|
| Thread: Trump campaign's lawsuits dropped in 4 States |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 · «PREV / NEXT» |
|
Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
|
posted December 04, 2020 05:49 PM |
|
|
@Gnomes, haven't read what you've wrote because no time right now but at least kudos for making the effort. Would've been nice to see what artu will answer but he used you as a convenient cover.  Will have a look if I find the time during the weekend.
@JJ, I see you're objective as ever but try not to burst any blood vessels over this Trump thing. One scenario is that you'll have your not-Trump in the White House in less than 2 months from now and we'll all see how well he fares. Unlike you, I have little doubt that things will go (rather keep going) sour worldwide pretty soon after - just like they will with Trump at the helm, but with different main targets.
|
|
JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted December 04, 2020 06:00 PM |
|
|
|
What has that to do with anything? I don't even know what you mean.
|
|
Corribus
Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
|
|
posted December 04, 2020 06:14 PM |
|
Edited by Corribus at 18:22, 04 Dec 2020.
|
@fred
I have never argued that our elections are free of fraud. Of course there is fraud. There always has been fraud, and there always will be fraud. I don't even discount the possibility that there was fraud on a scale large enough to affect the results of the election. Of course it's possible. Anything is possible.
But the burden of proof in this country is on the accuser, not on the accused. If there is evidence, bring it forward to a court of law and let it be judged. If it is judged to be credible and a judgement is rendered based on that evidence that votes should be discounted and the election results overturned, then I will be the first to line up and support such a judgment. That's how a country based on democratic institutions works: you file a lawsuit, you present your evidence before a judge or jury of your peers, they consider the evidence according to a legal standard, they render a decision, and we the people abide by it. It's not perfect. Fraud happens. Cheaters cheat. Crimes slip through. But the system nevertheless works well. We can tell it works well because countries based on the system are the most prosperous in the world, a world with less violence and more opportunity than at any other point in history.
The difference between you and me, fred, is that I trust the system and you don't. By "the system", I am referring to our system of evidence-based laws and a government made of checks and balances. Don't get me wrong, I am not so naive to think that there isn't corruption or crime. Of course there is, and this administration isn't the first to show it. But I think the system works despite the corruption because it's designed specifically by people who understood the relationship between power and corruption.
You call yourself a patriot, but the original patriots created the system that you disdain and say can't be trusted. I can sit here and shoot down every piece of so-called evidence you show me based on logic and factual analysis, but I know it doesn't make a difference because your fundamental interest has nothing to do with actually weighing evidence according to standards of proof. Evidence for you is just a vehicle to reinforce your predetermined notions that the system can't be trusted. I can point to the courts rejecting your evidence, and you are incredulous, and your incredulity doesn't stem from belief in the evidence you present on any kind of analytical grounds: it stems from the fact that you think the system itself is corrupt. And anyone who rejects your evidence is just part of the corrupt system. You don't even consider the merits of the argument, so why make the argument in the first place? No scientific discussion about evidence is possible when you attach prejudice and malintent to any kind of analytical argument that runs counter to your conclusions that were made long before the election even happened.
But the thing is, fred, you gotta have some kind of system. Otherwise it's just anarchy. Your words imply to mean that you want some kind of violent overthrow of the current system. I don't find that patriotic. In fact, I find that to be the antithesis of patriotism. Far more patriotic to fight peacefully to make the system better. But forget that, again it's just semantics. We can each define patriotism as we see fit, and we'll get nowhere arguing over who is the patriot and who isn't.
So let me ask you a different question. Say you overthrow the system. What will you replace it with? What system would be trustworthy for you? How would your system be better than the one we have now? How would it ensure freedom for everyone? How would it prevent corruption? How would it ensure a free and fraud-free election? How would it make you happy? Do you view authoritarianism as an attractive alternative to democracy? You call yourself a patriot, which I would think at least means you believe in principles of liberty and justice as established in the US Constitution. What system in your mind would eliminate the problems we currently have but still protect those sacred ideas? Have you thought at all about this, or is it just burn the barn down and worry about what comes next later?
