|
| Thread: Talking About Freedom from Religion |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 · «PREV / NEXT» |
|
JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
|
posted August 06, 2020 06:58 PM |
|
|
@ Blizz
Maybe you should check what Determinism means.
About Calvin - yes. But those points are incoherent - you might call them the uncertainty relation of Christian religion (because sometimes things are determined and sometimes not). In short - they make no sense. They are also not ALL relevant for the problem.
But sure. Some protestant thinkers had strange ideas - it does point to the fact that the teachings are difficult.
|
|
Corribus
Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
|
|
posted August 06, 2020 07:44 PM |
|
Edited by Corribus at 19:47, 06 Aug 2020.
|
JollyJoker said:
Of course it does. Quantum processes, mutation, quantum processes in the brain, they all occur RANDOMLY. They are unpredictable.
At the atomistic level, yes. But ensembles generally behave predictably. By which I mean: you cannot predict whether a coin will lands on heads or tails, but because you have knowledge about the probabilities, you can predict was the expected average result will be for an observable attached to the outcome as the number of flips approaches infinity. For instance, if you must lose a penny for every heads and gain a penny for every tails, you cannot predict how much money you will have after a small number of flips, but if you can flip the coin an infinite number of times, you can predict exactly how much money you will have in the future. This is contingent on having information about the rules and assuming that the number of particles/events is infinite. Much the same for quantum physics. How good a prediction you can make will depend on the number of events and how well you know the rules. In theory there is no perfect predictability because infinity generally doesn't exist in time or mass.
What this means as far as free will and determinism goes, of course, is open for debate. You two aren't the first to debate it.
____________
I'm sick of following my dreams. I'm just going to ask them where they're goin', and hook up with them later. -Mitch Hedberg
|
|
JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted August 06, 2020 10:41 PM |
|
|
Ok, I bite. Why would you think that the law of big numbers would matter when it comes to individual people and their free will?
I mean, you might be able to prove that in the given situation, in Germany in 1939 the NSDAP would have ended with a result of 44% - but could you have determined what every single person would have voted? I don't think so. Only with a certain probaility, so in the end the 44% would have been right, but with the individual votes you'd be wrong in some instances.
Probabilities are a great thing. But they are the opposite of determinism. Determinism wants to know the next dice roll, not the statistics of an infinite number of dice rolls.
|
|
artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
|
|
posted August 06, 2020 11:42 PM |
|
|
Putting what Corribus said aside, probability does not equate free will anyway. You can still be behaving according to your brain’s chemistry, even if that chemistry doesnt operate by some absolutely deterministic law. Chaotic variations, no matter how big or small, do not naturally conclude free will. Probable variation doesnt mean deliberate choice.
Don’t get me wrong, I dont disregard the concept of free will completely, though at this point, most research show it has much less effect on our decisions than what we used to assume. But sub-atomic level particle movements have not much to do with this.
____________
Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
|
|
Baronus
Legendary Hero
|
|
posted August 07, 2020 12:05 AM |
|
|
Mutations are only negative. Its patology. Mutated units dying fast and often cant have reproduction. Nature are defeding from mutations.
Probability is for us but not for God. He is a ruler of probability! So we have two sides. God side when all is known and our side. We know nothing. But if we would be able calculate all accident for us chaos dont exist! So person who can calculate all knows everything. This Person is a God. As you see God existining is a result all correctly thnking process.
|
|
tSar-Ivor
Promising
Legendary Hero
Scourge of God
|
|
posted August 07, 2020 12:46 AM |
|
|
|
Knowing everything is pointless if you do not know how to manipulate the data for a particular outcome. Which is pointless, since you made it all up to begin with, why go through the trouble of having to manipulate an outcome when you can just clap your hands and have to outcome to start with. Humans require trial and conflict for progression, an almighty god does not. Especially when it comes to free will.
|
|
artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
|
|
posted August 07, 2020 02:11 AM |
|
|
Who’s free will? If there was a god, it would have had free will, that’s not the conflict. (You can go Spinoza and say even it cant but then god becomes nature anyway, which is what I think of him, he calls nature god because he lived in the 17th century.)
____________
Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
|
|
bloodsucker
Legendary Hero
|
|
posted August 07, 2020 04:12 AM |
|
|
I
Baronus said:
Henry 8 was psycho killiing wifes etc. If its your idol congratulations. All those heretics are psycho read about Luter and Kalvin. Present protestats are shocked if you read him works of Luther or Kalvin. They give us horrible ,religious wars'...
Its only one Church.
No God dont create eating meat lions. See Genesis. In paradise is no meateating. Its no eating beacuse you cant die :0))) Logic. You may eat or eat nothing and you are stil alive. I know christianity so you have no chance find something failed in Bible. Wasted time. :0))) ,Poor devil'... Are you mad? This scum is full of evil. If someone have pity to him is a mad man. Your post are more and more mad. If youre satan cultist tell me. We stop all contacts because its completly nonsense talking with evil mads.
