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Heroes Community > Heroes 7+ Altar of Wishes > Thread: My ideas/vision for Homm8
Thread: My ideas/vision for Homm8 This thread is 4 pages long: 1 2 3 4 · «PREV / NEXT»
FirePaladin
FirePaladin


Legendary Hero
DoR Modder
posted March 20, 2020 01:59 PM

Cool. Only something like adding balance remains (which can be done only playing the game ). Which means you did a good job with the creatures. Also, were you inspired by the dragon turtles from Might and Magic?

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LizardWizard
LizardWizard

Tavern Dweller
posted March 20, 2020 02:13 PM

FirePaladin said:
Cool. Only something like adding balance remains (which can be done only playing the game ). Which means you did a good job with the creatures. Also, were you inspired by the dragon turtles from Might and Magic?


Thanks.
Yes, and best as I know the Dragon Turtle is a Chinese mythical creature, I think it's also in Warcraft 3 expansion.

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Alon
Alon


Known Hero
posted March 21, 2020 12:11 AM
Edited by Alon at 01:16, 21 Mar 2020.

Can you prototype this to test balance? For testing combat you don't even need to bother with setting up online play, just hotseat it if you have an offline friend you can play with.

EDIT: might be a good idea to put up a codebase somewhere.
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FirePaladin
FirePaladin


Legendary Hero
DoR Modder
posted March 21, 2020 12:38 AM

Alon said:
Can you prototype this to test balance? For testing combat you don't even need to bother with setting up online play, just hotseat it if you have an offline friend you can play with.


In H7, right?

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Alon
Alon


Known Hero
posted March 21, 2020 02:20 AM

I never played H7 so I don't know how powerful the editor is, but I was thinking just writing code for it in your favorite language.
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MaximumO
MaximumO

Tavern Dweller
posted March 24, 2020 05:35 AM

LizardWizard said:
Hey fellow heroes!

...


Oh god no..., oh god, please no...,oh god... reading through that was like having a nightmare.

One question to you - you are probably the type of a person that enjoyed GTA 5? Am I correct?

I've created an account on this website just to reply to you... because I care about my childhood game franchises. And so many have been ruined already... And when the developers don't know what they are doing it's half of the problem , but when random idiots pretending to be part of the community start throwing out completely idiotic suggestions ... It just kills me on the inside. We've already lost all of the other good game franchises... I won't let you hit the last nail in the coffin of my beloved HOMM franchise.

First off you say that you replayed through HOMM3 and that you like it... But then proceed to change all of the core mechanics of it. You are either a hypocrite or a completely delusional person. I can't even...

As a matter of fact I know how the true successor to the HOMM franchise should look like. But before we can even begin fathoming that... The developer needs to breath life into the DYING genre itself and an already dead HOMM franchise.
The only way to do that is to create a very similar to HOMM5 ( last decent HOMM game) HOMM successor.

Let me get this clear, we will not get the HOMM3 kind of art style game. There are just no resources for that on the market. Your best bet with the 2D sprites .Are the photoshop-esk kind of style game. Which don't look good for the true old school HOMM3 fans.
So the only option and a way forward is to establish a good 3D World of the HOMM universe. And later( with the same engine) experiment with the core mechanics of the game in HOMM9 .

In order to do that you have to start with what was already working in HOMM5 update graphics add a new story, improve skills. etc. Then and only then, after a polished game and a successful HOMM8 game we can begin talking of the new concepts and advancing the HOMM universe with HOMM9 and beyond. Which in my opinion core aspects of the game shouldn't be changed . But we can discuss that after we've had a successful HOMM8 game.
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FirePaladin
FirePaladin


Legendary Hero
DoR Modder
posted March 24, 2020 11:06 AM

MaximumO said:
LizardWizard said:
Hey fellow heroes!

...


Oh god no..., oh god, please no...,oh god... reading through that was like having a nightmare.

One question to you - you are probably the type of a person that enjoyed GTA 5? Am I correct?

I've created an account on this website just to reply to you... because I care about my childhood game franchises. And so many have been ruined already... And when the developers don't know what they are doing it's half of the problem , but when random idiots pretending to be part of the community start throwing out completely idiotic suggestions ... It just kills me on the inside. We've already lost all of the other good game franchises... I won't let you hit the last nail in the coffin of my beloved HOMM franchise.

First off you say that you replayed through HOMM3 and that you like it... But then proceed to change all of the core mechanics of it. You are either a hypocrite or a completely delusional person. I can't even...