____________
I'm sick of following my dreams. I'm just going to ask them where they're goin', and hook up with them later. -Mitch Hedberg
|
|
fred79
Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted December 04, 2020 06:24 PM |
|
|
before i read ALL of that, do you really believe the courts in the states that had evidence against them of fraud, would ever side with their accusers and admit there was fraud? in states where fraud was shown?
help me wrap my brain around this line of thought you have. if someone's hand could be deniably argued to NOT be in the cookie jar when caught, you don't think they'd do that?
now, tie that into a GLOBAL effort, where a NETWORK of people committed fraud. you think ONE of them are going to throw it for ALL of them?
they've already shown their character having even COMMITTED the fraud, and you think they are going to tell the TRUTH?
after ALL of the verifiable evidence points to fraud?
|
|
Blizzardboy
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Nerf Herder
|
|
posted December 04, 2020 06:33 PM |
|
|
fred79 said:
before i read ALL of that, do you really believe the courts in the states that had evidence against them of fraud, would ever side with their accusers and admit there was fraud? in states where fraud was shown?
help me wrap my brain around this line of thought you have. if someone's hand could be deniably argued to NOT be in the cookie jar when caught, you don't think they'd do that?
now, tie that into a GLOBAL effort, where a NETWORK of people committed fraud. you think ONE of them are going to throw it for ALL of them?
they've already shown their character having even COMMITTED the fraud, and you think they are going to tell the TRUTH?
after ALL of the verifiable evidence points to fraud?
No. This is all wrong. At least as far as PA is concerned, the Republican commissioner in PA in Philadelphia confirmed the integrity of the process.
Judges are not part of a globalist collective and at any rate if their judgment was obviously faulty then that is the whole point of appealing to the higher courts. It would also put their positions in serious jeopardy if they ever did that.
You should find some people to connect with as soon as it is convenient. Find some things to do that are new and challenging but that are also enjoyable. It isn't my business how many of your family members you're not talking to, but if there are a few you can still talk to, what is the worst that can happen from making a call? What do you got to lose?
____________
"Folks, I don't trust children. They're here to replace us."
|
|
fred79
Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted December 04, 2020 06:39 PM |
|
|
|
i know you think 70 million+ people need help, but we're not the ones who need it.
|
|
Blizzardboy
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Nerf Herder
|
|
posted December 04, 2020 06:46 PM |
|
|
fred79 said:
i know you think 70 million+ people need help, but we're not the ones who need it.
No, not necessarily, but you've said things that sound pretty bleak and isolated and miserable. Giving unsolicited advice to you gives me slim to none chances, but I'd rather say something than nothing.
____________
"Folks, I don't trust children. They're here to replace us."
|
|
fred79
Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted December 04, 2020 07:04 PM |
|
|
|
just wait. that outlook that you think stems from insanity, will reach you as well. you don't know what's coming, because you misunderstand the people you have faith in.
|
|
JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted December 04, 2020 07:49 PM |
|
|
|
Doesn't it bother you in the least that you use the same arguments and rhethorics than the German fascists?
|
|
fred79
Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted December 04, 2020 07:59 PM |
|
|
|
a pro-globalist, comparing a patriot to a nazi. that's rich.
|
|
artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
|
|
posted December 04, 2020 08:21 PM |
|
|
Fred, if so many people tell you, you are stuck and clueless, and this includes people who are closer to you in terms of political spectrum such as Sal and Kip, dont you think it would be a good idea to doubt yourself before accusing everybody of detachment from reality. I mean, neither Sal or Kip directly said that to you, but I know you have “people skills” enough to detect they made it clear that what they hold as an opinion is of course not “what fred says.” What does that tell you?
____________
Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
|
|
JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted December 04, 2020 08:22 PM |
|
|
|
It seems, you have no idea about nazis, because they were patriots. Fervently so.
|
|
Corribus
Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
|
|
posted December 04, 2020 09:44 PM |
|
|
Thread cleaned. I'll silence the both of you if I have to. Try to keep it civil.
