don't say any of this to discredit Frogo. He is way better player than me which he proved in many games with me in the past, but lately I have been watching a lot of tournaments and ranked games in H3 and I realized few things. First of all reload in our games is waay too forgiving. Frogo reloaded something like 4 or 5 times due to overaggressive play and it cost him all together around 7k gold. Now in week 2 on Let's Fight you already are getting 5k gold of daily income which means he lost barely over a one day of earnings for 5 reloads, where in H3 if you die due to agressive play it's game over. There are no reloads at all. In our games the cost of reload is so low that better player can keep reloading until he gets the victory against very difficult odds. I think it promotes reckless gameplay where high risk gives high reward and no penalty apart from some pocket money that you hardly feel the loss of. That shouldn't be the case. If you are really good you are going to take high risk for high reward but you should accept that if you lose it's game over. Now H3 is slightly different in this aspect cause hero isn't as important as in H5 so I could suggest perhaps 2 reloads per game only and each costing 10k gold if you don't have that amount the day you killed yourself you lose. This way everybody would think twice and double check if he has money to buy himself out before they attack something that says DEADLY.  Another thing that players do in H3 is choosing 2 towns from the entire pool (that is randomly being chosen by game so we would have to find a way to do that, perhaps 3rd person could choose 2 random towns) and then 2 players are bidding for town they want to play. The winner gets town and the loser gets more money on start. After that is bidding for colour/starting position. Last thing I would want to suggest is map reset. Each player can ask once per game for reset of the map within first 2 or 3 days. Now heroes in H3 have more movement points in the beginning so they can discover more so they can reset only in 1/1/1 but I think that you can discover quite a lot in the first 3 turns in H5 and decide if you want to reset, if you have good artifacts to go for or even if you were lucky with level ups. Today I was practicing a little on DE and after 2 turns I discovered that I got very unlucky with levels, artifacts (sextan on DE map LOL) and even guards. I would call for reset of that map no doubt. What do you think?

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
frogo
frogo


Adventuring Hero
posted October 23, 2019 01:37 AM
Edited by frogo at 01:52, 23 Oct 2019.

Hey Shapey
Thanks for giving your opinion and suggestions
I ll try my best to adress everything!

On the subject of reloads:

You are right that i took a good amount of reloads that game.
Generally i d say i m a rather safe player with not to many loads,
but with the high RNG that is involved in a heroes game, it can happen for sure.
I had a run of 8 bad chests in a row
(in which i was force to take exp anyway, as otherwise i wouldnt have been able to keep moving).
My first 3 encounters where gremlinsabouteur x2 and arcane shooters.
Those 3 where must fights, as the saboteurs where guaring wood+ore and arcane shootes where guarding the tripple chest + artifact,
a much needed exp boost.
When spending some money on t3, Haven does have the tools to win a fight vs a strong shooter early on,
but 3 was rather rough, given my hero was very weak. The 7k gold did hurt me
(had to sell all artis to still get capitol, even though i had a money-ability-hero).
Also note that you probably had no money problems because those 7k where sent to you
(so 14 k diffrence, minus the loads that you took.)
My goal with the reloads was to find a sweet-spot where ppl wouldnt just throw restarts just because something didnt go perfectly,
but also wouldnt be punished even more for having bad spots. The no-reload rule is just not an option.
It would result in way to many games ending with an unsatisfying bummer of nothingness.
I got a lot of positive feedback for implementing such rule. This doesnt mean that the forumla can not be optimized.
You are not the first person to feel that reloads may be a little to cheap and therefore ill change it:

RULES CHANGE:
Reloads now cost (500+100*days_passed)*reloads_taken

This will be the formula for now on, but you can still discuss this and i m open to further change.


On the subject of random towns:

This would probably be something i can see in a knock-out tourney,
but i feel like our current system is fitting this format very well.
In the Arena, there are ppl of very diffrent skill-lvls.
I want all of these ppl to experience a good time.
Therefore i want ppl that are less experiences with the game to play with the heroes that they are more comfortable with,
so they dont just get stuck in creeping stage and the game ends there.
Stronger players will be forced to play diffrent heroes as they gain a streak, as you can not repeat a hero.
This also weakens the players the longer their streak goes, which i think is a good mechanism.
Also i want players to be able to prepare something and reward their preparation.
If you dont know what faction you ll get, preparation becomes rather impossible.
So i would like to stick with what we have here.

