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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted July 05, 2020 01:33 PM |
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Nope, freddie, I wasnt high or drunk at all. Basically, I said you were emotional and you replied “no, no, you leftist guys are the emotional ones.” I guess, by that you mean JJ, minion, blizz and me. (Although, I wouldnt call myself a leftist.) And let me tell you, if there were a thousand alternative universes, not even in one of them, you would be called the logical one and I, the emotional one.
The problem is you may think that you think but you dont know how to think (methodically) and since you have zero self-awareness, your idea of what you’re doing is as accurate as your idea of what the facts are. You are so convinced that you have everything figured out so flawlessly, (and nobody who thinks critically is ever as sure as you about that), you interpret every objection as some kind of misguidance. When I say you think emotional, I’m not talking about defending your opinions passionately or getting angry every once in a while, that can happen to anyone. I’m talking about how your perception is completely constructed by your ego. Even getting a penalty for breaking the CoC becomes about how “the leftist agenda” is trying to silence you for speaking out the truth! And your idea of truth is that the only ones facing discrimination in the U.S. are white males! When I link you people marching with swastika flags, you reply to me “they must be 4chan trolls.” What can I even say to that... Page after page, you write the same mindless rant about how it’s all about the masters pulling the strings, saying jump and the leftists saying “how high” etc etc... but none of that is “thinking” in the real sense of the word, it is just frustration and you produce no reasoning about any of it at all. To “think” on the other is something like this, JJ says something, Sal says something, blizz says something etc, you focus on the argument itself, not the camp it belongs to, you agree or disagree or partly agree, and then you present your reasons for it. However, for that to happen, you must first realize that you dont hold a monopoly on the facts, you interpret the facts and you only see a part of them through your own perspective, if you see any at all. Then, you would have something interesting to say about the subject as an insider.
And no, thanks, I like where I live (except the 100 decibel prayers from the mosques) and if I’m going to have a shot, it will be tequila not bullets. 
____________
Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 05, 2020 03:11 PM |
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artu said:
it will be tequila not bullets.
I recommend the 1800 silver by Jose Cuervo. This one.Really good.
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blob2
Undefeatable Hero
Blob-Ohmos the Second
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posted July 05, 2020 03:49 PM |
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Edited by blob2 at 15:54, 05 Jul 2020.
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artu said:
Page after page, you write the same mindless rant about how it’s all about the masters pulling the strings, saying jump and the leftists saying “how high” etc etc...
Well, maybe Fred is wrong or maybe he is not. Part of the facade of "masters pulling the strings" is to make people belive that anyone who identifies them as "real" is a crazy man. Maybe we don't have some sci-fi like forces pulling the strings, but there are definately groups of interest at work, people who like to keep a state of permanent chaos or who manipulate people to be at each others throats... and to make those people belive it comes from their own conciousness...
artu said:
but none of that is “thinking” in the real sense of the word, it is just frustration and you produce no reasoning about any of it at all.
If freds frustration originates in his personal expieriences (and it seems that way) then, to some point at least, he has a right to be frustrated. I wonder if some people here would still be protective of some groups if they personally felt the madness that has currently grabbed social media or even everyday life. If their livelyhood was destroyed due to protests, their name tarnished due to aggresive smear campaign or they were simply mobbed by a frustrated marginalized "poor soul"...
artu said:
However, for that to happen, you must first realize that you dont hold a monopoly on the facts, you interpret the facts and you only see a part of them through your own perspective, if you see any at all.
True, but I think more participants of recent political discussions here should ask themsleves if they have monopoly on the facts and if their perspective isn't biased also. It's easier to agree with people who have common ground that's the nature of humanity. But that doesn't mean there is only one "right" side. There are bits and pieces either "side" doesn't accept. To be totally neutral or leveled is probably the biggest talent you can have in current mad times. So many "facts" to shape you worldview plus personal expieriences. Or just a talent to steer clear from taking a part in any of this name-calling...
artu said:
And no, thanks, I like where I live (except the 100 decibel prayers from the mosques) and if I’m going to have a shot, it will be tequila not bullets.
Yep aside from government that hates elites (lawyers, doctors, teachers, free media) and has a "after us there can even be a wasteland left" policy I still like where I live (but this is due to change if our current president wins the elections  ). At least we don't have riots or immigration related issues. One less problem to worry about (and many still persistent).