____________
I'm sick of following my dreams. I'm just going to ask them where they're goin', and hook up with them later. -Mitch Hedberg
|
|
fred79
Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted December 04, 2020 09:47 PM |
|
Edited by fred79 at 21:47, 04 Dec 2020.
|
|
how was i not keeping it civil? and why is jj's last post allowed to remain, but not my response to it?
|
|
JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted December 04, 2020 09:53 PM |
|
|
I'm not prepared to let that go so easily.
I repeat, this is what fred said:
Quote:
now, you'll know the supreme court is corrupt as well, if they don't invalidate the election. at that point, Trump will actually have to go above and beyond. he has millions behind him, who all want the corruption and globalist bs erradicated.
That says: if we don't get the power by legal means, we'll take it by illegal means (force) to finally "eradicate" whaat stands in our way.
That is not only slightly fascist - it is the full package.
Let me tell you, that the word "eradicated" is certainly summoning a couple of really bad spectres.
I mean, isn't this a call to take over power by force? To civil war?
|
|
Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
|
|
posted December 04, 2020 09:56 PM |
|
|
fred79 said:
before i read ALL of that
Hint: Maybe read BEFORE replying...
Blizzardboy said:
there are other mods here that can step in and moderate this particular thread besides you.
Call me and I'll just do a penalty spree. 
Be grateful to Cor here. 
____________
|
|
artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
|
|
posted December 04, 2020 10:01 PM |
|
Edited by artu at 22:02, 04 Dec 2020.
|
Zenofex said:
@Gnomes, haven't read what you've wrote because no time right now but at least kudos for making the effort. Would've been nice to see what artu will answer but he used you as a convenient cover. Will have a look if I find the time during the weekend.
Sorry, I just noticed this while reading through the whole thing again. First comment of the new page gets skipped a lot.
So, what convenient cover? I told you about countermeasures to fraud, too many parties checking each other out and so on like a month ago and Gnomes’ answer is a much better composed verification of the same thing. I mean, I admire the stamina and level of local details put into it but it’s pretty much the same common sense. Why should I write the obvious again, when it has already been written. This is not some poetry contest where we’ll all have our own signature, it is simple to the point of dull. You presume it is intellectually dishonest to compare moonlanding conspiracies to this “new” conspiracy but it is not. Common sense, and no, not common sense as in “this is what everybody believes” but common sense as in Occam’s Razor, applies the same to both cases: Too many people had to be involved in a hoax in which too many people cant be involved. You still try to tune things like there is a symmetry, a “this or that” but there really isnt and ignoring that is not “not being skeptical,” it is being “not mystical.” Have the time, read the details in your weekend, they should not have been necessarily spelled out to you, is my point, it’s like explaining why flat earthers are wrong.
@fred
Okay fred, let’s see your half of the country after the fuss blows over. See you in five months. I’m not going to say “I dont like to say I told you so but...” I’m more of a “I enjoy this particular moment in which I say I told you so” kind of guy.
____________
Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
|
|
fred79
Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted December 04, 2020 10:05 PM |
|
|
if cor hadn't deleted my reply, the answer to jj's further provocation would have remained.
the rest of you attempting to provoke me, i hope you realize how transparent you are. your kind will resort to anything to get their way.
|
|
JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted December 04, 2020 10:17 PM |
|
|
|
You were the one who threatened to eradicate the "globalist bs".
|
|
Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
|
|
posted December 04, 2020 10:23 PM |
|
|
Probably those who voted for Trump would want to know if fraud was committed, - there are some fraud antecedents when you look back in time at previous elections.
Now, on the fact that they would support Trump refusing the loss even if fraud figures are insufficient to change the results, there is no evidence. I see no major or minor republican representative suggesting that, Trump included. Or blogger, alternative medias etc. He should be allowed to exhaust all legal possibilities, then move on.
All this fuss is well-oiled, when there is not enough fascist behavior supply, let's just pretend there is one. Well, no.
|
|
|
|