Baronus said:
Henry 8 was psycho killiing wifes etc. If its your idol congratulations.
It's not, the only Henry between them is the fifth and even in that case, I idolize the shakespearean fictional character (good fiction), not the real person.
Baronus said:
No God dont create eating meat lions. See Genesis. In paradise is no meateating. Its no eating beacuse you cant die :0))) Logic.
But in the world we all live in lions eat meat, so:
1. Didn't god created the world we live in?
2. Besides condemning all future generations of human beings for a single act of Adam&Eve, the all loving god also evicted all other animals from paradise, because of it?
3. If god created the Paradise and also the realm where we live in, are there lions who deserve to be saved and others that don't? Were the last ones also temped by Satan?
4. Besides Christians, (those we know they all deserve it) are there other lion's sinful preys, so the lions can feed themselves?
Logic questions.
BaronusYou said:
You may eat or eat nothing and you are stil alive.
So, there is or there isn't meat eating? If the lion decides to eat, is his prey alive during the process? This certainly sounds like something your all loving god would do, for sure.
BaronusYou said:
I know christianity so you have no chance find something failed in Bible. Wasted time.
Yeah! I know it's a waste of time to argue against christian logic. Yet, some less deluded people may come to see the light, it is known to have happened in the past.
BaronusYou said:
Are you mad? This scum is full of evil. If someone have pity to him is a mad man.
This is your better argument about everything you don't like, from Satan to Protestants, from BLM to Marxism and Communism. And you provide the same evidence for all of it, nothing but deranged blabbering.
BaronusYou said:
Your post are more and more mad.
I make your words mine. 
BaronusYou said:
If youre satan cultist tell me.
Nope, he is just another product of BAD fiction.
BaronusYou said:
We stop all contacts
No, please. You are the only one keeping this thread on track. Please, continue with your logical reasoning.
BaronusYou said:
its completly nonsense talking with evil mads.
Yeah! But it's quite amusing.
II
Baronus said:
Mutations are only negative. Its patology. Mutated units dying fast and often cant have reproduction. Nature are defeding from mutations.
Probability is for us but not for God. He is a ruler of probability! So we have two sides. God side when all is known and our side. We know nothing. But if we would be able calculate all accident for us chaos dont exist! So person who can calculate all knows everything. This Person is a God. As you see God existining is a result all correctly thnking process.
Baronus said:
Mutations are only negative.
Maybe you should learn what a mutation is. Types of Mutations I
Baronus said:
Probability is for us but not for God.
I agree, the probability for your god to exist is an absolute 0(zero).
Baronus said:
We know nothing.
We know, ignorance is the bliss of all christians.
Baronus said:
But if we would be able calculate all accident for us chaos dont exist! So person who can calculate all knows everything. This Person is a God.
So, that person knew calling the attention of the first human couple to the existence of the tree of knowledge wouldn't stop them from eating it's fruit but instead incite their curiosity. But he did it anyway.
Was he forced to it by something superior to him? Is he evil? Is he inferior to Satan? Is he really the sadistic portrayed in the Bible*?
If it was inevitable why did he punished Adam&Eve (and all their descendants for all eternity) for it?
Baronus said:
As you see God existining is a result all correctly thnking process.
We all have seen evidence of how correct your thnking process is. Now we just need some of god existining. 
* The Bible: the ultimate evidence that best-sellers are generally poorly written bad fiction. We really didn't need to wait for 50 Shades of Grey to prove it.
____________
|
|
JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted August 07, 2020 09:11 AM |
|
|
artu said:
Putting what Corribus said aside, probability does not equate free will anyway. You can still be behaving according to your brain’s chemistry, even if that chemistry doesnt operate by some absolutely deterministic law. Chaotic variations, no matter how big or small, do not naturally conclude free will. Probable variation doesnt mean deliberate choice.
Don’t get me wrong, I dont disregard the concept of free will completely, though at this point, most research show it has much less effect on our decisions than what we used to assume. But sub-atomic level particle movements have not much to do with this.
We must make a difference between decision making. deliberate choice and the concept of free will and its meaning.
The concept in effect means just that there is no thing like fate. That, while there is a prophecy that Oedipus would slay his father and marry his mother, it's meaningless and if Oedipus really ended up doing that it wasn't fate (or something like that) at work, but happenstance - or, a mix of decisions that can be called unlucky in hindsight, and that needs more than a couple of people making decisions.
Also, you wouldn't waste this concept with daily stuff or unconscious decisions made without much thought and not registered as decisions.
