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| Thread: The Heroes Formula |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 · NEXT» |
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sirironfist
Known Hero
King of the ogres
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posted April 11, 2020 10:52 AM |
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The Heroes Formula
What are your criteria for a good Heroes game? When are you having a lot of fun with these games and what makes the game so addictive and timeless? What is the essence of it?
Why do you like some of the Heroes games more than others?
Recently I played some Heroes 1 for the first time and I had quite a bit of fun with it – more than I anticipated. It was these moments where I was getting a sense of progress, where my army looked a little tough for the first time and my hero had some noticeable stats. It’s winning more and more fights for better rewards. This basic concept of fun applies to all the following games.
Heroes 2 is roughly the same game, only that it is better in just about every aspect. It has all the same units and two additional towns. It has secondary skills, more spells and the whole game concept is better developed. The graphics and music are unique and create a very magical atmosphere.
Heroes 3 is another upgrade to the concept in most aspects. Heroes now have their own specialties, which adds to the roleplaying aspect of the game. There are more different factions with more units. The map editor is easy to handle and so we have an almost endless supply of custom maps. All this leads to an incredible degree of replayability. You can play 10 very different maps with a different faction and your focus on different skills each time. If you play multiplayer you also benefit greatly from the random map editor.
What happened then, I think, is that Heroes 4 tried to developed the game further. The company went bankrupt, the game wasn’t finished properly and is now often seen as a bad game. I think this is a very important moment in Heroes history, because this is where the ever returning question pops up: Is Heroes 3 what every Heroes game should be like?
I believe this is the wrong conclusion to be taken. Whilst I love Heroes 3, I don’t think it was a good idea for Heroes 5 and 7 to try and recreate what once worked. I think Heroes 4 went the right way and with more adjustment it could have been a very great game. Ubisoft tried changing things in Heroes 6, but they went down a much worse path than H4.
At the same time Heroes 6 was my favorite one of the Ubisoft games. Mostly because of new units that weren’t in the games before and because I didn’t like the visual style that H5 had.
If I was in the position to make a Heroes game I would hire some really good AI people. There is nothing that destroyed the later games more than the stupidity of the AI. This makes me realise how important a sense of challenge is in these games. Setting a challenge and overcoming the seemingly impossible task of beating it is a great feeling as well.
The points I figured out so far:
1. Constant sense of progress: Being rewarded for what you achieve and seeing your progress is probably an essential part of every game that ever existed. This is the reason why we are getting addicted in the first place. ^^
2. Diversity in development of your Heroes, diversity in factions, units and maps: Provides the game with more replayability, because it makes every time you play it rather different.
3. Sense of challenge: A game that is easy to learn but hard to master. The steeper the curve, the better, as long as you can always adjust the difficulty to your individual needs. This challenge must exist in singeplayer too, so a decent AI is key.
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FirePaladin
Legendary Hero
DoR Modder
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posted April 11, 2020 11:22 AM |
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To be honest, in HoMM7 I feel no kind of progress, in H6 I feel it, but not that much, in H5 I feel it quite well, in H4 there is progress, but well... H4, and in the first HoMMs the progress is felt the most.
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted April 11, 2020 02:55 PM |
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Edited by Galaad at 14:56, 11 Apr 2020.
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sirironfist said:
Whilst I love Heroes 3, I don’t think it was a good idea for Heroes 5 and 7 to try and recreate what once worked.
H3 and H5 are the most successful games in the franchise, and they both recreated what once worked -in terms of game mechanics (and I insist on that point) H3 was an upgrade to H2, and H5 was one to H3. They took a solid basis, didn't fix what wasn't broken (3D aside, I also insist on that point), and expanded on it.
H7 did not try to recreate what once worked, as it was basically H6 2.0 (contrary to what was advertised).
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FirePaladin
Legendary Hero
DoR Modder
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posted April 11, 2020 03:35 PM |
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Galaad said:
sirironfist said:
Whilst I love Heroes 3, I don’t think it was a good idea for Heroes 5 and 7 to try and recreate what once worked.