On the Subject of resets:

I dont want players to reset the map whenever they are in a uncomfortable situation.
A reset after 3 turns takes to much time, especially if both take it. Its intresting, Wolly even suggested to me that reloads should be forbidden on day1, as that resets everything and he felt somewhat betrayed, because he had a pretty good starting map, which he then lost and it got worse. I found this very understandable and its also a problem with resets. A reset barely helps making the situation better, as if one player wants to reset while the other doesnt, this means one player was satisfied with his map, which could change after a reset. If it was possible to only reset one side of the map, this would help more.
If you want a reset, you got the option to buy a reload first turn.
Bad artifacts are never really a problem, just sell them for money and you got yourself a decent compensation.

____________

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
thGryphn
thGryphn


Promising
Famous Hero
posted October 23, 2019 01:38 AM

I'm not in the tournament and have zero stakes but if reloads are as cheap as caracal says, then I must agree that it's way too cheap.

Just an idea, how about making the cost of reloads relative with a lower bound? For example, 10% of all your resources, but at least 5000 gold?

I also like the idea of map restart within first three days, but it should also come at cost and be given only once.

Just my two cents' worth...

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Caracal
Caracal


Adventuring Hero
posted October 23, 2019 06:59 AM
Edited by Caracal at 10:15, 23 Oct 2019.

I did write that reset of the map would be allowed only once for each player for the game. You said you had to reload several times due to early guards level. That's exactly what you could have used reset for instead of multiple reloads. Also aggressive play should be punished if you fail at it. Infinite amount of reloads still creates situation where high risk choices don't really cost you anything after week 1. Gold is not a problem cause you can get it from chests. It's your choice to take exp. It's not mandatory. I had lots of gold not because of what you gave me but because I built city hall in second town. Two city halls and 1 gold mine already give you 5k gold per day. You don't need Capitol on this map. Higher cost of reloads is appreciated but I would still like to see limit amount to them. The random town bidding I understand your point that perhaps it can be implemented in the future when people are more comfortable with more towns. I don't think that player becomes weaker with each victory cause he can't choose the same hero again but he can choose the same class. That for example gives me option of playing with 6 warlocks in a row who pretty much play the same( their specializations are nice bonus but nothing to build your strategy around)before I'm forced to choose less comfortable hero. And when I lose, it resets so this way I can keep playing warlocks only. I mean if somebody among us will have 6 win streak that already proves that there's hardly a point to play vs that person.

Hmm our game also made me realize something. Let's fight map needs tweaking. You having devils while me having seraphs on a break created very imbalanced chances for us. What if one had black dragons and the other had ghost dragons. That's hardly fair game. I really admire your foresight Frogo while creating DE map. You put two tier 7 on a break point so that player has a choice of more acceptable option. Jebus map at least in h3 has also that choice. I expect it to be the case in h5 version as well although I haven't played it yet. I believe some good map creator (cough Frogo ) should place second tier7 on a break point on Let's fight so you can always have choice instead of losing cause you had blackies while your opponent had spectrals on break.

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
frogo
frogo


Adventuring Hero
posted October 23, 2019 12:26 PM

On the subject of resets:

There is one big diffrence between a reset and a reload.
In case of a reload, the player that didnt reload is never effected in a negative way. If he so desires, he can always replay his turn exactly as done before. With a reset, his side his randomed again aswell. If this wasnt the case, i d be more open minded to this kind of change, but as it is, i really dont see this resulting in a fun player experience or really help a lot with the problem.

All i can offer is to add a outpost-tree on the LetsFight map, so you can see the majority of your spots t1 and can make a more well-founded decision on if he wants to take a reload in that spot.

On the subject of reloads:
Mostly, reloads punish the player that already got punished by armg.
Getting tough spots is what forced him into a risky move. The high RNG in heroes games will always eventually force a player in difficult spots. Now, by addind super high reload-costs is just adding insult to injury. Also, it is to note that while you may not feel the impact of the lost money immedialty (i certainly did, but that aside) you eventually will.
On any map where the income is not higher than the cost of sustaining production in all towns, lost money will result in less units in a final fight. All maps in the current pool satisfy this createria. You may not feel it during creeping, but eventually the richer player will put more army on the field.
With the new formula, i >doubled< reload cost.
I for one think thats already a little to high (granted i agree with use it was a litte to low before), but i wanted to put it out there and if you enjoy it more, then so be it.


On the subject of non-repeating heroes:

You are right that the streak doenst make the player weaker super fast, but he does get weaker. Warlocks also are somewhat a special case of being very simular that doesnt transfer very well to other classes.
A 6 game winning streak seems very possible to me and while you maybe dont stand much of a chance against that player, maybe after he used his 6 best heroes you do? If not, eventually the point will come where he has to go with very weak heroes and will eventualy not be able to pull it off.