However, this deals with stuff that is "happenstantial", but LOOKS like it can't just be random. You might say, it's a general disbelief that improbable LOOKING things "may just happen". So this is actually not a question of "free will" or the way we understand this in this discussion. It's a question of how IN HINDSIGHT things can look quite orchestrated, the acting people not seeing the full picture, until everything has happened. It's clear that people would call that fate - the actors have no reason to do something different, because they don't know what's going on. "I wish I had known", is something you hear. "Free will" comes into play only in asking, could they have acted differently. Answer, yes, at any given time - but they had no reason to.
So this is basically about coincidence. Is everything coincidence - or, especially if something unlikely happens, may there be some power at work, orchestrating things, without anyone suspecting (and therefore not able to counter it.
In modern terms the discussion follows more the question of how decision-making is actually working - what factors play a role, whether we follow hard-coded routines and so on. I don't think, that this helps the discussion - of course there are hard-coded routines, but they are not the question. There is stuff you are born with and there is stuff you learn and there is atuff imprinted while you are young. So the question isn't whether the will is free, it's whether it's a deterministic process or not.
For me it isn't. This is a summary of what is currently known about quantum effects in the brain (it's from end of 2019). Think about inspiration, genius discoveries or experiments and so on. The consciousness/brain is not working in a deterministic way - there are things happening that are comparable with "quantum jumps", so in the end this is true for the expression of will as well.
|
|
bloodsucker
Legendary Hero
|
|
posted August 07, 2020 09:29 AM |
|
|
Let me see if I got it right... You believe, despise being conditioned by one too many factors, our will is not determined, so there is free will. Is that it?
____________
|
|
JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted August 07, 2020 09:41 AM |
|
|
It's what this amounts to. With science exploring and "decoding" ever more, naturally the brain and its working is object of science again, and analyzing processes and conditions that INFLUENCE decision making are a thing. Determinism as a philosophy was the direct consequence of people seeing what science can do and how we can "decode" what's happening.
But ask yourself this. If we decode certain "programmings", wouldn't the knowledge of them being there allow us to say, heck, I want to do this, but science teaches me that I want this only because [program a]. I will do the opposite of it, just for the heck of it.
That's what stands above this. Once we KNOW about all these things, we can take that into account and act and decide "accordingly". Psychotherapy is another example.
So, yes. Free will. We have a choice when we have pertinent info.
|
|
bloodsucker
Legendary Hero
|
|
posted August 07, 2020 09:56 AM |
|
|
I'm with you, I only found too difficult not to misunderstand the position. For me free will exists, it's a given. Couldn't care less if it's my ID taking control of the decision making process or whatever.
Because fate and determinism tend to be crippling believes related to the enslaved (i.e. believers of all religions).
____________
|
|
friendofgunnar
Honorable
Legendary Hero
able to speed up time
|
|
posted August 09, 2020 03:30 AM |
|
|
Kipshasz said:
If you ever encountered a fanatical creationist idiot, chances are, like 99 out of a 100, that he belongs to one or another protestant sect.
Had to lol at this. is true
Fundamentalists: "God made the earth look old to test our faith."
There may be some catholics that believe this but I haven't met any yet.
|
|
tSar-Ivor
Promising
Legendary Hero
Scourge of God
|
|
posted August 09, 2020 03:51 AM |
|
|
Let's not forget that days of the week existed before the world was even created, I mean morning and evening on the third day - how did we get to the third day without it -.-?
____________
"No laughs were had. There is only shame and sadness." Jenny
|
|
bloodsucker
Legendary Hero
|
|
posted August 09, 2020 12:26 PM |
|
|
Cause god was the first watchmaker. He made a Rolex for himself before creating the light, cause he was also the first union worker and he wanted to know when he could stop working, according to the first Devil's Contract.
____________
|
|
NoobX
Undefeatable Hero
Now, this is a paradox...
|
|
posted August 09, 2020 12:29 PM |
|
|
You wouldn't believe how convoluted the explaining of the old testament gets when subjected to such questions. I've rolled my eyes countless of times during the medieval philosophy course while listening to apologetics.
So those aren't real days, it's a metaphor of the order of creation, and so on...
____________
Ghost said:
Door knob resembles anus tap.
|
|
bloodsucker
Legendary Hero
|
|
posted August 09, 2020 12:54 PM |
|
|
I do believe, I've been in Philosophy and Religion classes for quite some time. Where do you think I've distilled all the hate I have towards them?