H3 and H5 are the most successful games in the franchise, and they both recreated what once worked -in terms of game mechanics (and I insist on that point) H3 was an upgrade to H2, and H5 was one to H3. They took a solid basis, didn't fix what wasn't broken (3D aside, I also insist on that point), and expanded on it.
H7 did not try to recreate what once worked, as it was basically H6 2.0 (contrary to what was advertised).
I agree. At least H6 had its own feeling, unlike H7 which feels empty.
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Baronus
Legendary Hero
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posted April 11, 2020 04:06 PM |
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Heroes formula.
A lot of unique heroes.
A lot of unique units.
A lot of unique spells.
A lot of unique towns.
Good offensive AI.
Wonderfull music.
Beuty graphic.
Random generation.
Good editor.
Easy to moddnig.
etc.
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Roman2211
Adventuring Hero
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posted April 11, 2020 08:07 PM |
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Baronus said:
etc.
A lot of many RPG scripts? A lot of combination artifacts?
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Rimgrabber
Promising
Famous Hero
Voice in Gelu's Head
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posted April 11, 2020 08:41 PM |
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Heroes 5 I think is easily the best game in the series, at least gameplay-wise, and I don't think many people would disagree with me on that front. It wasn't perfect of course, but it by far had the best hero specialties and skill system, which in my opinion is one of the most crucial things separating it from H6 in terms of quality, which massively rolled back progress on both of those things in favor of a watered-down more simplified skill system. Heroes 7 was *slightly* better than 6 in that regard, but only because the community fought so hard for it. Ubisoft seemed hell-bent on keeping it watered down for some reason.
I think heroes 5.5 is the next natural step for the skill system; more logical and balanced progression and a variety of classes that are unique enough to each have their own playstyles without having so many that many of them feel exactly the same, as in H7. Further improving on this system I think would be giving each class their own skill tree, or at least their own varients of a faction-unique skill tree, although that's just my opinion personally.
Another thing that H5 did better than any other game in the series was the presence of alternative upgrades for every creature. Horribly unbalanced at times, yes (Blood Furies vs Sisters, Crossbowmen vs Marksmen, Arcane Archers vs Master Hunters etc.) but many more added tactical variety to each faction and opened up many more possibilities.
In that same vein, something that H4 (and H7 to a much lesser extent) did very well was having alternate units for each faction, where you weren't able to use your entire lineup, rather you had to figure out which units were best for your situation and synergized the best with each other. I think that concept, along with alternate units, interesting hero specializations, and a skill system similar to that of H5.5 would make my ideal heroes game. That, and at least 10 factions in the final game. H3 had 9 factions 20 years ago there's no reason a modern Heroes game can't have as many or more.
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted April 11, 2020 08:46 PM |
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FirePaladin said:
At least H6 had its own feeling, unlike H7 which feels empty.
H6 had its own feeling but if one game in the series has empty maps it's that one... I genuinely tried to enjoy H6 but the general oversimplification in the mechanics simply bored me to death.
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FirePaladin
Legendary Hero
DoR Modder
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posted April 11, 2020 08:47 PM |
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Rimgrabber said:
Heroes 5 I think is easily the best game in the series, at least gameplay-wise, and I don't think many people would disagree with me on that front. It wasn't perfect of course, but it by far had the best hero specialties and skill system, which in my opinion is one of the most crucial things separating it from H6 in terms of quality, which massively rolled back progress on both of those things in favor of a watered-down more simplified skill system. Heroes 7 was *slightly* better than 6 in that regard, but only because the community fought so hard for it. Ubisoft seemed hell-bent on keeping it watered down for some reason.
I think heroes 5.5 is the next natural step for the skill system; more logical and balanced progression and a variety of classes that are unique enough to each have their own playstyles without having so many that many of them feel exactly the same, as in H7. Further improving on this system I think would be giving each class their own skill tree, or at least their own varients of a faction-unique skill tree, although that's just my opinion personally.
Another thing that H5 did better than any other game in the series was the presence of alternative upgrades for every creature. Horribly unbalanced at times, yes (Blood Furies vs Sisters, Crossbowmen vs Marksmen, Arcane Archers vs Master Hunters etc.) but many more added tactical variety to each faction and opened up many more possibilities.
