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Heroes Community > Heroes 7+ Altar of Wishes > Thread: a novel idea for reviving HoMM8
Thread: a novel idea for reviving HoMM8 This thread is 7 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 · NEXT»
veteran_player
veteran_player


Hired Hero
posted January 19, 2020 06:26 PM
Edited by veteran_player at 20:04, 19 Apr 2020.

I have fond memories of playing Heroes of Might & Magic: a Strategic Quest back in 1995. One of the first and most fun things about it was that when you approached an enemy stack there was a fair chance that instead of fighting you, yearning for greater glory, they would try and join you, becoming part of your army. This was a really fun aspect of the game that went missing in most later iterations.

Now, what if this was brought back to life? Like the Diplomacy skill in HoMM2&3, but more practical.

What if an updated HoMM8 contained Heroes capable of receiving and storing such beneficial reinforcements. What if instead of just having 7 slots for the same army, fighting battle after battle, additional stack slots could be created. Call it backup, a troop reserve, in the rear of the hero's army. It could be as simple as adding a few additional, extra slots for heroes' potential armies, whether fighting, or not. It would bring more strategy, variety, and a new dimension to gameplay. A simple addition to the formula of the past 25 years.

Thank you. Your opinions and critiques are welcome.
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Baronus
Baronus


Promising
Supreme Hero
posted January 19, 2020 07:28 PM

You can play using 2 heroes! The second can lead reserves ;0)))
I agree that 7 slots for units and 4 slots for machines is too much. 5 slots + machine in HI,II make these games more playable.
5 slots for units 2 for machines is enough. I think that like in HIV we can have more units in town to choice. Eg. 7 from 14. I this case gamplay style would be more different.

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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
What if Elvin was female?
posted January 20, 2020 07:49 AM

This has been discussed before and there is merit to the idea. Classic diplomacy could use some polish and it's easy to run out of slots, esp if there are also alt upgrades.
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The_Green_Drag
The_Green_Drag


Supreme Hero
posted January 21, 2020 03:48 PM

One of the many great parts of 1,2, and 4 is that not every faction can buy all their units with their town income alone. The game forces you out cause you rely on capturing other towns or gold mines.

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Drakon-Deus
Drakon-Deus


Undefeatable Hero
posted January 22, 2020 12:02 PM

The_Green_Drag said:
One of the many great parts of 1,2, and 4 is that not every faction can buy all their units with their town income alone. The game forces you out cause you rely on capturing other towns or gold mines.


Indeed. I recently played 4 and noticed that aspect immediately. I cannot say if I prefer that, but it's certainly challenging.
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NimoStar
NimoStar


Responsible
Supreme Hero
Modding the Unmoddable
posted January 26, 2020 02:26 AM

I do prefer that. In any case it is evident to me Ubisosft will not ever produce a good, fully featured, modddable and debugged heroes game again. (since V)

So, I propose fans join in in making a crowd-funded, fan created heroes-like TBS-RPG hybrid.

Gameplay merchanics can't be copyrighted so as long as it isn't set in the official worlds (Ashan, Axeoth, etc.) it will be fine.
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veteran_player
veteran_player


Hired Hero
posted February 01, 2020 12:38 AM
Edited by veteran_player at 19:10, 26 Mar 2020.

Better heroes with extra slots

The game should be more Hero-centric rather than castle-structure-or-dwelling-centric.
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veteran_player
veteran_player


Hired Hero
posted February 02, 2020 05:51 PM
Edited by veteran_player at 16:47, 27 Mar 2020.

Also...

The morale penalty for having troops of different alignments is unnecessary. It is annoying, disabling and unproductive. Heroes I didn't have anything like that. Not all tweaks to the HoMM formula work out for the better..
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MattII
MattII


Legendary Hero
posted March 29, 2020 12:37 AM

veteran_player said:
The morale penalty for having troops of different alignments is unnecessary. It is annoying, disabling and unproductive. Heroes I didn't have anything like that. Not all tweaks to the HoMM formula work out for the better..
Within reason I can see this, trading troops between Castle/Rampart/Tower ought to be possible without morale issues, but between Castle and Dungeon/Necropolis/Inferno? Yeah, I can't see the latter not incurring a moralle issue.