I am open to change on this subject, but i do want to weaken players with higher streak to a certain degree and i also would like to reward preperation while forcing some sort of diversity in hero choices. Just randoming 2 factions doesnt give any disadvantage to a player with the higher streak making endless streaks possible.


On the subject of the unfairness of Lets Fight

First, thanks for your kind words
And also i agree with you, there are a few things i really dont like about the Lets Fight map. When choosing a mappool, i still had to acknowledge that this map is widely played, liked and known. Therefore i decided to include it, as i though ppl would be pleased to see it as an option. I also dont think its a bad map by any means, just that it has some factors i dont agree with.

Subtle changes on that map can certainly be made, but i want players  that know that map from ealier times to still feel at home on that map.
____________

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Caracal
Caracal


Adventuring Hero
posted October 23, 2019 12:41 PM
Edited by Caracal at 13:06, 23 Oct 2019.

Okay you have changed the reload formula let's see how it works for now. I must say though that I disagree with your notion that bringing more army against player who has stronger hero compensates the reloads. As I said before H5 is not like H3 where army is more important than hero. You know very well that a higher level hero can win no problem against twice the army and on Let's fight armies don't get even big cause of the size of the map. Army that a player can buy for extra gold from reloads will not matter against a player who gained 10 levels more due to risky play. Even 2 week population of an army on Let's fight won't make the difference against big hero level difference. Regarding resets you're saying that a player is punished cause of randomness of the game. Remember that both players get to reset. If you want to eliminate randomness then the only option would be to create mirror map where both heroes get exactly the same guards parties and everything. As it is now reload day 1 is basically reset anyway. The only downside is the amount you can discover in turn 1. Well the arena is still young let's give it more time I suppose to see what really is an issue.

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
frogo
frogo


Adventuring Hero
posted October 23, 2019 01:08 PM
Edited by frogo at 16:05, 23 Oct 2019.

Dying in a fight against a tough creep doesnt necesarrily result in a higher lvl hero (on lets fight, with most heroes, you kill everything or nearly everything in your area anyway). But it will certainly cost you money that reduces your army, while increasing your enemies finances (given the formula, a single reload obviously doesnt).
In my experience, risky play generally isnt a result of greed, but rather desperation after some unlucky RNG.

A map with only fixed creeps would obviously get boring rather quickly, the RNG in heroes is also part of the fun sometimes.
A restart on day1 indeed is a reset, which is why i offered to add an outpost so you can make a more well-founded decision on if you want to take a reload. I still dont like that this steals the opponent's start, as he can not just repeat his turn as he could in a reload, but i just dont see any way to solve this really.



____________

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Caracal
Caracal


Adventuring Hero
posted October 23, 2019 02:49 PM

Sounds good enough. So I would ask for that outlook and are you going to put second tier7 on break point as well to have break option like you did on DE?

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
bulya
bulya


Adventuring Hero
posted October 23, 2019 03:57 PM

I'll just add my 2 cents here.

The reloads obviously make some moves more forgiving, which allows taking more risks. The system rewards a player that is willing to go for more fights as he can reload in case he lost in one of them. But it goes for both players, so considering the system taking a bit more risks can be a good thing. Its also good for improving, as unless you try you don't really know if you can beat that creep and what chances do you have against it. So I'd just say that even though the system rewards players that are willing to take more risks rather then players that are trying to play safe, its just the system and everyone can adjust. When I play vs the AI I obviously reload if I die to a creep, and when I play a PvP usually the player I play against doesn't mind if I ask reloading. The system makes it more costly then a casual PvP game which is good, as there is something on the line, but making brutal rules regarding reloads will make it less fun I think. So if you aren't used to reloads or taking risks you can simply adjust, and you will improve as a result as well (even for a system that does not allow reloads, judging your chances against a creep comes from experience, and the more you fight you gain that experience faster).

May be if we do a tournament that has more on the line and include only the best players we have, then perhaps making reloads and too risky moves way more costly can be a good thing. As part of the game is judging what I can or can't do with the hero / army I have, as well as whether the risk worth it or not. But since its quite of a casual tournament with casual players playing in it, the reload system is quite good I think. I do agree that they were too cheap, and may be the cost change can make it better, but they can't be too costly as well.