In that same vein, something that H4 (and H7 to a much lesser extent) did very well was having alternate units for each faction, where you weren't able to use your entire lineup, rather you had to figure out which units were best for your situation and synergized the best with each other. I think that concept, along with alternate units, interesting hero specializations, and a skill system similar to that of H5.5 would make my ideal heroes game. That, and at least 10 factions in the final game. H3 had 9 factions 20 years ago there's no reason a modern Heroes game can't have as many or more.
I totally agree. Good skills and skill system, together with well-thought alternative upgrades and/or creatures and many factions, which is the main reason I don't like H6 that much (lack of factions).
Galaad said:
FirePaladin said:
At least H6 had its own feeling, unlike H7 which feels empty.
H6 had its own feeling but if one game in the series has empty maps it's that one... I genuinely tried to enjoy H6 but the general oversimplification in the mechanics simply bored me to death.
I agree H6 was quite simple (except for that crazy skill tree, lol), but H7 really feels empty, just like a dead corpse to me. Grey-ed colors (I had to download a saturation mod), low-poly together with medium+ poly models, the UI was just uninspiring, and many more stuff, as much as I wanted to see H7 as something good. Let's not forget, battle-breaking bugs, somewhat clumsy controls...
Troops had absolutely zero personality, animation is just totally awkward (trying to not curse here), Solmyr and other heroes were imba...
Edit: By empty I didn't necessarily mean empty landscapes, even tho H6 has one of the best landscape objects.
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted April 11, 2020 08:57 PM |
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FirePaladin said:
I agree H6 was quite simple (except for that crazy skill tree, lol)
I think the OP sums it up quite well, when he says, the original Heroes formula is "easy to learn but hard to master". When you mention H6 skill tree it's like the opposite, hard to learn but easy to master. I also hated that it was not random, I believe the randomness takes a huge part in the addiction of the former games.
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FirePaladin
Legendary Hero
DoR Modder
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posted April 11, 2020 09:05 PM |
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Galaad said:
FirePaladin said:
I agree H6 was quite simple (except for that crazy skill tree, lol)
I think the OP sums it up quite well, when he says, the original Heroes formula is "easy to learn but hard to master". When you mention H6 skill tree it's like the opposite, hard to learn but easy to master. I also hated that it was not random, I believe the randomness takes a huge part in the addiction of the former games.
True. Randomness of skills is a part of HoMM. Even H7 chose the classic "skill-points skill tree", which doesn't fit a HoMM game. Also, spells. No MG in H6, only skill-spells, which is truly a let-down. Resurrection in H6 and H7 was basically achieved through Cure, with an enhanced version called Resurrection (I might be wrong with H7, since I didn't play it that much). This just makes getting the true Resurrection spell somewhat pointless.
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Rimgrabber
Promising
Famous Hero
Voice in Gelu's Head
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posted April 11, 2020 10:41 PM |
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I actually don't mind a weaker version of resurrection as long as it isn't as powerful as in H6. iirc H7 it was okay in.
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Alon
Known Hero
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posted April 12, 2020 01:52 AM |
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Speaking as an H3 player, I think what made the game work was,
- Really interesting micro in combat. The term "micro" comes from the RTS world, and TBS micro can't use standard RTS techniques like target-firing, stutter-stepping, and splitting, so instead Heroes has micro techniques that work within a turn-based system, designed around using the correct spells and knowing how to use unit special abilities.
- Balancing 8-9 different factions. Castle was imba in the original release but even then there were raging debates about archangel vs. black dragon vs. titan, and with AB's cost nerf it's all pretty even.
- RPG-strategy integration. By themselves, the RPG elements are kind of boring. But together with the strategy they work really well - choosing the right skills and artifacts based on what the RNG makes available and what army I'm trying to build is interesting.
Finally, a half-grade:
- The campaign story isn't amazing (Starcraft 1 + BW is better and so is Alpha Centauri), mainly because it's so castle-centric. But as a castle story it's pretty interesting, nothing like the kitsch of The Battle for Wesnoth or its better and more commercial version Wargroove.
