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Heroes Community > Heroes 7+ Altar of Wishes > Thread: Building up towns
Thread: Building up towns
Alon
Alon


Known Hero
posted May 26, 2020 01:57 PM

Building up towns

Some ideas for how to make macro more interesting. Let me know what you think about this!

Towns, fortresses, and citadels

There are towns and there are fortresses. A town produces income and has buildings like the blacksmith, tavern, mage guild, shipyard, marketplace, and city walls. Towns are placed on the map at the start and cannot be built or destroyed, only conquered. All towns are the same - towns represent the civilians paying the taxes to support all these armies. Conquering a neutral town requires paying a small amount of money, in order to make expansion not free, but conquering an undefended enemy town is free.

A fortress is specific to a faction. It has unit production buildings, horde buildings, and walls. It takes a single tile on the map and players may build any number anywhere, at a cost. Maps should be designed to allow for choke points that players may construct fortresses in. If it is besieged successfully, it is destroyed and not conquered, but maybe the besieging army can build a new fortress on the ruins at reduced cost, without any of the existing production buildings.

A citadel is a town building that is equivalent to a fortress, and can be built within the town's tech tree. If a town has a citadel, it can build a town building and a fortress building the same turn. If a town is conquered, its citadel is destroyed (but may be rebuilt at reduced cost).

Territory and infrastructure

A town can spend money on building roads, which speed up hero movement, and even bridges on rivers, which allow crossing.

This infrastructure also extends the town's territory. A town's territory consists of tiles within a range, which is extended if there are roads, unless those tiles are closer to another town or very close to an enemy hero; a hero may also control territory within a small range. Each tile generates a small income, maybe 0 for impassable terrain and 10 gp/turn for good farmland; the income goes to the player who controls the town or hero whose territory includes the tile, or to no player if no player's territory reaches it.

Town buildings can increase this income further, but without territory, a town produces no income. An enemy hero parked right outside town lays siege to it, even without battle, and in that case the town produces no external income, only a little bit of internal income.

There could also be mines that are free to flag but cannot be defended without an active hero, providing gold or a miscellaneous resource. But more likely, mines should be part of the territory control system, with tiles just providing more income or a different resource from money.

Tech

Each player can research tech in a town, instead of building a structure that turn; tech belongs to the player and not to the town, so if the town is conquered, the original owner keeps the tech and the conqueror doesn't get to take it. Tech may include the following:

Unit upgrades: a town with a citadel may research upgrades for any unit that the citadel has a production building for. There should be 3 or 4 upgrades per unit; these apply to all units immediately, as in RTSes like Age of Empires and Starcraft, and do not require paying extra money for an upgrade and having to split stacks between upgraded and unupgraded units. For example, pikemen may have upgrades like long pikes, granting the unit first strike when both attacking and defending, and unit cohesion, providing extra morale.

Magic: a town with a mage guild of the appropriate level may research a spell, giving the player's magic heroes access to that spell. The spells to be researched should include a mix of common spells and faction-specific ones.

Economic upgrades: these may include faster ships, higher farm income, and similar things that are more appropriate as player tech than as hero skills.
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MattII
MattII


Legendary Hero
posted May 28, 2020 01:02 AM

Some interesting ideas here. I notice you didn't include the idea of mine-site (without actual mines) like they had in Heroes 4. I rather liked those.

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Baronus
Baronus


Promising
Supreme Hero
posted May 28, 2020 01:04 PM

Maybe 5 lvl of each building
5x mage guild. We have it since HII
5x city 250,500,1000,2000,4000(only one capitol)
5x of castle 20,40,60,80,100% additional units growth.
5x of resource silo/market (first give market second 1,1 wood ore. third 2 wood ore, fourth 2,2 + 1 main resource fifth better prices in market.
5x of alchemist lab where you can buy potions like HIV.
5x each creature buildings. 4 upgrades!!! ( of course it shouldnt be 5x animations each unit but MM system where you have recoloristion Red Blue Bronze Silver Gold as in sport medals.
All of these buildings should have INDEPENDENT progress! No dependenciens between!!!
Building city like this would be a big strategy experience and cannot be finished after game end!
Thats it!

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Jiriki9
Jiriki9


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Altar Dweller
posted July 02, 2020 11:59 AM

There are indeed some interesting ideas here.

One thing I'm not sure about is territory control. The general idea reminds me of AoW and I like it.
Mines controlled by territory though...Snatching mines was both annoying and part of the fun for H2-H5 for me...so I'm, not sure if I like it.

Although I formerly was very sceptical about it, I like the idea of Techs for the entire Faction now.
For the spells, I would prefer the Tech giving it to the mage guilds and the heroes learning it from there then...or, maybe a bit simpler, hero spellbooks only get refreshed when visiting towns with mage guilds OR specific locations OR meating a friendly hero (maybe with a skill for it?).

Quote:
All of these buildings should have INDEPENDENT progress! No dependenciens between!!!

Hmmm I am not sure if I like this. I understand the idea of being able to focus on one without pursuing the others, but I personally like synergies of different things.

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monere
monere


Supreme Hero
posted July 02, 2020 12:17 PM

my friend, alon, what you're saying makes sense and is interesting, but it's not in the spirit of HoMM.

The HoMM franchise had first and foremost won fans over through the strategic element, as well as the SPELL, ARTIFACTS, CREATURES and SKILLS systems, not through town management.

If a new / improved HoMM game will ever emerge it should focus on the 3 elements I've specified which, in reality, comes down to hero customization (which is exactly the main focus of the game I'm having in mind and hope to ever see the light of the day). The town and resource management is secondary in a TBS franchise like HoMM.

