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Heroes Community > Heroes 5 - Temple of Ashan > Thread: Lore questions
Thread: Lore questions
Lord_Immortal
Lord_Immortal


Famous Hero
DoR Dev Team
posted April 30, 2020 07:27 PM

Lore questions

Starting the H5 campaign all over again after this many years also after playing missions (though never finishing) from HoF, TotE and Heroes VI leaves me with many questions.

In H5 it is implied that Raleag brought the Soulscar clan in the service of the Demons. However in Shades of Darkness he is against Sylsai and the cooperation with the demons since the start. How did he became Kha-Beleth's right hand when he was against the demons from the start? If Raelag could use the heart of the Griffin then it means he was not a demon from the start (of H5). Yet (gameplay wise) he has all the powers of a Demon Lord and needs as well to be "cleansed" by Tieru. Also, what power did Agrael use to kill Nicolai and if such power exists in the Ashan universe, why no one else has used it so far?

And one more thing: if the Necromancers are not supposed to be "evil" in the Ashan universe, why did not "good" and powerful necromancers like Arantir intervene when Markal destroyed the Griffin Empire? Didn't Markal's move actually make Isabel vulnerable when she should have been as safe as possible from Kha-Beleth?

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FirePaladin
FirePaladin


Legendary Hero
DoR Modder
posted April 30, 2020 07:31 PM

Because Ashan lore is a mess, especially after two teams (Nival and Blackhole Entertainment) ended up creating H5 and then H6 individually.
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"Goblins use pistols because a shotgun recoil would kick them off the ground flying."
The Reckoning.... it's drawing near....

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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
posted May 01, 2020 07:43 AM

It's called making sheet up as you go along.
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb

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Rimgrabber
Rimgrabber


Promising
Famous Hero
Voice in Gelu's Head
posted May 01, 2020 03:19 PM

Because they made a silly decision to tell the last parts of the story first so when they changed and reconned a bunch of stuff it all stopped making sense. I've been trying to write a novelization of the Ashan universe, cleaning it up and making it a bit less cliche in the process, but I'm working on 2 other projects now so chances are its gonna be a while before I make any progress. I'd like to be able to talk with Julien Pirou about what the plans for tying all these things together were because it sounds like based on some interviews I've seen he had a lot of interesting ideas. Ideally, the whole thing could end with Ashan turning out to just be another one of the Ancients' planets and the "dragons" were just powerful elementals that decided it would be fun to play god. I don't know. I'm nostalgic about the characters in Heroes 5 because I grew up playing that game and was always very frustrated with Ubi for the direction they took Ashan in. I've also always felt stuck between the two universes because while I can clearly see JVC's universe is much more coherent and interesting I still have quite an affection for Ashan.
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FirePaladin
FirePaladin


Legendary Hero
DoR Modder
posted May 01, 2020 03:22 PM

I could see the thing about dragons which actually were elementals happen; after all, the elementals were somewhat jerks in the original universe.
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"Goblins use pistols because a shotgun recoil would kick them off the ground flying."
The Reckoning.... it's drawing near....

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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
posted May 01, 2020 04:09 PM

That would never work under Erwan though. He would never agree to his vision being stained by original might&magic impurity!
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb

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FirePaladin
FirePaladin


Legendary Hero
DoR Modder
posted May 01, 2020 04:12 PM
Edited by FirePaladin at 16:12, 01 May 2020.

Elvin said:
That would never work under Erwan though. He would never agree to his vision being stained by original might&magic impurity!


He defies TRUTH?!
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"Goblins use pistols because a shotgun recoil would kick them off the ground flying."
The Reckoning.... it's drawing near....

