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| Thread: Does your Thor still have balls? |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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blob2
Undefeatable Hero
Blob-Ohmos the Second
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posted August 23, 2020 12:15 AM |
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bloodsucker
Legendary Hero
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posted August 23, 2020 04:07 AM |
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I really don't see a problem with that. He co-exists with the Bruce Wayne Batman, it's a secret identity, a similar mask to hide another person.
Compared to James Bond becoming James Brown or Jacqueline Bond or having the god of thunder, that is a figure of the Nordic Mythology, wearying a skirt, I'm totally fine with it.
I would be ok with Valkyrie or Lady Sif gaining a more important role in the MCU and I hope one day to see a Black Widow movie. I would also be totally fine with a 006 or 008, who is a female that works for the MI5 and is connected to James Bond, the 007. It's when I watch a character being transgendered or blackwashed, to cash in on the popularity of a previously established character, while being transmorphed without any respect for the older identity, in the name of inclusivity, that my problems start.
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fred79
Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
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posted August 23, 2020 10:08 AM |
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I agree with the last paragraph.
I actually went back on my word and had given "The Dark Tower" a chance...
And regretted it. Even as just a movie, it blew chunks. I never would have ok'd such an abortion, if I had been the author. Making Roland black was really just the beginning of what was wrong with that movie.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted August 23, 2020 10:16 AM |
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What I find interesting is the fact that we've seen Morgan Freeman playing God and Liz Hurley plaing the Devil without any hickup - but those movies were comedies...
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted August 23, 2020 10:28 AM |
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Edited by artu at 10:33, 23 Aug 2020.
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I get your point but not exactly the same thing in both cases, god is kind of imageless, many artists mold him into the picture they want. You can say Michelangelo style old, bearded white guy is the most traditional one but it is still not as direct as 007 = British, white agent. Devil has also been pictured in many ways, by now, the image with Pan horns and feet + Poseidon trident is the most popular one, but there is also a strong tradition of the she-devil, the femme fatale of temptation that is on par.
That being said, given enough time, any iconization will go through significant change. The 007 of 2000’s is already quite different than the macho Sean Connery of 1960’s. Imagine how he would transform given thousands of years like the devil or god.
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted August 23, 2020 11:25 AM |
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I don't think I have a position here. My last post was more with a view on Thor. I'm not even sure whether sex and skin color are of any matter. For "gods" - sex and skin color shouldn't even matter, since surely their looks are just a projected image. For worldly heroes, yup, 007 is male, that much is clear. 007 shouldn't be a woman. But I'm not so sure whether skin color is such a thing. The ORIGINAL 007 has served in the 2nd WW - but a current 007 cannot have done that, the stories taking place in the present time. A Bond playing in a movie in 2025 might have been born, say, 1990. He COULD be the son of a Scottish father and an India-born mother, for example.
What I want to say is, that tranfering the stories in time also transfers the hero "out of" their biography. Batman's first story was release in 1939, so Bruce Wayne was born at least 100 years ago, which means, in 2020 (in a story playing in 2020) Batman CANNOT be Bruce Wayne anymore.
So that transfer in time is making things a bit more complicated, when you look a bit more closely.
Oh, a PS: The Phantom manages the time transfer quite well - it's a family operation...
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted August 23, 2020 11:38 AM |
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If this batman has a story justification like being related to Lucius, that's kind of okay. It would then depend of the char or story is good, like Miles Morales turned out to be popular. But if they randomly tried to reimagine batman as a black dude, that would be funny.
Now, everyone draws their own line and there are numerous ways to successfully reinvent a character without pissing off the majority of their fans. A politically corrent or female Bond is not one of them.
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted August 23, 2020 11:57 AM |
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@JJ: Meh, heroes should be timeless, imo.
@Elvin: Oof.
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blob2
Undefeatable Hero
Blob-Ohmos the Second
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posted August 23, 2020 12:11 PM |
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Edited by blob2 at 12:45, 23 Aug 2020.
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Elvin said:
Now, everyone draws their own line and there are numerous ways to successfully reinvent a character without pissing off the majority of their fans. A politically corrent or female Bond is not one of them.
Yep, but that's just it. If Batman were black to begin with (ofc this wan't possible at the time the character was conceived) at this point he would be an established character. Would he be still this popular? Highly doubtful, we know the history of racial tensions in USA.