And like I've said countless of times before, I will say it again: SURE, if you get the main components of this type of game right (ie. spells, skills, artifacts and creatures), then by all means work towards towns, resources, lore and all other crap.

But first, you need to focus on what has made the franchise successful, and if we were to run a poll and give honest, thoroughly thought about answers... most voters would bet any or all of the 4 elements I've mentioned, not how pretty the towns are, or how many things you can do with them. For this type of mechanic there's also Gal Civ and similar games.
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Dj
Dj


Promising
Supreme Hero
Always loyal to HC
posted July 02, 2020 12:41 PM
Edited by Dj at 12:42, 02 Jul 2020.

While I dont know how Gal Civ is, I can firmly say that the town part is iconic to the HoMM games. It's part of the identity of the series.


When you say HoMM, you associate it with the towns (as well) because...


You have 4 main 'screens' of the game:

1. the world which is the adventure map
2. the city which has a (primitive) tech tree for which this thread is about and creatures
3. the hero screen (secondary elements of the game: artifacts, skills, spells which can be found in all other games)
4. the battlefield

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zydar
zydar


Hired Hero
posted July 02, 2020 01:29 PM

This is make HOMM will be more painfull to manage, if the idea wrong to be implemented.
Especially in small/large map with unbalanced opponents faction
Yes HOMM game can build town like City Building Game, yes HOMM game can collect resource like Civilization game. The Research idea is good but must be more simplify. Maybe Grail idea it just like instant research boost

HOMM game is not City Building Game or Civilization/Age Building Strategy game
HOMM game focus on Combat Strategy, Develop Hero Skill, Adventure Map. Even HOMM can trade resource but all action is just simple not bothering the main focus game

The Additional management is good but, but I fear its make HOMM more complex, if wrong execution in game.

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Dj
Dj


Promising
Supreme Hero
Always loyal to HC
posted July 02, 2020 01:50 PM
Edited by Dj at 13:50, 02 Jul 2020.

zydar said:

HOMM game is not City Building Game or Civilization/Age Building Strategy game


The whole game revolves around the player having a city.

1. If you dont have a city, you lose the game in X days
2. You recruit Heroes from the city (basically, the town feature gives  easy access to heroe feature, besides the starting hero and adventure map prison and tavern)
3. (even repeating myself) the city is literally a 'screen', a tab of the game
4. key buildings that give you access to other important features: spells, war machines, creatures, resources
5. it represents the strategy/play style that you want to play the whole game. You pick your faction at the start of the game and it influences your whole game.


Even the battlefield is not that important because you can 'quick combat' and skip it, whereas you cant skip the town screen.


Of course, adventure map, town screen, hero and battlefield work synergistically and all are as important as the other for Heroes.

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zydar
zydar


Hired Hero
posted July 02, 2020 02:18 PM

Yes HOMM have city building/age building game element, but the roots of HOMM game is King Bounty which city is simple just base for hire/recruit army/ buy something

We can expanded the element city building. resource colection, research tech tree, etc, but i fear if we wrong implemented HOMM will be like AOE, CK, EU, SC, Caesar, Majesty, Total War.

Yes strategy game now is more complex and more grand than before, The HOMM game can expand the micro-macro management in order to compete the last game mechanic. But wisely dont lost the spirit.

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Jiriki9
Jiriki9


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Altar Dweller
posted July 02, 2020 03:54 PM

zydar, I think I do not agree with you. Combat strategy is important, yes, but so is  the building of your cities. Building cities up is a crucial part of the game. Missions completely without cities, like some campaigns have them, can be fun. But to me they always feel like "ah, this was nice, but hopefully the next scenario is a 'normal' homm style scenario again". And for me, at least, city building is very satisfying. Reaching certain milestones (town levels, unit tiers, the mage guild with the spell you wanted) is very HoMM-ish, I think.

Also, whilst it's roots lie in King's Bounty, it has LONG developed far away from it.

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zydar
zydar


Hired Hero
posted July 02, 2020 05:15 PM

The City Building Is important part of HOMM game, but how each faction develop the infrastucture/research can be trouble some.
I dont want any town banned because too powerfull like Conflux, too fast/too long to build, need more/less resource, complex/less tech tree, strong/weak in economic war

The Castle, Tower, Dungeon, Rampart, Conflux and Forge/Factory/Industy on paper is more advanced civilization especialy than Stronghold/ Barbarian Civilization
which still on stone age, the research tech, infrastructure is limited

I agree the idea about more complex city management, more complex micro-macro management. But I more concern on game balance,
I dont want any forbiden city/faction, in any game type, any game map size.
so if we can make balance betwen civilization/faction it will be great.

Maybe the future HOMM game not only focus on Heroes, but about each faction/civilization developtment in many aspect
If future HOMM back in ancient universe, the ancient tech like heavenly forge, gates, blaster, computer, can be part to the game tech/research,
and will be open to any faction to acces,  we can upgrade any bipedal/humanoid creature to use blaster/jetpack

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Jiriki9
Jiriki9


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Altar Dweller
posted July 06, 2020 10:41 AM

I think I see your point. But it could be solved, I think.
One way to do it is simply have different "Techs" (you could rename that as well, btw.) for each faction. Thinking in H3 factions it could look like this:
-Castle: medieval "machines"/"Inventions" like windmills, water wheel, plow for economy; clerical upgrades like rites, clerical hirarchy, inquisition for magics; weapon upgrades for units
-Necropolis: necromantic practices like preying on the living, undead beasts or soul trade for economy; dark rites for magic; sinister experiments for unit upgrades;
-Stronghold: social techs like clan structures, warbands, honor code for economy; Schamanism for magic; Weaponry or some cool "Arena"-style techs for units
....and so on, these were just examples

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