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 05, 2020 04:34 PM |
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Gnomes2169
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Duke of the Glade
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posted July 05, 2020 04:51 PM |
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blob2 said:
Yep aside from government that hates elites (lawyers, doctors, teachers, free media) and has a "after us there can even be a wasteland left" policy I still like where I live (but this is due to change if our current president wins the elections ). At least we don't have riots or immigration related issues. One less problem to worry about (and many still persistent).
Wait... these are your elites? Not oil barons, food executives, military profiteers and electronics/ medical production executives? Teachers, like... high school and public school teachers, are elite where you live, not low-class, almost poverty-level citizens? Your country actually values those positions?! I... I made myself sad...
____________
Yeah in the 18th century, two inventions suggested a method of measurement. One won and the other stayed in America.
-Ghost destroying Fred
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blob2
Undefeatable Hero
Blob-Ohmos the Second
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posted July 05, 2020 05:47 PM |
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Edited by blob2 at 17:57, 05 Jul 2020.
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Gnomes2169 said:
Wait... these are your elites? Not oil barons, food executives, military profiteers and electronics/ medical production executives? Teachers, like... high school and public school teachers, are elite where you live, not low-class, almost poverty-level citizens? Your country actually values those positions?! I... I made myself sad...
Well in Poland majority of the ruling governments electorate are people from rural areas or from working class (which are still a big chunk of society). You see, because of communism there is ongoing hostility towards everyone that is considered "elite" as in "people who work with their brains not their brawn". Becasue only doing manual labor is "true and productive work". This is deeply ingrained unfortunately, becasue working classes and agriculture where first and foremost in communism. Now these people have disrispect for middle to upper class because those have either bigger income (doctors, businessman) or privilages (like teachers who have 2 months of vacation leave). Everything goes towards the hostility as long as it's something "they have, that I don't have". You could call it a "national" shortcoming if you like. Envy and schadenfreude. Thank communsim and some other less glorious aspects of our ancestry.
Plus there were political transformations in the 90s when a lot of people grabbed stuff for next to nothing and made great fortunes on scams. Those scams or abuse of power are present in everyday life in "elites" also (you can read it in newspapers, but hey, bad apples are everywhere), so people have a kind of low esteem for those groups (they see them through the lens corruption, money grabbing, protection etc). And our rulling class plays on those aversions, pointing fingers and using "desire to bring order with those groups like lawyers or doctors" as an excuse to grab even more power. So they fuel up the hate. Worse thing is these politicians are total a-holes, the very synonym of using power to their own gain and very biased and calculated in their world-view and attitude to others.
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fred79
Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 05, 2020 05:54 PM |
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artu said:
Nope, freddie, I wasnt high or drunk at all. Basically, I said you were emotional and you replied “no, no, you leftist guys are the emotional ones.” I guess, by that you mean JJ, minion, blizz and me. (Although, I wouldnt call myself a leftist.) And let me tell you, if there were a thousand alternative universes, not even in one of them, you would be called the logical one and I, the emotional one.
The problem is you may think that you think but you dont know how to think (methodically) and since you have zero self-awareness, your idea of what you’re doing is as accurate as your idea of what the facts are. You are so convinced that you have everything figured out so flawlessly, (and nobody who thinks critically is ever as sure as you about that), you interpret every objection as some kind of misguidance. When I say you think emotional, I’m not talking about defending your opinions passionately or getting angry every once in a while, that can happen to anyone. I’m talking about how your perception is completely constructed by your ego. Even getting a penalty for breaking the CoC becomes about how “the leftist agenda” is trying to silence you for speaking out the truth! And your idea of truth is that the only ones facing discrimination in the U.S. are white males! When I link you people marching with swastika flags, you reply to me “they must be 4chan trolls.” What can I even say to that... Page after page, you write the same mindless rant about how it’s all about the masters pulling the strings, saying jump and the leftists saying “how high” etc etc... but none of that is “thinking” in the real sense of the word, it is just frustration and you produce no reasoning about any of it at all. To “think” on the other is something like this, JJ says something, Sal says something, blizz says something etc, you focus on the argument itself, not the camp it belongs to, you agree or disagree or partly agree, and then you present your reasons for it. However, for that to happen, you must first realize that you dont hold a monopoly on the facts, you interpret the facts and you only see a part of them through your own perspective, if you see any at all. Then, you would have something interesting to say about the subject as an insider.