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veteran_player
veteran_player


Hired Hero
posted March 29, 2020 06:22 PM
Edited by veteran_player at 18:56, 27 Apr 2020.

"Refugee Camp" high level troop hiring dwellings/structures on the map

These are a creative contribution to HoMM5, allowing you to purchase from 2 to a dozen, tier 3 to tier 6 units, from any faction, once per week. This can be very useful, particularly in early game. I use them all the time! But they are not the definitive answer to the game's evolution. Become even more creative!
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FirePaladin
FirePaladin


Supreme Hero
Making map for HotA then WoG
posted March 29, 2020 06:37 PM

I say creatures could have more "activated abilities", similar to King's Bounty (2008-2015). The higher the tier, the more abilities the unit could have (eg. most level 4 have 1 ability, but most level 7 have 2)

Let's say, for example, ArchAngels can resurrect a troop once per battle, but can also apply a small buff every several turns.

Or dendroids/ents/treants have a "rush" ability that can be used once (+X speed this turn), and another one which enables them to form a defensive wall, increasing their defending capability.

Arcdevils can both summon a demonic creature once per battle and teleport another troop in front of them just like in H5.

Troglodytes can burrow underground (basically, "teleport") once per battle.

There are so many possibilities.

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veteran_player
veteran_player


Hired Hero
posted March 30, 2020 06:42 PM
Edited by veteran_player at 18:57, 27 Apr 2020.

Temple of Shalassa

"Make a generous offering and you will be rewarded greatly" tents on the adventure map.

These are another creative addition to HoMM5. They can be even more useful than the previously mentioned kind of reinforcement source. They require giving up a large quantity of a resource or 1 or 2 non-critical artifacts and reward you with a good quantity of morale-neutral extra troops. But unfortunately they can be very rare... Very few of them on the adventure map...
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veteran_player
veteran_player


Hired Hero
posted April 14, 2020 05:10 AM

By the way, I am very nostalgic for Heroes 3!
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Rimgrabber
Rimgrabber


Known Hero
It's a fixer-upper
posted April 14, 2020 08:47 AM
Edited by Rimgrabber at 08:49, 14 Apr 2020.

I've always liked the idea of having alternate upgrades where 1 upgrade is pretty straightforward (scout-assassin) and the other is a bit counter-intuitive and changes the role of the creature somewhat(scout-stalker.) At first glance, the assassin looks much better because it retains the ability to shoot while still having poison and no melee penalty, but upon closer inspection, the stalker is one of the most useful creatures in the game for creeping.

Another example of this is the previously mentioned treants. The ancient treants are a pretty straightforward upgrade that improves upon the base treant's main role, whereas the savage treant at first seems to be a downgrade with its ability to give up the entangling roots, but this ability gives it another role entirely that's better in certain situations.

There's a lot of cool untapped potential here. For example, archers could have 1 upgrade that's their pretty standard marksman upgrade, while having an alternate upgrade that turns them in units for like the scouts but, say, reduces their hero's movement penalty on rough terrain. Maybe black dragons could have an upgrade where they lose their magic immunity but gain a sort of magic mirror effect instead. Stuff like that is just so fun to me.


NimoStar said:
I do prefer that. In any case it is evident to me Ubisosft will not ever produce a good, fully featured, modddable and debugged heroes game again. (since V)

So, I propose fans join in in making a crowd-funded, fan created heroes-like TBS-RPG hybrid.

Gameplay merchanics can't be copyrighted so as long as it isn't set in the official worlds (Ashan, Axeoth, etc.) it will be fine.


Agree 100000%. I'd love to work on the more creative aspects of this hypothetical project.

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http://heroescommunity.com/viewthread.php3?TID=46284&pagenumber=1
^ Part 2 of my proposal for Heroes 8 (Part 3 coming soon)

http://heroescommunity.com/viewthread.php3?TID=44815
^ My novelization

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FirePaladin
FirePaladin


Supreme Hero
Making map for HotA then WoG
posted April 14, 2020 10:22 AM

@Rimgrabber

That's the essence of alternative upgrades.