Regarding fixed creeps then I don't think it will really help, as some heroes can have a fine time vs a creep that is very tricky for some other heroes.
Frogo reminded gremlins he had to fight, and for Haven the way to deal with them early on is getting enough footman and WM, and from that point on its not that hard. But Fortress, for example, can have a way easier time vs gremlins and most t1 and t2 shooters on day 1, as they can deploy shieldguards (and on Lets Fight! even mountain guards), and have enough damage output with a balista or destruct first, as well as hero attack. And due to the large shield the shieldguards will just take the losses, and there won't be that many. Its just an example of how one hero can have a bad time vs some creep that another will laugh at. And I bet there are other examples as well.

Perhaps the gatekeeper on Lets Fight! can be either fixed (either hard no matter what for all heroes, or easy for all), or a second path can be made with a second random gatekeeper so that there will be a choice which one to fight. But making fixed creeps won't solve the problem, and even make it a bit boring as the RNG is part of the fun, even when it is against you.

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
frogo
frogo


Adventuring Hero
posted October 23, 2019 04:41 PM

@Bulya agreed

@Shapey
Sure i can do that
I aswell think 2 t7 choices are a nice change and an outlook-tree can  easily be added aswell (obviously you can still get unlucky with 2 choices, but we want to keep some RNG and the chances for a doable t7 increase a lot). I will adjust the Let's Fight map to satisfy these criteria soon.


____________

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Caracal
Caracal


Adventuring Hero
posted October 23, 2019 05:16 PM

Hmm Bulya highlighted important problem in my thinking. I was comparing rules of our friendly arena to the rules of a national tournament in h3 I watched lately. He has a great point that our games are not to point out who is the best but they're mainly for fun and especially for us to learn how to play better, something I was always emphasising as the most important thing to me. I'm thankful to Bulya for reminding me the purpose of this arena. Thx for the fixes to Let's Fight Frogo. Let me k ow when we can download improved version of the map.

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
frogo
frogo


Adventuring Hero
posted October 23, 2019 05:33 PM

I actually think that even for a tourney more focused on actually finding the strongest player, overly harsh punishment for loads will give a snowball-effect to RNG-based bad luck, so i still wouldnt make it a lot diffrent. But i suppose thats a discussion for when we actually have a tourney that focuses more on finding the strongest player than having a good time
____________

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
frogo
frogo


Adventuring Hero
posted October 26, 2019 03:46 PM

Your prayers have been heard!

And the savior to hear them is: aruarian

At roughly 6pm CEST today (in ~2 hours) he will stream his position in his upcoming Arena match!

https://www.twitch.tv/aruariantv/videos

____________

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
frogo
frogo


Adventuring Hero
posted October 27, 2019 09:50 PM
Edited by frogo at 22:07, 27 Oct 2019.

Today, aruarian and frogo entered the arena.
And once more we ask ourselfs, who lives - who dies?
Well, both entered the arena already being kinda dead, as it was a necro mirror.

frogo (Kasper) defeats aruarian (Vidomina) on Let's Fight!


You want replays?

aruarian streamed it!


you missed the stream?

too bad, he forgot to enable VODs Next time dont miss the stream


BUT

He will atleast upload the final fight on his youtube

EDIT: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NB_UF_vivCE
(generally aru does talk on his stream, he just couldnt today)


Current gladiators:

streak 2:
frogo   (used: Isabell, Kasper)

streak 1:
Bandaro  (used: Duncan)

streak 0:
Bulya
omegakilla
caracal
aruarian
dreadknight


This also changes our Hall of Fame:

HALL OF FAME:
Bulya [streak: 2]
frogo [streak: 2 (ongoing)]
Bandaro [streak:1 (ongoing)]
____________

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
NovaChaser
NovaChaser

Tavern Dweller
posted October 28, 2019 11:00 AM

You caught him with his pants down, regrettably, otherwise it would have been very close judging by how his destruction magic was doing some serious unit deletion . Thanks for the video, keep 'em coming, gladiators!

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
frogo
frogo


Adventuring Hero
posted October 28, 2019 11:35 AM

I agree, he surely wasnt prepared for a fight right there. The one-sidedness of the fight is certainly not to be seen as a one-sidedness in terms of skill. I think aru is a great player, but as you said, he got caught in the wrong moment there.
Kudos to him for streaming the first half (allthough the VOD sadly is lost) and uploading the 2nd half on youtube despite of how it went for him in the end
____________

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Jump To: « Prev Thread . . . Next Thread » This thread is 4 pages long: 1 2 3 4 · «PREV / NEXT»
Post New Poll    Post New Topic    Post New Reply

Page compiled in 0.0531 seconds