And no, thanks, I like where I live (except the 100 decibel prayers from the mosques) and if I’m going to have a shot, it will be tequila not bullets.
Again, there are so many things wrong with what you post here, i hardly know where to begin. I have repeated so many valid points ad infinitum, and they always fall on deaf ears because i'm not talking to people capable of GETTING IT. You have no idea how biased you are, and you have no grasp at all that you're just another parrot repeating the same mindless viewpoints when it comes to racism and politics. In other topics, you actually seem to be an intelligent individual, with his own mind(despite being wrong there, too). I don't get how you people can claim others NOT having self-awareness when your kind are the SPITTING IMAGE of such. You people are a definite type; and you truly are lost and incapable of being reached.
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted July 05, 2020 06:23 PM |
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The rubber and glue again, I see. Okie dokie. 
____________
Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 05, 2020 06:44 PM |
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Edited by Stevie at 18:48, 05 Jul 2020.
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So, back on topic. Blizzardboy, I really do wonder, just how much of what these people are doing can you get behind, black militia asking random white driver for reparation? I know the quality isn't exactly stellar, but you can hear the important bits, mainly their argument.
(I swear, every time I see videos like these man... People in the US are crazy and I can only hope it doesn't spread)
Oh, yea, I also found this somewhere - List of major brands, companies, celebrities that supported BLM, George Floyd rioters and looters using lies and misconceptions about black victimization and homicide rates – Blackout Tuesday.
Just putting it out there, someone might find it useful. There's also links to crime statistics on that page.
____________
Guide to a Great Heroes Game
The Young Traveler
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Blizzardboy
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Nerf Herder
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posted July 05, 2020 07:23 PM |
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I'm not interested in the "Find the most egregious/bizarre examples and post them on the internet to make a side look bad" tactic. I'm not sure if I should even respond beyond that.
____________
"Folks, I don't trust children. They're here to replace us."
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 05, 2020 07:57 PM |
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Edited by Stevie at 19:58, 05 Jul 2020.
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I think it's a good and necessary exercise, you will oftentimes be faced with a variety of cases and circumstances presented to you. When you apply your rationale and worldview with an eye on such examples, your arguments become more fleshed out and enable a better understanding of what you agree/disagree with. Of course, it can also be used to demonize and create straw men arguments and instigate, but that's not what I'm following here. The only thing I wanted was to see what you thought of it, which I guess I got a glimpse at even from that reply.
I also did not go out of my way to find that video, sometimes it's what people see at a first search. It may not be an accurate portrayal of the general situation (wasn't aiming to be that), but it's not like it didn't happen either.
____________
Guide to a Great Heroes Game
The Young Traveler
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Kipshasz
Undefeatable Hero
Elvin's Darkside
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posted July 05, 2020 08:53 PM |
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I'd say Turkey should too be compliant in this "reparations" crap, but then again their black male slave stock was relieved of their dingly von danglies (both the eggs and wiener) so they solved that issue.
____________
"Kip is the Gavin McInnes of HC" - Salamandre
"Ashan to the Trashcan", "I got PTSD from H7. " - LizardWarrior
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Blizzardboy
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Nerf Herder
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posted July 05, 2020 09:00 PM |
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Turkey and other countries from the Ottoman already suffer the consequences as a natural effect of their unjust society: their culture declined and Europe flew past them economically, socially, militarily, etc. They continue to suffer from it in the present.
The USA also suffers from the aftereffects of slavery and Jim Crow, among other things, and the past cannot be changed, BUT there are actionable things to do in the present to help people. I have already named some of these.
I have also already addressed the fact that white privilege =/= white guilt. The two are completely different. In fact, I would posit that denying white privilege naturally leads to white guilt, whereas acknowledging it leads to relief and freedom and a sense of peace.
____________
"Folks, I don't trust children. They're here to replace us."
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted July 05, 2020 09:25 PM |
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Edited by artu at 23:32, 05 Jul 2020.
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Kipshasz said:
I'd say Turkey should too be compliant in this "reparations" crap, but then again their black male slave stock was relieved of their dingly von danglies (both the eggs and wiener) so they solved that issue.