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Alon
Alon


Adventuring Hero
posted April 14, 2020 11:00 AM

You can go even further with upgrades and make it plausible to mix an unupgraded unit with its upgrade in the same army; a lot of Starcraft unit compositions work this way.

For example, in the 15th century pikemen and halberdiers were historically mixed in the same army formations, the pikemen having more reach and the halberdiers having a stronger weapon. So in Heroes terms, give the pikemen a reach of 1 and a special ability saying that if attacked in melee they strike first even when defending, but then give the halberdiers twice the damage output of pikemen and slightly better defense, so that pikeman-halberdier becomes a strong unit comp.
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FirePaladin
FirePaladin


Supreme Hero
Making map for HotA then WoG
posted April 14, 2020 11:42 AM
Edited by FirePaladin at 11:42, 14 Apr 2020.

Alon said:
You can go even further with upgrades and make it plausible to mix an unupgraded unit with its upgrade in the same army; a lot of Starcraft unit compositions work this way.

For example, in the 15th century pikemen and halberdiers were historically mixed in the same army formations, the pikemen having more reach and the halberdiers having a stronger weapon. So in Heroes terms, give the pikemen a reach of 1 and a special ability saying that if attacked in melee they strike first even when defending, but then give the halberdiers twice the damage output of pikemen and slightly better defense, so that pikeman-halberdier becomes a strong unit comp.


Similar to H5 Haven archers, which is a very cool concept. I agree this should be a thing. This way, you technically start with an upgraded unit and can unlock 2 more variations by upgrading the dwelling.

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Alon
Alon


Adventuring Hero
posted April 14, 2020 12:20 PM

Yep. And if it's systematic this presumably happens at the expense of having fewer base units per faction - 6-7 rather than the 8-12 of most proposals here. That in turn might make it plausible to have more factions, more H3 than H4.

The one thing I'd caution: while some upgrades and variations are pretty natural, like unicorn/pegasus, spearman/pikeman/halberdier, outrider/cavalier/mounted archer, ogre/ogre mage, and skeleton/skeleton archer, I think most aren't. Upgrades for phoenixes, vampires, angels, and genies are all possible game-mechanically, but they'll look weird, rather than coming from well-known historical or fantasy tropes.

One of the cool things about H3 is that nearly every creature outside the Inferno and Fortress lineups comes from a recognizable mythological basis, and for the most part plays in line with what one would expect (and this is also true of the hydra and the cerberus); H5-7 aren't as good about it. Compare this with Starcraft, where maybe 5 units have any external reference point and there's been a lot of fandom growling over changes that made the battlecruiser, archetypically a powerful capital ship, into a mid-game harassment unit that sucks in frontal battles.
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FirePaladin
FirePaladin


Supreme Hero
Making map for HotA then WoG
posted April 14, 2020 12:34 PM
Edited by FirePaladin at 12:38, 14 Apr 2020.

@Alon

The ones in Inferno and Fortress are clearly classic recognizable creatures, I dunno about everyone else though. They are basic demonic creatures together with some well-known beasts.

I don't quite understand how some alt units wouldn't work, for example Angels and Genies: Seraph from H5 was well-made and Genie alt could instead cast debuffs. How could they look wierd? And Vampire Princes too. Phoenixes' alt could instead be something similar like Simurgh, evolved from the Firebird. And at least the first three are clearly recognizable, Serpahs, Cursing Genies and Vampire Princes. And these are all pretty natural upgrades, to be honest.

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Alon
Alon


Adventuring Hero
posted April 14, 2020 12:46 PM

Gnolls, lizardpeople-as-archers, gorgons, basilisks-with-legs, and wyverns are all D&D lifts, I think? And imp, gog, demon, pit fiend, and devil are all existing names but they don't connote much beyond "Mediterranean Christian hell," and even then, the devil doesn't play like one would expect from the tricky, charming Christian devil.

On second thought, you're right, genies can have variants, sure, especially if you're comfortable with ifrit as an upgrade, like in Might and Magic. With angels, I guess it's a choice of whether to emphasize the warrior aspect or the healer aspect? So yeah, that works too.

I still feel weird about mythology-mixing in the same unit, though, like roc/thunderbird, or simurgh/phoenix.
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