But whenever I see "reinvent" and "people of color" in todays day and age a lamp lights up in my head. I can't find a single other justificitation in the minds of those people other then: becasue it's the "progressive" way. It's just feels dishonest, cheap and forced. I know comics studios are businesses at heart, but they just want to piggyback on a characters popularity instead of trying something new.
For example, as a person interested in Native American culture, its myths and art in a broader sense, I find it outrageous that they aren't as much represented in comic culture. How many popular indigenous characters can you name in Marvel comics for example? Maybe Red Wolf, Moonstar or Warpath, but that's it... yet no one makes a big deal out of it.
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Blizzardboy
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Nerf Herder
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posted August 23, 2020 12:57 PM |
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@blob
Spiderman was originally a white character, but he also has a newer version where he is a black Hispanic - Miles Morales - and there was even an animated movie made on him, which frankly, is the best Spiderman movie out there in my opinion.
As far as the Native American part: there is a desire for more representation of Native Americans, but it isn't heard about as frequently to some extent because of numbers: around 1% of the country is Native, or around 2% identify as mixed Native. There's also the question of where they are located demographically. I lived 3 years on an Apache reservation during graduate studies (between 2014-2017) and it was surrounded by a lot of mountains and pretty remote. Most Native Americans live on or near tribal reservations and they don't have as strong as a voice in entertainment/media/sports, which are more concentrated in metropolitan areas on the coasts.
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Blizzardboy
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Nerf Herder
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posted August 23, 2020 01:02 PM |
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@Elvin:
Well, there seems to be a mixed message on this board. On one hand, people allegedly want storywriters to be independent and to write what they want. On the other hand, it's allegedly a bad thing if they anger the fan base, which is just another way of saying "I want market capitalism to rule the world of art " or "Research what the fans want and then copy/paste it into the product".
It's a fact that market capitalism rules the world of art for the most part anyway, but when they do decide to take a calculated risk, it can mean attracting fresh people to the franchise. A female Bond could be good or could be terrible depending on how it is presented, but either way, that franchise is very slowly dying and the character doesn't resonate like it used to.
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"Folks, I don't trust children. They're here to replace us."
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bloodsucker
Legendary Hero
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posted August 23, 2020 01:22 PM |
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blob2 said:
But whenever I see "reinvent" and "people of color" in todays day and age a lamp lights up in my head. I can't find a single other justificitation in the minds of those people other then: becasue it's the "progressive" way. It's just feels dishonest, cheap and forced. I know comics studios are businesses at heart, but they just want to piggyback on a characters popularity instead of trying something new.
This.
blob2 said:
For example, as a person interested in Native American culture, its myths and art in a broader sense, I find it outrageous that they aren't as much represented in comic culture. How many popular indigenous characters can you name in Marvel comics for example? Maybe Red Wolf, Moonstar or Warpath, but that's it... yet no one makes a big deal out of it.
I even gave the example of Iron Fist being the white guy that proves to be superior to an entire population of Asians, cause it's not necessary to be woke about Asians (or Indian Americans) since there isn't much to cash in from those communities.
It's curious how the indians that were a major theme in the gold age of the westerns movies, disappeared from the scenery except for white people becoming offended about Red Skins football team.
Just to put more gasoline in to the fire, it seams the gay community of the 70's was more inclusive of native americans then the wokes are today.
Blizzardboy said:
It's a fact that market capitalism rules the world of art for the most part anyway
I would agree, if you change the word art for entertainment. The very large majority of what Hollywood produces these days is as much art as my smashed potatoes with mozzarella.
Blizzardboy said:
when they do decide to take a calculated risk, it can mean attracting fresh people to the franchise. A female Bond could be good or could be terrible depending on how it is presented, but either way, that franchise is very slowly dying and the character doesn't resonate like it used to.
That's the thing, it's not taking a calculated risk, is trying to avoid to take a risk by simply disrespecting the work of others to pander to whatever group(s) they imagine will help them to cash in. Even your justification to why there aren't enough American Indians in the 2000's entertainment productions already implies that.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted August 23, 2020 01:29 PM |
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Galaad said:
@JJ: Meh, heroes should be timeless, imo.
Their biography can't be, though - not when you transfer the hero in time. It's also somewhat lame, because it means they cannot develop - or get old(er). Even Spider-Man/Peter Parker has developed from being a high-school student to college student to married high-school teacher to freelance photographer.
In short, timeless is difficult.