As a matter of fact I know how the true successor to the HOMM franchise should look like. But before we can even begin fathoming that... The developer needs to breath life into the DYING genre itself and an already dead HOMM franchise.
The only way to do that is to create a very similar to HOMM5 ( last decent HOMM game) HOMM successor.

Let me get this clear, we will not get the HOMM3 kind of art style game. There are just no resources for that on the market. Your best bet with the 2D sprites .Are the photoshop-esk kind of style game. Which don't look good for the true old school HOMM3 fans.
So the only option and a way forward is to establish a good 3D World of the HOMM universe. And later( with the same engine) experiment with the core mechanics of the game in HOMM9 .

In order to do that you have to start with what was already working in HOMM5 update graphics add a new story, improve skills. etc. Then and only then, after a polished game and a successful HOMM8 game we can begin talking of the new concepts and advancing the HOMM universe with HOMM9 and beyond. Which in my opinion core aspects of the game shouldn't be changed . But we can discuss that after we've had a successful HOMM8 game.


The Photoshop-ed sprites from HD edition really looked like crap. If we were still talking about 3D, what do you say about this? I think it's fitting:
https://www.reddit.com/r/Cinema4D/comments/f6gg33/another_heroes3_diorama_fan_art_leave_the_sound/
https://www.reddit.com/r/heroes3/comments/ezwf2i/my_one_another_heroes3_animated_fanart_leave_the/
https://www.reddit.com/r/Cinema4D/comments/eut7k1/my_tribute_to_heroes_of_might_and_magic3_keep/

Also, I doubt we'll ever get a HoMM8 from Ubisoft (like, really doubt it). Maybe we'll get one from JVC, since he said in an interview he wants the franchise, but that too is somewhat unlikely, even tho the man has millions by now.

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zydar
zydar


Adventuring Hero
posted March 24, 2020 12:02 PM

The Next HOMM game maybe mix betwen HOMM 4 and HOMM5
HOMM 4 the only 3D (pseudo) HOMM game with joyful adventure map, but something weird with  battle system, skill mechanic
and HOMM 5 the combat is ok, skill mechanic is enjoyable, but boring adventure map
Never play 6,7

The problem of HOMM3 sucessor is only one,
how we can transform succesfull 2d flat game system into 3d world
As long as fail to build satisfying 3d world system, we will never see sucessfull HOMM game

the easiest way is just back to flat 2d world again, just copy of all HOMM 3 system
because HOMM3 system is timeless

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FirePaladin
FirePaladin


Legendary Hero
DoR Modder
posted March 24, 2020 12:54 PM

zydar said:
The Next HOMM game maybe mix betwen HOMM 4 and HOMM5
HOMM 4 the only 3D (pseudo) HOMM game with joyful adventure map, but something weird with  battle system, skill mechanic
and HOMM 5 the combat is ok, skill mechanic is enjoyable, but boring adventure map
Never play 6,7

The problem of HOMM3 sucessor is only one,
how we can transform succesfull 2d flat game system into 3d world
As long as fail to build satisfying 3d world system, we will never see sucessfull HOMM game

the easiest way is just back to flat 2d world again, just copy of all HOMM 3 system
because HOMM3 system is timeless


The thing is, many fans agree that the style from my previous comment (the links) is totally fitting for a HoMM game in the style of H3. So if it's done like that (correctly), it should be good.

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MaximumO
MaximumO

Tavern Dweller
posted March 24, 2020 02:01 PM

FirePaladin said:
MaximumO said:
LizardWizard said:
Hey fellow heroes!

The Photoshop-ed sprites from HD edition really looked like crap. If we were still talking about 3D, what do you say about this? I think it's fitting:
[url=https://www.reddit.com/r/Cinema4D/comments/f6gg33/another_heroes3_diorama_fan_art_leave_the_sound/]https://www.reddit.com/r/Cinema4D/comments/f6gg33/another_heroes3_diorama_fan_art_leave_the_sound/[/url]
[url=https://www.reddit.com/r/heroes3/comments/ezwf2i/my_one_another_heroes3_animated_fanart_leave_the/]https://www.reddit.com/r/heroes3/comments/ezwf2i/my_one_another_heroes3_animated_fanart_leave_the/[/url]
[url=https://www.reddit.com/r/Cinema4D/comments/eut7k1/my_tribute_to_heroes_of_might_and_magic3_keep/]https://www.reddit.com/r/Cinema4D/comments/eut7k1/my_tribute_to_heroes_of_might_and_magic3_keep/[/url]

Also, I doubt we'll ever get a HoMM8 from Ubisoft (like, really doubt it). Maybe we'll get one from JVC, since he said in an interview he wants the franchise, but that too is somewhat unlikely, even tho the man has millions by now.