____________
|
|
Ghost
Undefeatable Hero
Therefore I am
|
|
posted August 09, 2020 02:14 PM |
|
Edited by Ghost at 22:34, 09 Aug 2020.
|
|
Free will is a fact and exists without an axiom or something. As he shoots someone, someone jumps 10 meter from height into pool and a simple Eve and Adam ate poison fruit. The author deceived us, that is why free will exists, so someone doesn't believe in the Bible, and free will doesn't exist. In principle! I can give a good example The Bible told of the deaf. Doctors believe they are disabled/handicapped and helpless. Doctors and others are trying to help them. But the deaf think we're racial. But can't help the deaf. Therefore, a strong word is in the Bible. So the same thing of free will. Also remember the Bible’s own way, e.g. have you seen a ghost, what does the Bible say? Satan plays a ghost. So we don't believe in Satan. Therefore, the ghost doesn't exist. So it was with the deaf and free will. The authors of the Bible are a very intelligent Jew.
|
|
Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
|
|
posted August 09, 2020 02:56 PM |
|
Edited by Zenofex at 14:57, 09 Aug 2020.
|
Quote:
At the atomistic level, yes. But ensembles generally behave predictably.
Mostly this. Until there is a unification theory that explains both quantum-level phenomenons and large-scale phenomenons (as they are defined nowadays), it's purely a speculation to claim that what you observe on sub-atomic level also applies as-is to the "big world". Nothing that we know of if is a simple sum of its parts and I partially blame reductionism for the tendency of explaining complete systems with the properties of their building blocks. Right know we can state with certainty only that we expand the border of our own ignorance with every next discovery.
That's not a problem for the religious guys though, they have the answers for millenia. 
|
|
Baronus
Legendary Hero
|
|
posted August 09, 2020 03:41 PM |
|
|
It's not, the only Henry between them is the fifth and even in that case, I idolize the shakespearean fictional character (good fiction), not the real person.
... Fiction :0))) Shakespeare was a hidden christian as scientist says because was pursued by real Henry 8 cultists.
But in the world we all live in lions eat meat, so:
1. Didn't god created the world we live in?
. Yes but is corrupted by people...
2. Besides condemning all future generations of human beings for a single act of Adam&Eve, the all loving god also evicted all other animals from paradise, because of it?
... Because animals are ruled by people and are only for people. Adam i Eva was not a singke ,act'! It was MAIN CHOICE AGGAINIST GOOD!
3. If god created the Paradise and also the realm where we live in, are there lions who deserve to be saved and others that don't? Were the last ones also temped by Satan?
...
No because havent free will and are similiar to living machines. So its nonsense to temped car or vacuum cleaner.
4. Besides Christians, (those we know they all deserve it) are there other lion's sinful preys, so the lions can feed themselves?
Logic questions.
???? Christ not ,deserve' to die. In christianity we have explanation innocent victim. Which motive you have in all religions.
So, there is or there isn't meat eating? If the lion decides to eat, is his prey alive during the process? This certainly sounds like
something your all loving god would do, for sure.
??? In paradise no meateating. After sin yes. Whats the problem?! Its easy.
This is your better argument about everything you don't like, from Satan to Protestants, from BLM to Marxism and Communism. And you provide the same evidence for all of it, nothing but deranged blabbering.
... All of these was murdered ideologies. But ofcourse we have a lot of honest protestants very small honestes communist like Orwell. A no honest satanists. But bad is bad. I dont tell ,all protestants are evil'. Dont mix people and ideology.
BaronusYou said:
If youre satan cultist tell me.
Nope, he is just another product of BAD fiction.
... No. First that all cultures has demons because its real human experience. Secon telling about is not to make horror story but to be carefuly.
Maybe you should learn what a mutation is. Types of Mutations I
...
Yes 97 % are negative 3% maybe neutral and 0.01% maybe maybe positive. Its general degeneration process.
I agree, the probability for your god to exist is an absolute 0(zero).
... Give me you calculationn:0))) Still empty words. Sorry Socrates Plato Aristotle vs. Dawkins :0))) Is funny to comapre.
Baronus said:
We know nothing.
We know, ignorance is the bliss of all christians.
... No its true and humlby?! How is this Cardinal Virtue in english?
So, that person knew calling the attention of the first human couple to the existence of the tree of knowledge wouldn't stop them from eating it's fruit but instead incite their curiosity. But he did it anyway.
... Yes because its freedom. Can stop but its captivity. Logic.
Was he forced to it by something superior to him? Is he evil? Is he inferior to Satan? Is he really the sadistic portrayed in the Bible*?
... He gives us freedom we lost it!!! Not God lost WE LOST! Its simply!
If it was inevitable why did he punished Adam&Eve (and all their descendants for all eternity) for it?
....
No! He gives us Jesus and salvation! We lost He recover! Simply! He is Love! We make evil God only good.
As you have in eng. God= good!!! Simply language logic!
* The Bible: the ultimate evidence that best-sellers are generally poorly written bad fiction. We really didn't need to wait for 50 Shades of Grey to prove it.
... First you must understand any seller to rate it.
|
| |
|
|