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Rimgrabber
Rimgrabber


Promising
Famous Hero
Voice in Gelu's Head
posted May 02, 2020 03:21 AM

Down with Erwin the false spider messiah! All hail Marzhin!
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Strigo
Strigo


Hired Hero
posted May 02, 2020 01:13 PM

Rimgrabber said:
All hail Marzhin!

no

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Rimgrabber
Rimgrabber


Promising
Famous Hero
Voice in Gelu's Head
posted May 03, 2020 02:41 AM

alright fair enough
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zmudziak22
zmudziak22


Supreme Hero
Heroes 3 Fan
posted May 03, 2020 01:01 PM

If you played Shades of Darkness, indeed Raelag was against being Demon allies.

Final Cutscenes in Dungeon Campaign explain, that Kha-Beleth will try to change destiny of Raelag to suit Demon Sovereign plans, and he managed that. In Heroes 7, Trial of Fire expansion Raelag was converted to Agrael.

In Tribes of the East map, Agrael Trial, we can noticed that matriachs recognize Agrael as Raelag. Atleast we dont see, that Kha-Beleth didnt brain wash Raelag, like Markal did with Nicolai Griffin.


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pati998
pati998

Tavern Dweller
posted October 18, 2020 04:01 PM


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Rimgrabber
Rimgrabber


Promising
Famous Hero
Voice in Gelu's Head
posted October 19, 2020 01:24 AM

I don't think Markal brainwashed Nikolai... I think his soul was just corrupted by the ritual he used to resurrect him.

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zmudziak22
zmudziak22


Supreme Hero
Heroes 3 Fan
posted October 23, 2020 12:32 AM

I think you are right, since Markal spell, made Nicolai as Vampire, just like Gryphonheart became Lich after Vilmar ressurected him in Heroes 3.
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Aznereth
Aznereth

Tavern Dweller
posted December 24, 2020 11:35 AM
Edited by Aznereth at 11:56, 24 Dec 2020.

zmudziak22 said:
If you played Shades of Darkness, indeed Raelag was against being Demon allies.

Final Cutscenes in Dungeon Campaign explain, that Kha-Beleth will try to change destiny of Raelag to suit Demon Sovereign plans, and he managed that. In Heroes 7, Trial of Fire expansion Raelag was converted to Agrael.

In Tribes of the East map, Agrael Trial, we can noticed that matriachs recognize Agrael as Raelag. Atleast we dont see, that Kha-Beleth didnt brain wash Raelag, like Markal did with Nicolai Griffin.




Hello there. I joined that forum recently, and I'd like to join some lore discussions too.

Personally I think some events either made Raelag to use Void Magic / some Invisible Library forbidden arts or someone used similar techniques to erase him from known history and make him join Sheogh.
But, some dedicated disciples of Malassa managed to uncover his identity after he revealed himself as Agrael. Because Malassa knows all and maybe all of that was some kind of extremely complicated scheme of hers.


On other note, I am extremely curious about Raelag and his siblings age during Tarlad's last days. Raelag and his brothers at least were old enough to immideately jump to rule clans after Tuidhana's death. Also, they set up a Triumvirate system.

Eruina's case is a bit more complicated (Tuidhana labeled her as too young to take care of herself, but she still gathered her own clan and distanced herself from her remaining family) and i was miffled by how devs did with her lore - her presence was basically non-existent despite mentions of her being there and there. (Why the hell she was not involved during the Blades' campaign at the very least? And why even mention her as Yeshtar's charge in one line and then put the 'there is nothing else left in Ygg-Chall for me' in the next without any clarification? At the very least she could mention Eruina being unwilling to step up and unite the clans on her own / challenge Sylsai because some reason. Personally my headcanon is because she made some kind of promise not to interfere in brothers business if they won't interfere in her own)

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Rimgrabber
Rimgrabber


Promising
Famous Hero
Voice in Gelu's Head
posted December 24, 2020 05:10 PM

Hi Aznereth, welcome to the forums! Unfortunately, I think most of this can be chalked up to Ubi not caring enough to hire good writers for Ashan and retconning a bunch of things every game. Which is a shame, because it has so much potential on paper.

I do think it was mentioned at some point that Erunia was only Raelag's half-sister, which might suggest Erunia was an illegitimate child. So perhaps she was absent from the earlier history of Ygg-Chaal for her own protection.