It is a matter of taste of course. To me those gifs look exactly like remastered HOMM3 HD sprites but with better / smoother animations.
Personally I think it looks better than the original sprites... I like them... They do look different though, more "candied" or waxed so to say...Instead of rough / course surfaces you get that shiny glass like polished look on everything. Though I've never had it installed (only watched online reviews). And probably never will, since it's missing alot of content , expansions ,and has compatibility issues etc etc.
I have the original HOMM3 game from GOG with HD patch . That doesn't have cut content and is compatible with HOTA and other expansions. So that's the only one I've been and will be using. And it looks fine to me.

Yes,I completely agree... chances of us getting a new HOMM game are very slim. We can only pray and hope. At this point I am more of a realist and thinking that we will never get it and perhaps need to organize it and develop it ourselves... perhaps through crowdfunding.

Not sure about JVC. I feel like it's more just words than anything...

Either way... the best developer for the game would be any Slavic based country that has a huge HOMM fan base. Perhaps Russian Nival (HOMM5 devs) or (one can only hope) Polish CD Project Red. That way we will know that the game will be good ... But at this point it is just wishful thinking.

My main point from my reply was that whatever the game devs decide to do in terms of art style choices. I will accept it.(Though 3D look is more feasible for the future of the franchise). Just don't change any of the core HOMM mechanics.(Like the OP suggested).  First we need to make a polished HOMM to the core game that every fan of the series will be able to recommend to their friends and colleges. With that established base we can then think of mechanically new ideas for the HOMM series...

Anyway I feel like I'm just repeating myself at this point and going in circles. Pretty sure you got my point anyway...

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FirePaladin
FirePaladin


Legendary Hero
DoR Modder
posted March 24, 2020 02:25 PM
Edited by FirePaladin at 14:27, 24 Mar 2020.

Yeah, we need a good polished one first. Btw, HD from Ubi really IS crap. I honestly expected way more, but the animations made by Ubi... Damn, the Magi are totally schizophrenic there, and so are other units too (Air Elementals have beards).

And I have my doubts about what JVC said... I mean, it's something like 50%/50% that he really wants to buy rights back.

Edit: I can also confirm that those animations sent by me (they're 3D, made in Cinema4D) are nothing like the Ubi HD version.

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MaximumO
MaximumO

Tavern Dweller
posted March 24, 2020 02:47 PM

FirePaladin said:
zydar said:
The Next HOMM game maybe mix betwen HOMM 4 and HOMM5
HOMM 4 the only 3D (pseudo) HOMM game with joyful adventure map, but something weird with  battle system, skill mechanic
and HOMM 5 the combat is ok, skill mechanic is enjoyable, but boring adventure map
Never play 6,7

The problem of HOMM3 sucessor is only one,
how we can transform succesfull 2d flat game system into 3d world
As long as fail to build satisfying 3d world system, we will never see sucessfull HOMM game

the easiest way is just back to flat 2d world again, just copy of all HOMM 3 system
because HOMM3 system is timeless


The thing is, many fans agree that the style from my previous comment (the links) is totally fitting for a HoMM game in the style of H3. So if it's done like that (correctly), it should be good.


What the hell? What the heck is wrong with you guys?

First of all let me start off by saying that yes I would LOVE a HOMM game looking like this.

HOWEVER this gif was just a rendered 3D art done in Cinema4D NOT IN A GAME ENGINE. IT IS NOT POSSIBLE FOR A GAME TO LOOK LIKE THAT IN REAL TIME IN GAME ENGINE AT THE MOMENT.

Just because you see a pretty game trailer doesn't mean that the graphics and physics etc will be the same in the actual game. Watch the latest Diablo 4 trailer. You are not that stupid are you? It is just mock up of the game. That does not represent the actual gameplay because IT IS NOT POSSIBLE TO RENDER IT IN REAL TIME.

And for the record he did use HOMM 3 HOTA sprites for them. Which I think uses HD remastered models though not entirely sure.

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FirePaladin
FirePaladin


Legendary Hero
DoR Modder
posted March 24, 2020 02:49 PM
Edited by FirePaladin at 14:51, 24 Mar 2020.

MaximumO said:
FirePaladin said:
zydar said:
The Next HOMM game maybe mix betwen HOMM 4 and HOMM5
HOMM 4 the only 3D (pseudo) HOMM game with joyful adventure map, but something weird with  battle system, skill mechanic
and HOMM 5 the combat is ok, skill mechanic is enjoyable, but boring adventure map
Never play 6,7

The problem of HOMM3 sucessor is only one,
how we can transform succesfull 2d flat game system into 3d world
As long as fail to build satisfying 3d world system, we will never see sucessfull HOMM game

the easiest way is just back to flat 2d world again, just copy of all HOMM 3 system
because HOMM3 system is timeless


The thing is, many fans agree that the style from my previous comment (the links) is totally fitting for a HoMM game in the style of H3. So if it's done like that (correctly), it should be good.