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blob2
Undefeatable Hero
Blob-Ohmos the Second
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posted August 23, 2020 01:34 PM |
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Edited by blob2 at 13:45, 23 Aug 2020.
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Blizzardboy said:
@blob
Spiderman was originally a white character, but he also has a newer version where he is a black Hispanic - Miles Morales - and there was even an animated movie made on him, which frankly, is the best Spiderman movie out there in my opinion.
The subtle difference here is that Miles was introduced as part of Ultimate Fallout's series Earth-1610. People liked him, he gained immense popularity and more of his apperances followed, resulting in the critically acclaimed Into the Spider-verse and so on. So it was a natural way - a character is introduced as part of a story and gains people interest in him. Plus he is actually an alternative universe character, so a "character" in his own right.
What they seem to be doing with Batman in the case of is "hey look how great we are, we are introducing this new Batman as a person of color into your face, praise us for our progressiveness!". This "we're doing him as a person of color character" is disgusting cus they are treating this like some kind of bargaining chip... not only that, they give it to a screenwriter acclaimed for his work on a movie about Antebellum America to gain even more points, cus now the headlines can accent that a "12 years a slave" screenwriter is penning it. This is marketing slur as at its finest and pigeonhole's a piece of work right from the start. Hopefully it's really the same case as with Morales (alternative character), at least the news article would suggest so.
I wonder how it will turn out. Batman has some of the most diehard fandoms out there and they can be very gatekeeping about this character. You will need a lot of actual effort to gain their acceptance.
Blizzardboy said:
As far as the Native American part: there is a desire for more representation of Native Americans, but it isn't heard about as frequently to some extent because of numbers: around 1% of the country is Native, or around 2% identify as mixed Native.
Yet they have as much right (or maybe even greater becasue their ancestral homeland was literally taken from them) to voice the need for their representation, which is systematically ignored or simply diminished...
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted August 23, 2020 01:39 PM |
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Edited by artu at 13:40, 23 Aug 2020.
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Btw, I got curious if the Greek god Pan was ever feminized like his image sequel, the devil, but the evidence is on the contrary!
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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bloodsucker
Legendary Hero
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posted August 23, 2020 01:46 PM |
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blob2 said:
Yet they have as much right (or maybe even greater becasue their ancestral homeland was literally taken from them) to voice the need for their representation, which is systematically ignored or simply diminished...
Poor Blizz, he is so brainwashed he will kneel before blacks or make a formal complaint about thumbs being yellow but fiercely defend the right of justify movie corporations to disregard minorities, if there isn't a way to cash in from them. And he probably does it without even seeing the contradiction.
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted August 23, 2020 01:54 PM |
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That’s not fair, he didn’t fiercly defend anything. He just explained the situation. Giving the reasons for something doesnt necessarily mean you support those reasons.
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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bloodsucker
Legendary Hero
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posted August 23, 2020 02:06 PM |
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Right, it was my time to mischaracterize someone... Sorry, Blizz. I'll catch you next time.
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blob2
Undefeatable Hero
Blob-Ohmos the Second
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posted August 23, 2020 02:49 PM |
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Edited by blob2 at 14:53, 23 Aug 2020.
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I understand what Blizzardboy had in mind and it's unfortunately so - Natives do not have the "punitive force" to break through with their compalints (nor are they agressive with it as they seemingly prefer more peaceful solutions).
But USA, being the paragon of social justice, or at least how it exhibits itself through the mouths of influental people, has a moral duty to right the wrongs for every part of their ethnic composition, not "cherry-pick" the ones that are easier to amount to. I've heard somewhere that becasue the transgressions are so much more material, politicians steer clear from solving the Native disputes becasue otherwise they would need to repay so much more then even Afro-Americans imply for themselves...
And on a more "mundane" and general level, it seems artist also prefer to steer clear from depicting Natives in comics, movies etc...
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted August 23, 2020 03:28 PM |
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Edited by artu at 15:30, 23 Aug 2020.
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I think he means “out of sight, out of mind.” We have a similar proverb meaning “one who’s out of sight, ends up out of the heart.” According to what I understand from his description, rather than preferring peaceful solutions, natives are simply much less interested in becoming part of mainstream popular culture. They’d rather be left alone in their own land, living their own lives. So they apply no pressure for such a goal. Not as much, but Chinese community in the U.S. can also be seen as an example of a more introvert culture for instance. At least, that’s what it looks like from here.
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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