Those were only the guys guarding the sultan’s Harem: Kizlaragasi They were castrated because of that.
The thing is, Ottomans were usually the exporters of black slaves in North Africa, not the importers. In their own lands, in principle all the land belonged to the Sultan anyway, there were no aristocrats like in Western feudalism and the local peasants were enough for labor. (That’s why there is no black population in Europe or the Middle East like there is in the USA, unlike American pilgrims, they had their own peasants for labor.)
When an Ottoman pasha heard the word slave, he probably first thought of a concubine from North Caucasia, young girls with milk white skin were quite popular.
Edit: Come to think of it, I am willing to pay reparations and become the slave of a young blonde Caucasian girl. I will do all in my power to serve and please her.
____________
Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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blob2
Undefeatable Hero
Blob-Ohmos the Second
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posted July 05, 2020 10:30 PM |
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Stevie said:
I think it's a good and necessary exercise, you will oftentimes be faced with a variety of cases and circumstances presented to you. When you apply your rationale and worldview with an eye on such examples, your arguments become more fleshed out and enable a better understanding of what you agree/disagree with.
But it doesn't fit my worldview waaaaaah...
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Blizzardboy
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Nerf Herder
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posted July 05, 2020 10:39 PM |
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blob2 said:
Stevie said:
I think it's a good and necessary exercise, you will oftentimes be faced with a variety of cases and circumstances presented to you. When you apply your rationale and worldview with an eye on such examples, your arguments become more fleshed out and enable a better understanding of what you agree/disagree with.
But it doesn't fit my worldview waaaaaah...
"Hey, look what this person did over there" isn't really an argument. It's a deflection.
I suppose you can ask me to clarify whether or not I support burning stuff to the ground, but why should I have to clarify that?
I see this over and over again over the years. Somebody brings up an injustice that happened and then somebody else talks about atrocities and injustice committed in Africa, or suppression of civil liberties in China, or women getting their privates mutilated in Pakistan. C'mon. Seriously peeps. It's not an argument. It's just an excuse to justify mediocrity and inaction.
____________
"Folks, I don't trust children. They're here to replace us."
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blob2
Undefeatable Hero
Blob-Ohmos the Second
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posted July 05, 2020 11:56 PM |
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Edited by blob2 at 00:14, 06 Jul 2020.
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Blizzardboy said:
Somebody brings up an injustice that happened and then somebody else talks about atrocities and injustice committed in Africa, or suppression of civil liberties in China, or women getting their privates mutilated in Pakistan. C'mon. Seriously peeps. It's not an argument. It's just an excuse to justify mediocrity and inaction.
No, it's not about playing down on injustice. It's about showing complexity and layers of problems. It's about a broader perspective. If one side proceeds to only show their proof-of-concept examples, you need to counter it with your examples, because there is no other way. Let's take what you brought up:
There are wronged women and there are woman that are taking advantage of man (for example seduce them, and proceed to discredit them if they feel casted off, they can be very creative and calculating). Of course this goes for man also, but currently man don't have equal power to prove their point, or at least it's harder. Ofc there are countries that treat woman wrongly, but it's brought up to show that some issues of some more blatant feminist are petty in the grander scale of issues. Sexual predators are brought to justice if their guilt is proven, and everyday inequalities are progressivly and succesfully settled.
China doesn't give a f*ck about anyone (liberties included), they do what they please and Western civilization only brought them tools to fuel their progress. Ofc it's an ancient and highly sophisticated civilization with their own ingenuity, but they always had the "good of many before an individuals needs" approach and it won't change soon. They won't hold back as long as they have interest in sth, so playing by their rules is dangerous, because ultimately you will be the one on the loosing end. It's a different system of governing, but highly effective if you ask me. In getting what they want they are similar to USA which also gets what it wants (bringing "democracy" cough cough), but China does it in a less noisy manner.