What the hell? What the heck is wrong with you guys?

First of all let me start off by saying that yes I would LOVE a HOMM game looking like this.

HOWEVER this gif was just a rendered 3D art done in Cinema4D NOT IN A GAME ENGINE. IT IS NOT POSSIBLE FOR A GAME TO LOOK LIKE THAT IN REAL TIME IN GAME ENGINE AT THE MOMENT.

Just because you see a pretty game trailer doesn't mean that the graphics and physics etc will be the same in the actual game. Watch the latest Diablo 4 trailer. You are not that stupid are you? It is just mock up of the game. That does not represent the actual gameplay because IT IS NOT POSSIBLE TO RENDER IT IN REAL TIME.

And for the record he did use HOMM 3 HOTA sprites for them. Which I think uses HD remastered models though not entirely sure.


He used HotA 3D model (HotA creatures are made the same way the original ones were: by 3D modeling). And the rendering can look like that, but it needs a heck of a lot of tweaking. I mean, it's not impossible, but it's not easy either.

Also, we're not speaking about a super realistic game, but a cartoonish one, which makes real-time rendering easier.

Edit: Yeah, I've seen D4 trailer.

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MaximumO
MaximumO

Tavern Dweller
posted March 24, 2020 03:44 PM

FirePaladin said:

He used HotA 3D model (HotA creatures are made the same way the original ones were: [url=http://h3.heroes.net.pl/galeria/modele-3d]by 3D modeling[/url]). And the rendering can look like that, but it needs a heck of a lot of tweaking. I mean, it's not impossible, but it's not easy either.

Also, we're not speaking about a super realistic game, but a cartoonish one, which makes real-time rendering easier.

Edit: Yeah, I've seen D4 trailer.


You are missing the point.

It does not matter whether you have a cartoonish style or not.
The amount of ray tracing, physics and particle effects done in those diarams is not possible to render on modern hardware in real time. And the amount of Vram it would be eating is also beyond of what we have in an average system today.

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FirePaladin
FirePaladin


Legendary Hero
DoR Modder
posted March 24, 2020 03:47 PM

MaximumO said:
FirePaladin said:

He used HotA 3D model (HotA creatures are made the same way the original ones were: by 3D modeling). And the rendering can look like that, but it needs a heck of a lot of tweaking. I mean, it's not impossible, but it's not easy either.

Also, we're not speaking about a super realistic game, but a cartoonish one, which makes real-time rendering easier.

Edit: Yeah, I've seen D4 trailer.


You are missing the point.

It does not matter whether you have a cartoonish style or not.
The amount of ray tracing, physics and particle effects done in those diarams is not possible to render on modern hardware in real time. And the amount of Vram it would be eating is also beyond of what we have in an average system today.


Ok, but you can still create something similar. And the 3D models can still be done in that style. And let's be honest, it'd be one of the best options on how to make a 3D HoMM3. It won't look exactly like the render, but it would still look awesome nonetheless.

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MaximumO
MaximumO

Tavern Dweller
posted March 24, 2020 04:00 PM

FirePaladin said:

Ok, but you can still create something similar. And the 3D models can still be done in that style. And let's be honest, it'd be one of the best options on how to make a 3D HoMM3. It won't look exactly like the render, but it would still look awesome nonetheless.


Dude for the love of god please stop day dreaming.

I too would like to imagine that wherever I go there's a magic tooth fairy sprinkling rose pedals under my feet... That I can ask out any random girl on the street and she will willingly go out with me... "Life is not all sunshine and rainbows". Stop bloody dreaming mate .ffs

Yes, of course you can create something similar. The question is how similar and will it have the same wonderful effect as those diarams? It will not, full stop. IT WILL NOT. FULL STOP.

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FirePaladin
FirePaladin


Legendary Hero
DoR Modder
posted March 24, 2020 04:12 PM
Edited by FirePaladin at 16:13, 24 Mar 2020.

MaximumO said:
FirePaladin said:

Ok, but you can still create something similar. And the 3D models can still be done in that style. And let's be honest, it'd be one of the best options on how to make a 3D HoMM3. It won't look exactly like the render, but it would still look awesome nonetheless.


Dude for the love of god please stop day dreaming.