(What I do not think works: chiefly, the game really does not work in multiplayer because the PvE and PvP combat bubbles force me to sit at my computer and twiddle my thumbs during my opponent's turn waiting to see if they initiate combat against me. But also the macro and resource management systems are shallow throughout.)
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sirironfist
Known Hero
King of the ogres
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posted April 14, 2020 04:39 PM |
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The skill wheel in H6 really wasn't a good idea. I always ended up with the same skills, because why in the world would anyone not take logistics? So randomness seems to be another important element.
Tbh I have been quite ignorant towards H5, I should give it another try and I will try to like the graphics this time. 
Town screens are another important thing. It's still a shame how all towns look the same in H4. Not to speak of H6 and 7. H5 might be the best game in that regard actually.
How much do we know about the H5 that was planned by NWC? I remember I saw some picutres at some point. Do we know what the ideas were for that game? Because judging from H4, I think NWC still had a pretty good vision about further developing Heroes.
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted April 14, 2020 06:48 PM |
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sirironfist said:
Tbh I have been quite ignorant towards H5, I should give it another try and I will try to like the graphics this time.
Apply Xuxo's textures, they help a lot in that regard. 
You also want Quantomas AI ofc.
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How much do we know about the H5 that was planned by NWC? I remember I saw some picutres at some point. Do we know what the ideas were for that game? Because judging from H4, I think NWC still had a pretty good vision about further developing Heroes.
Yes, I believe if NWC had made H5, it would have been fantastic.
https://mightandmagic.fandom.com/wiki/Heroes_of_Might_and_Magic_V_%28New_World_Computing%29
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FirePaladin
Legendary Hero
DoR Modder
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posted April 14, 2020 06:58 PM |
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@Galaad
But H5 from Nival (not entirely from Ubi) is still a great game in itself (putting away the plot and lore), even if not in the same universe.
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monere
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
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posted April 14, 2020 07:01 PM |
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Edited by monere at 19:21, 14 Apr 2020.
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What are your criteria for a good Heroes game?
1) Mythology.... For me it all started with seeing mythological creatures for the first time in a game, and so well designed that they instantly caught on and stuck with me.
Creatures alone, however, are not enough to keep me playing this game even today. Sure, they play a huge part in the grand schemes of things, but creatures that are well designed (like the Arch Devils, Efreet Sultans, Dread Knights, Magic Elements, Naga Queens, Titans, Mighty Gorgons, Wyvern Monarchs, Grand Elves, or Minotaur Kings are... all these creatures alone make me wanna play the game all the time, because I like their colours, I like their gestures, their abilities, their... well, I like everything about them). There have probably been other games before H3 that have dealt with mythological creatures, but H3 is the first one that I've played back in 1999, and given that I've always had a thing for strategy games and for mythological creatures, and that H3 has managed to combine both these aspects and also not put pressure on me (the fact that it's a TBS game has inclined the balance for me in favor of H3 over other big titles like AoE, or Starcraft, which have been huge at that time).
2) Design... As mentioned above, H3 has got an amazing creature (and adventure map, too, spells, too) design overall. All the creatures - well, all the ones that I like anyway, which are plenty of - are so incredibly unique and so pleasing visually that sometimes I just play Necropolis just to watch the Dread Knights move or the double blow ability trigger. And I'm not exaggerating, everyone on this forum that knows me knows that I'm a passionate hater of Necropolis which I consider a cheat town because of the Necromancy skill which literally overshadows and overwhelms all other skills in the game (less diplomacy, obviously) and even so, despite of me hating on Necro with passion, sometimes I play Tamika just for the sake of the DKs, which are amazingly strong and well designed.
