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Heroes Community > Heroes 7+ Altar of Wishes > Thread: a novel idea for reviving HoMM8
Thread: a novel idea for reviving HoMM8 This thread is 10 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 · «PREV / NEXT»
veteran_player
veteran_player


Adventuring Hero
posted May 07, 2020 05:54 PM

FirePaladin said:
veteran_player said:
For me, Sid Meyer's Alpha Centauri was a decisively better strategy game than the popularly/(nostalgically?) beloved Heroes of Might & Magic III.


From what point of view? Visual, strategical, feeling, etc.?

And even so, I believe HoMM should be very similar in mechanics to H3. Otherwise, it's not HoMM (as it happened several times).


From the thematic point of view! Alpha Centauri was a beautifully crafted, immersive space simulation. It connected with you, the player, from the planet's perspective. Both games being released in 1999, SM's AC left the player with a deeper, more meaningful earthly experience than teen-favorite HoMM3.
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FirePaladin
FirePaladin


Legendary Hero
Undorcover modder
posted May 07, 2020 06:25 PM

Ah, thought you were gonna say 40% of HoMM's mechanics should be changed.
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Alon
Alon


Known Hero
posted May 07, 2020 10:10 PM

I mean, that's why Endless Space and Endless Legend exist!

But anyway: H3 is good, but SMAC is also good, and probably better because it has more complex gameplay, but ultimately these are probably the two best-received 1990s TBSes for a reason.
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veteran_player
veteran_player


Adventuring Hero
posted May 07, 2020 11:14 PM
Edited by veteran_player at 23:18, 07 May 2020.

the thread...

This thread I started has been a success! I hope it gets put by the developers to good use. It's been a long five years since the last release, and the world is finally waking up to the full potential of HoM&M!!
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FirePaladin
FirePaladin


Legendary Hero
Undorcover modder
posted May 07, 2020 11:22 PM

veteran_player said:
This thread I started has been a success! I hope it gets put by the developers to good use. It's been a long five years since the last release, and the world is finally waking up to the full potential of HoM&M!!


Which devs? Ubi? Those guys have put the franchise on sale a few years ago.
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MattII
MattII


Legendary Hero
posted May 09, 2020 11:50 AM

Related to the original post of the thread, I figure I'll link to an idea I proposed some years ago,

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Alon
Alon


Known Hero
posted May 09, 2020 02:46 PM

MattII said:
Related to the original post of the thread, I figure I'll link to an idea I proposed some years ago,


Ooh. I should maybe start a thread about tactics that is explicitly not about lineups, which is what most threads here have been about recently.
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FirePaladin
FirePaladin


Legendary Hero
Undorcover modder
posted May 09, 2020 02:52 PM
Edited by FirePaladin at 14:52, 09 May 2020.

Alon said:
MattII said:
Related to the original post of the thread, I figure I'll link to an idea I proposed some years ago,


Ooh. I should maybe start a thread about tactics that is explicitly not about lineups, which is what most threads here have been about recently.


Thing is, tactics will (and should) usually be the same in HoMM as in H3, since that's what most fans demand. And this way, it's more normal/usual to discuss, lore, creatures and such rather than "what should we change in HoMM?". I'm not saying I'm against such a thread, but it can clearly be seen what happened when HoMM changed mechanics.
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Alon
Alon


Known Hero
posted May 09, 2020 06:54 PM

I don't think there was negative reaction to H4 mechanics like simultaneous retaliation with first strike as a special ability? The complaints were about the AI (rushed release) and the hero-fights-in-army shtick, plus some broken base about having to choose between two units.
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FirePaladin
FirePaladin


Legendary Hero
Undorcover modder
posted May 09, 2020 07:07 PM
Edited by FirePaladin at 19:07, 09 May 2020.

Alon said:
I don't think there was negative reaction to H4 mechanics like simultaneous retaliation with first strike as a special ability? The complaints were about the AI (rushed release) and the hero-fights-in-army shtick, plus some broken base about having to choose between two units.