For every hurt people of color there are ones taking advantage of the system or straight up unreformable, because they DON'T want to change. At this point it's not the problem with how they were brought up, but how they behave and what to do with them in a (hopefully) civil manner. Do I need to tell there are also such groups of white people, living of social benefits? Of course there are, but "racism" can't be used in this context. Africa is relevant becasue it shows that in a place predominantly occupied by some big groups, the less numerous ones will always be at the bad end of the stick (be it color, race or religion). I'm talking common folk, not people with power or possibilities who can escape this. And because many of them are uneducated, they do it in the only way they know: with force. USA has it's issues, but conlicts are resolved in a more civilized manner, so at least this much should be appreciated. Going back to USA, the current coverage of #blm is one-sided, there's generalization and finger-pointing becasue it sells better. Things are not handled calmly by a staggering number of people, but in a "witch-hunt" manner because everything in-between is met with the same level of agression (symbols of "white privilage", "angry white males", you name it). History is rewritten and discarded because the mob dictates so. Decisions are made rashly and based on emotions. No one listens to people who try to keep it calm. Alas saying something that doesn't "fit in" brings you trouble. Virtue signaling takes the predominant role. In wanting to "get even" with people of color it is forgotten that there are also white people harassed by the systems and prejudice (racism works both ways).
The main problem is that you don't accept how polarized and double-sided the world is. I at least try to cope with some things, otherwise I would probably end up as a hater or nationalist, because hostility brings up more hostility... I rather stay "mediocre" or "inactive" then do damage.
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Blizzardboy
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Nerf Herder
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posted July 06, 2020 12:17 AM |
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First off, I think your post is QP worthy. So thank you for the well-articulated response.
Secondly: I have said before and will say again that I am not part of the GOP vs Democrat binary that plagues the USA. The polarization in American politics and American media is indeed dire.
Largely, the GOP/Democratic platforms do not represent me, nor have they at any point in US history represented me... then again, very few platforms do. The Christian Democrats of Europe post-WW2/post-Holocaust in the 20th century match fairly well with me, but they've more-or-less gone extinct and have been replaced with predators and sharks as that continent has gone into long-term decline and become more secularized and is no longer fully capable of being a leader in the world, or even a capable leader of itself for that matter. It would be very surprising if the EU didn't further deteriorate beyond Brexit but I guess we'll wait and see what happens in the next 10 years.
I am perfectly okay with hearing more nuanced viewpoints _if_ it isn't used in a way to detract from the bigger picture, and that is a very big if. I have zero problem with people talking about women passive-aggressively exploiting men for money, for example. What I do have a problem with is when people are talking about #Metoo and the endemic problems of sexual harassment and sexual abuse, and then somebody says something to the effect of, "Yeah, but what about this, and what about that?" The difference in this scenario is that the person isn't actually trying to get a wider picture of societal problems, but they are instead inducing a whataboutism. They are trying to take attention away from a problem by talking about something else, and this is not in anyway constructive or useful. Whataboutisms are one of the worst problems that exist in conversations today. It's also the go-to tactic for demagogue leaders. They talk on and on and on about some outside evil power in order to distract the population from their own personal abuses, and unfortunately, it seems to work really well.
Does this make sense?
____________
"Folks, I don't trust children. They're here to replace us."
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fred79
Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 06, 2020 12:32 AM |
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artu said:
The rubber and glue again, I see. Okie dokie.
*holds up a mirror*
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blob2
Undefeatable Hero
Blob-Ohmos the Second
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posted July 06, 2020 12:54 AM |
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Blizzardboy said:
replaced with predators and sharks as that continent has gone into long-term decline and become more secularized and is no longer fully capable of being a leader in the world, or even a capable leader of itself for that matter. It would be very surprising if the EU didn't further deteriorate beyond Brexit but I guess we'll wait and see what happens in the next 10 years.
In return, I think these are wise words coming from you.
Blizzardboy said:
Does this make sense?
Yes.
If you weren't doing some weird posting from time to time maybe I would have a better understanding of you but I regulary get confused about what you are really thinking
When it comes to "whataboutism". I think it mainly comes from the fact that both sides usually tend to bring up the extremes in discussions. I only react to things like "whites are the root cause of the problems in USA". On a general scale they probably are as they created the country, marginalizied natives and brought in slaves which they exploited for many years. But what I in turn hate is the "now it's time to repent" philosophy. Changes need to be aplicated slowly, you can't bring the whole goddamn circus with you and expect everything will be made right at once. Suddenly people forgot how much good was already done and that regular people try to be civil. USA is a mad country, a hodgepodge of sorts, but it's also one that has made "something from nothing" in a very short timespan, and first and foremost gives possibilities to so many people. It would be bad if it was brought down because of too many emotions and mutual accusations.
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This thread is pages long: 