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Aznereth
Aznereth

Tavern Dweller
posted December 24, 2020 06:04 PM
Edited by Aznereth at 18:24, 24 Dec 2020.

Rimgrabber said:
Hi Aznereth, welcome to the forums! Unfortunately, I think most of this can be chalked up to Ubi not caring enough to hire good writers for Ashan and retconning a bunch of things every game. Which is a shame, because it has so much potential on paper.

I do think it was mentioned at some point that Erunia was only Raelag's half-sister, which might suggest Erunia was an illegitimate child. So perhaps she was absent from the earlier history of Ygg-Chaal for her own protection.


Hello. Eruina's relation was explained in MM X and Heroes 6 - Tuidhana at some point married another elf lord (Salvin) and gave birth to her (I think it is safe to presume that Raelag's father was dead at this point. So, she is legitimate youngest child of Tuidhana and her only daughter, but she does not care for her family tree much, preferring to be known for her skills rather than blood). It is just baffling that she was totally absent in 'main campaigns',  especially since Dungeon campaign in 7 revolved over her father's former students and after Menan's death and Raelag-Agrael shenanigans she could have been the only possible solid opposition to Sylsai left.

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Wanderer12
Wanderer12

Tavern Dweller
posted May 29, 2021 05:29 PM
Edited by Wanderer12 at 00:22, 30 May 2021.

Lord_Immortal said:
In H5 it is implied that Raleag brought the Soulscar clan in the service of the Demons. However in Shades of Darkness he is against Sylsai and the cooperation with the demons since the start.

He wasn't part of the deal as Raelag, but in Heroes VII expansion Trial by Fire, you can see Agrael acting as Kha-Beleth's envoy in Agbeth and Ranleth's dealings with demons.

Lord_Immortal said:
How did he became Kha-Beleth's right hand when he was against the demons from the start? If Raelag could use the heart of the Griffin then it means he was not a demon from the start (of H5). Yet (gameplay wise) he has all the powers of a Demon Lord and needs as well to be "cleansed" by Tieru.

It's important to note that back when Agrael's character was first developed, there had not yet been much fleshed out lore on Ashan denizens becoming demons -- which we now know to be the case for succubi. If he had become a demon that way, the Heart of the Griffin would have just as much effect on him as it did on Biara.

What made him essential to Kha-Beleth plans was his ability to stay in Ashan permanently without any need for rituals or portals. It's hard to tell how that's any different from any other demon cultist though.

Lord_Immortal said:
Also, what power did Agrael use to kill Nicolai and if such power exists in the Ashan universe, why no one else has used it so far?

Some sort of magical poison. I'm not sure if it's even that special. After all, it's not as though any Archangel had revived Emperor Liam after he was killed by Ahribban, or Empress Maeve after she was killed by Jezebeth. For all we know, it might've been in use by demons for quite a while now.

Lord_Immortal said:
And one more thing: if the Necromancers are not supposed to be "evil" in the Ashan universe, why did not "good" and powerful necromancers like Arantir intervene when Markal destroyed the Griffin Empire? Didn't Markal's move actually make Isabel vulnerable when she should have been as safe as possible from Kha-Beleth?

You may notice that Markal has this whole act going on with his reverence of Asha. It's obviously an act, but it has a purpose -- other Necromancers would not see him as evil, but rather as a dutiful servant to Asha.

With the death of Ludmilla in Clash of Heroes, Markal would be in perfect position to expand his political influence in Heresh and take charge as its next leader. Let's also not forget that many Necromancers still hold a grudge against the wizards of the Silver Cities, so the prospect of allying with the Griffin Empire against them, while surprising, wouldn't be unwelcome to them.

As for Arantir, at that time he was still focused on his studies -- Giovanni himself remarks that Arantir taking up a proactive role in Heresh politics was a recent development.
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Baggy
Baggy

Tavern Dweller
posted June 29, 2021 12:05 AM

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