3) Complexity and diversity... When you introduce many variables in a strategy game you are bound to make a great game... IF you manage to mix all the variables in such a way that each one of them matters most of the time. H3 has many heroes with many specialties, has many spells with many unique mechanisms, has many artifacts that are well-designed (Armor of the Damned, Helm of Heavenly Enlightenment, Celestial Necklace, Lion's Shield, Golden Bow, Elixir of Life, Boots of Speed... all of these arties look good in my opinion, and their usefulness is undeniable). On top of all these elements you also have many creatures (each one with their own upgrade), and many factions, many adventure map elements that are actually good (I have found myself many times visiting "useless objects" like those that give +1 movement, or +1 morale. Even though I don't usually care about morale in my H3 gameplays I often visit those minor map objects that because they give a bonus that sometimes proves useful)
4) Replayability... a game can be amazing (Subnautica) but have little or no replayability, despite of its greatness. H3 has managed to keep this important element that makes games timeless.
5) Atmosphere... The background music is one of the most important atmospheric elements in my opinion. We all know that H4 is a non-finished project, and as such it has many broken things. And yet, despite of this, I have purchased the game on Gog several years ago and I play it occasionally because of the few elements that I like about it, and one of those elements is the music. There are some songs in that game that are stuck in my brain and I return to the game from time to time because of those songs (obviously because of other elements that I like, as well, because otherwise I could just listen to those songs on youtube, but it doesn't feel the same if you don't play the game so you can enjoy all other good things, as well)
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When are you having a lot of fun with these games
1) When they have things that I like (I like mythological creatures, and H3 has plenty of them, so this point is conquered)
2) When they give freedom in creating my own world, in which I can immerse and forget about everything from the real world. And H3 does this thing great, because the creatures, the crystal clear adventure map (devoid of visually striking or blurry objects that are hard to spot, or are too colourful), the many variables in the game which - for an analytical person like myself - can mean a lot of time wasted spent analyzing the hell out of everything... also the great atmospheric sounds (music and creatures' sounds, including the heroes' horse movement sounds)... all these elements contribute to my immersion into the game and keep me occupied for hours years xD
3) When the outcome of a battle / game is the direct result of my actions instead of the luck. Sure, a bit of luck and randomizing is good, even in strategy games, because it eliminates the chess-like feeling, and as such, it contributes to the enjoyable experience of the game. The luck part of it, however, needs to be carefully designed and implemented in order to obtain the desired effect (strategy game that is fun)
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what makes the game so addictive and timeless
All the elements I've explained above make the game both addictive and timeless. I don't think there's other secret to it than this.
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What is the essence of it?
Essence? Hmm... maybe the fact that it's a mythological game? I mean, there must be other TBS games out there (and I may have played some of them in the past, but I don't remember at the moment), but the reason why I've stuck with H3 is, first and foremost, because it's been the game to introduce me to the world of mythological creatures (before discovering H3 I have heard many times about unicorns, minotaurs, dragons, etc. but I always wondered what those things looked like as I've never seen one of them before. And when I have played H3 for the first time and saw all these creatures in one place, each one with its own unique design and abilities, needless to say that I've got amazed, and forever hooked).
So, the fact that it's a mythological game weights more than anything for me. Not sure if this is the essence of the game, but it's the essence in what concerns me
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FirePaladin
Legendary Hero
DoR Modder
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posted April 14, 2020 07:04 PM |
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@Monere
I totally agree with you, only difference is that I knew about mythological creatures very well before playing H3 (and also that I usually don't write essays  ). H3 is amazing because it's a complete game, without lacks. H5 isn't near that, even if it's enjoyable and ranking right before H3 in terms of popularity.
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Alon
Known Hero
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posted April 14, 2020 07:29 PM |
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I agree that H3 is very replayable, but I have to ask - is this just because there are many factions each of which plays differently from the others, or is there more to it?
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monere
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
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posted April 14, 2020 07:31 PM |
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FirePaladin said:
@Monere
I totally agree with you, only difference is that I knew about mythological creatures very well before playing H3 (and also that I usually don't write essays ). H3 is amazing because it's a complete game, without lacks. H5 isn't near that, even if it's enjoyable and ranking right before H3 in terms of popularity.
probably you've known about them because you have played the other 2 games in the series before H3, but I have dived right into H3 (and I've also never heard of King's Bounty, or M&M series before) so this has put the mark on my impression of the game. Also, I don't write essays, either (I genuinely hate them), but this wasn't one. It was just a few opinions about a game that I like
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