Exactly. Even such small things made the game "bad" to the fans. But again, never said you shouldn't create your proposed thread, or that I'm against it.
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Rimgrabber
Rimgrabber


Famous Hero
It's a fixer-upper
posted May 09, 2020 08:16 PM

Methinks tactics was overpowered as it was in H3. You shouldn't be able to start your creatures halfway across the battlefield, especially when if you got the first spell you could simply pop a mass haste and have all your troops reach the enemy before they even get a chance to move. Tactics should only expand your arrangement area by 1 or maybe 2 rows IMO. It's still an extremely viable pick in H5 where that's all it does. Of course there is room for innovation like in H7 where they let you place up to 9 stacks.
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http://heroescommunity.com/viewthread.php3?TID=46284&pagenumber=1
^ Part 2 of my proposal for Heroes 8 (Part 3 coming soon)

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FirePaladin
FirePaladin


Legendary Hero
Undorcover modder
posted May 09, 2020 08:21 PM

Agree.
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Alon
Alon


Known Hero
posted May 09, 2020 09:06 PM

I think of tactics as a choose-your-battlefield type of skill. So if your units do better when there are a lot of obstructions and choke points (like ranged units, esp. AoE ones like gogs and liches) then you want a battlefield with those; if your units do better in the open, like cavaliers with jousting bonus, then you want no obstructions. The two armies' tactics skills are compared and the terrain will favor the side with the stronger skill.
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FirePaladin
FirePaladin


Legendary Hero
Undorcover modder
posted May 09, 2020 10:17 PM
Edited by FirePaladin at 22:18, 09 May 2020.

Alon said:
I think of tactics as a choose-your-battlefield type of skill. So if your units do better when there are a lot of obstructions and choke points (like ranged units, esp. AoE ones like gogs and liches) then you want a battlefield with those; if your units do better in the open, like cavaliers with jousting bonus, then you want no obstructions. The two armies' tactics skills are compared and the terrain will favor the side with the stronger skill.


True.

What I liked very much at H7 was the penalties for ranged attacks, like the enemy is blocked = less dmg, etc., which was present in H4 too, but to a more serious degree, where you couldn't target a troop at all if blocked.

Tbh, H7 had the potential of a worthy successor, just like H5.
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MattII
MattII


Legendary Hero
posted May 09, 2020 11:11 PM

There's been an obstacle penalty in play at least since Heroes II.

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Rimgrabber
Rimgrabber


Famous Hero
It's a fixer-upper
posted May 10, 2020 12:33 AM

FirePaladin said:


Tbh, H7 had the potential of a worthy successor, just like H5.


This is a very unpopular opinion that could probably get you crucified but I 100% agree. H7 did some cool things. Arguably had the best tier system: 2/1/2/1/1 with 2 choices for champion. Not my ideal system, but closer to it than the linear 7 tiers, the 2/2/2/2 system of H4, or the 3/3/1 of H6. The skill wheel was definitely not as good as 5 because of how unbalanced and repetitive the classes were and how it was designed to not be random, but it was still better than 3's (now I'm gonna get crucified too ) which was great for its time but very bare-bones by today's standards. Overall I think that had they done something like a mix between H4 and H6's class systems where there were prestige classes like I've been talking about on one of these threads or another instead of just flooding the game with base classes (6 per faction, plus the Djinn Lord and Hell Knight for a total of 44!) and designed it based on H5's system with randomness in mind it would have been very cool.