I too would like to imagine that wherever I go there's a magic tooth fairy sprinkling rose pedals under my feet... That I can ask out any random girl on the street and she will willingly go out with me... "Life is not all sunshine and rainbows". Stop bloody dreaming mate .ffs

Yes, of course you can create something similar. The question is how similar and will it have the same wonderful effect as those diarams? It will not, full stop. IT WILL NOT. FULL STOP.


Duh, then what? Request the same crap like H7 and that's it, because nobody will make the game? Yeah, I already know HoMM8 will probably never exist, so this is in fact a daydreaming thread, to be honest. It's possible for the game to be made pretty similar to that (hey, you want it similar to that, or similar to H7 or another crappy look? I mean, yeah, dioram is cool, I know it wouldn't look like that, but the 3D models and the textures can, and that's a major part of it), but nobody will make it anyway. That's the thing. Right now, this thread is just a mine of ideas and dreams about a brighter future for the series (which we don't even know if they will come true after all).

And even so, it can still look awesome in its own right (the "new game render" look).

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LizardWizard
LizardWizard

Tavern Dweller
posted March 25, 2020 09:22 AM
Edited by LizardWizard at 09:47, 25 Mar 2020.

FirePaladin, Alon

I am happy that you actually thinking about balancing issues.
I don't know if it's still available, but there is a tool called "Damage Calculator", which I used before to see how my creature ideas fit. It was made for Homm3 so it has it's limits, if I remember correctly I was not able to input new creature specialties, but for beginning it would be good.

zydar

Quote:
The Next HOMM game maybe mix betwen HOMM 4 and HOMM5
HOMM 4 the only 3D (pseudo) HOMM game with joyful adventure map, but something weird with  battle system, skill mechanic
and HOMM 5 the combat is ok, skill mechanic is enjoyable, but boring adventure map
Never play 6,7

The problem of HOMM3 sucessor is only one,
how we can transform succesfull 2d flat game system into 3d world
As long as fail to build satisfying 3d world system, we will never see sucessfull HOMM game

the easiest way is just back to flat 2d world again, just copy of all HOMM 3 system
because HOMM3 system is timeless


Yes, I totally agree! But I suppose that hardcore fans would try out regardless of whether it's 3d or 2d.
Personally, I hate the thing that in nowadays' gaming everything is about having uber-cool graphics, maybe that's why a lot of games feel to me totally "soulless"...

MaximumO

Omg... Really, a random post on the internet by a stranger is "ruining your childhood"? Isn't it a bit... overly dramatic?
I have already read myself at least hundreds of ideas on many forums, many of them I didn't like either. But, I'm well aware that those are (like mine) not official concepts by developers, just "wishes" and "daydreaming" of fans.
If you can't get this, that's your problem. I am open to any constructive critisicm, but if you won't change your attitude and hostile tone, then better don't reply.
(Also, it's none of your business anyway, but if you'd read more carefully our discussion in this thread you could already figure out by yourself that I'm not a "gta guy". But if I were, then what?)

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FirePaladin
FirePaladin


Legendary Hero
DoR Modder
posted March 25, 2020 11:27 AM
Edited by FirePaladin at 11:35, 25 Mar 2020.

I agree with you man. It's nice to dream about your favorite games

About balance etc.: you can also use either VCMI or the easily modable H7 to create your units and balance your concept. Who knows, even if your concept never becomes the next H8, maybe it will become a very nice mod for another HoMM game.

Also, can you give me a link to damage calculator? I found one a while ago, but it wasn't working.

Edit: What, you don't like Big Smoke?

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Alon
Alon


Known Hero
posted March 25, 2020 08:28 PM

FirePaladin said:
Also, can you give me a link to damage calculator? I found one a while ago, but it wasn't working.


If you want, I can write it in Python 3 and send it to you with instructions. But please bear in mind, I'm a terrible coder and the code won't be elegant.

If you don't have the attack and defense rating issue, just damage and HP, then the power of a single unit is equal to the square root of (damage times HP); this is basically Lanchester's law, using the modern warfare formula because unit stacks in Heroes mean that there's perfect focus-fire (the premodern formula works for an RTS in which you don't focus-fire, like if you play Warcraft and do not micro your units). There are separate quadratic formulas for the first strike advantage, which is conceptually bigger for units with a higher ratio of damage to HP (it's approximately a boost equal to damage/2*HP if there's no enemy retaliation on either side).

The hard part is modeling unit combos and micro. Stuff like protecting archers with defensive melee units, using AOE to break such formations, fighting in choke points if you have range and in the open if you don't, maybe attack-and-retreat special abilities for cavalry charges, etc.
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