According to an interview I read with Marzhin, 2 expansions were planned for after trial by fire, first adding Sanctuary and telling the story of how Godric and Cyrus helped the Naga repel an invasion by mad king Oleg (later revealed to be under a spell by Markal, who you maybe remember was a student of Sandro), followed by an Inferno expansion focusing on Ignatius which was supposed to fill all the gaps in between the stories like how Raelag joined Kha-Beleth and such. Also, Spideropolis was meant to have been defeated when Zenda died which is how Markal, a Void Necromancer, was able to take over Heresh, which means that Necro probably would have been de-spidered in the expansions. I know I'm one of like 4 serious Might and Magic fans that like Ashan, but having grown up with those characters I would have liked to see those stories finished very much. And H5 didn't become the classic it is today with its great skill system and alternative upgrades unit TotE so who knows if the management had cared enough maybe H7 would have had its class system fixed and had alternate units introduced. It also would have tied H3 for most playable factions at 9, and with the modding support it had, players could probably add in Conflux, Fortress, and Cove pretty easily. Alas, we'll never know now. I'd still like to talk to Marzhin about my book and see what we could do but I have other projects to finish first. A boy can dream though ahaha.
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http://heroescommunity.com/viewthread.php3?TID=46284&pagenumber=1
^ Part 2 of my proposal for Heroes 8 (Part 3 coming soon)

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MattII
MattII


Legendary Hero
posted May 10, 2020 09:43 AM

A skill system that inherently limits what skills a hero can learn is flawed.

Also, the H4 tier system was 2/1/1/1 in any given town.

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veteran_player
veteran_player


Adventuring Hero
posted May 10, 2020 05:03 PM
Edited by veteran_player at 17:05, 10 May 2020.

Ubisoft Corporation...

Despite some(many?) of the snide comments directed at them, I actually like and approve most of their performance overall, relative to their competitors. Two of their three Heroes games have been - at the very least - satisfactory - in my book. I don't want to discourage them from pursuing another title! It could be their best effort yet! The community's mentality on the subject shouldn't be so stuck on and obsessed with Heroes 3! Just learn to grow past that!

To cite CEO Nwabudike Morgan from Sid Meyer's Alpha Centauri:

"Human behavior is economic behavior. The particulars may vary, but competition for limited resources remains a constant. Need as well as greed have followed us to the stars, and the rewards of wealth still await those wise enough to recognize this deep thrumming of our common pulse."



Cheers!
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Alon
Alon


Known Hero
posted May 10, 2020 07:41 PM

Rimgrabber said:
This is a very unpopular opinion that could probably get you crucified but I 100% agree. H7 did some cool things.


Possibly stupid question: why, then, did H7 flop commercially and critically? That is, what did the game do wrong?
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FirePaladin
FirePaladin


Legendary Hero
Undorcover modder
posted May 10, 2020 07:45 PM
Edited by FirePaladin at 20:41, 10 May 2020.

Alon said:
Rimgrabber said:
This is a very unpopular opinion that could probably get you crucified but I 100% agree. H7 did some cool things.


Possibly stupid question: why, then, did H7 flop commercially and critically? That is, what did the game do wrong?


Graphics (I mean, there are low-poly models there with low texture, re-used stuff, etc.). Skills. Bugs (at first). Butterfly dragons. Lack of a fixed camera option similar to that in H3. Not H3 style creatures and line-ups (H5 had that and look how well it was received; they did have alt upgrades tho...). Even the flanking stuff being OP. Eldritch that, dragon-crap rare resource (there legit was a show that had that as a rare resource, but that's not for HoMM), etc. To me, even the lack of colors (it looks way better with Saturation Enhance mod). Erwin's spidery friends. Even the fact it was Ashan, a world which the people got tired of and butchered their favorite creatures (Titans being unliving constructs, butterfly Blackies, etc.). GREEN UNDEADS. Maybe, even not-hex? I mean, a hex system would have calmed people down. Barely working editor, I might even say. AWKWARD ANIMATIONS. For many, even Core-Elite-Champion. TOWN SCREENS AREN'T FULLY 3D, SHOWING US AN EPIC PANORAMA, and this in 2016. Units aren't that "catchy", in the sense that they are harder to distinguish compared to older HoMM games like H3, H4 or even H5 and other similar games like King's Bounty.

Edit: Totally on spot, Galaad! No offence, guys, tho.
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