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| Thread: Heroes 4 Ultimate - Prerelease liberated |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 · «PREV |
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boho
Hired Hero
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posted June 24, 2021 09:18 PM |
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Edited by boho at 20:05, 28 Jun 2021.
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BrucknerHun said:
Sorry for copying your style, pls dont get offended boho!
You'll be hearing from my lawyers soon. 
I promised Creature Portal so I should knock those out. Which is obviously more important than, say, working.
Hopping right into it...
Nature Summons/Create Portal Critters
Equilibris added abilities to some Elementals, so I'll put an (e) next to those.
Tier 1
See Nature writeup for Sprites and Wolves. Leprechauns are actually a Tier 2 spell now, so I'll address them there.
Tier 2
* Leprechaun (Recolor Recommended)
Fortune
+Block
Block is a horrible, no-good, very bad ability... that on the statistical wimp of the Leprechaun is actually not that bad. When they fail to block, they're probably dead. The only potential problem I see is early early game creeping with a stack of Leprechauns that are sub-divided into multiple stacks. But if the Leprechaun's XP value and such has been boosted so they count as a Tier 2 creature when the map spawns static monsters, it shouldn't be awful.
As a Tier 2 summon I think it's fine. The conditions required to make the potential cheese of Leprechaun spam would make a dozen other, more effective strategies work - assuming, of course, Leprechauns haven't been statistically buffed.
* Satyr
Mirth
+Regeneration
Satyrs gain Regeneration, which seems arbitrary flavor-wise. It basically just makes them a slightly less mediocre - but still mediocre - tank. A bit more obnoxious in early creeping, I guess? I see no reason to actually take these unless they've changed statistically.
As a summon it's pretty much the same story, they're strictly inferior to White Tigers in their role unless you really need Mirth.
Tier 3
* Air Elemental
Elemental Immunities
Flying
Insubstantial
-(e)Negate First Strike
+First Strike
The Air Elemental's selling point is Insubstantial, which, especially with their speed, turned them into the best tank option of the Elementals. Equilibris threw in Negate First Strike to further solidify (ha) their role as tanks, and Ultimate takes it a step even further with straight up First Strike, substantially boosting both their offensive and defensive abilities.
Honestly, First Strike is probably a step too far. Going from a Tank/Disrupter to an all-purpose unit is definitely against the spirit of the specialist Elementals. I'd stick with Equlibris's NFS.
* Earth Elemental (Recolor Recommended)
Elemental Immunities
-(e)Teleport
+Ranged
+Stone Skin
+Normal Melee
?Magic Resistance
It's a shame they lose Teleport, but it's probably a necessary evil since I'm not sure how hard (or ethical) it'd be to re-use Equilibris's animation. Of course, they're Ranged now, so Teleport isn't as critical to their use. They also pick up Stone Skin (curious what their skin was made of before...) and Normal Melee. So, generally more useful Fire Elementals.
It's hard to judge this without the stats because their role has changed so radically. Assuming the stats are similar to Fire Elementals, sure, why not.
As for Magic Resistance, it's impossible to tell from looking at an ability list since "Magic Resistance" is a dummy ability only used to indicate "look at its MR." "Actual" MR is in the unit stats.
* Fire Elemental (Recolor Recommended)
Elemental Immunities
Fire Resistance
-Fire Attack
-Ranged
+Fire Shield
+Breath Attack
By and large, Fire Elemental abilities "make sense" for a melee creature made of fire. Hopefully their health and melee defense has gotten turned down to compensate for their new far more useful powers.
* Water Elemental (Recolor Recommended)
Elemental Immunities
Cold Attack
Cold Resistance
-Spellcaster
+Unlimited Retaliation
Nerfed hard - and arguably rightly so - the most obnoxious elemental is now just another walking Griffin, and their performance depends entirely on their stats. If they haven't changed, they're worthless.
Unlimited Retaliation is over-used in this mod, and Nature can already just summon or buy Griffins at the exact same tier. I think Freezing Attack would be an obvious choice for a replacement.
Elementals Overall
It's not what I expected, but overall the rework is fine. The crappy ones are generally more powerful across the board and Water was nerfed.
Water lost its identity in the process though, and Air, even with just NFS, is probably still too good, so let me make a suggestion: Give Air First Strike, but move Insubstantial to Water. Water becomes a proper walker tank and you don't have a fast flier wandering around with double the defense of everybody else.
* Waspwort
Ranged
-Weakness
+Regeneration
+Binding
Ah yes, the venus fly... stalk? Tree? Creature Portal already felt like a place they dumped all the creatures from half-finished towns and the curious case of the Waspwort really brings that feeling home.
edit: It's a ranged with BIND, which is unique, and kind of neat. First, it's worth spelling out that Binding only works in melee - it won't (well, shouldn't) apply to ranged attacks. This turns the Waspwort into a kind of living wall of brambles ready to capture and hold anything that tries to rip it down with regular attacks, and then regenerate through any incomplete attacks.
My thoughts on this are it's mostly fine, though I hope damage output has been tuned down a bit to compensate. They're basically more effective Dendroids - unlike Dendroids, which had to chase down the target you wanted to hold, Waspworts just do full-damage shots until they're engaged in melee, where their damage plummets and their tank role begins.
A more meta consideration is how the AI loves to harass Ranged units - meaning Waspworts will often draw attacks simply by standing there.
Like Dendroids, they're glacially slow, and thus quite ineffective for exploration. It also makes them pretty weak on the offensive unless you have a plan to get them into position. This makes them an ideal Summon - call them as needed, but leave the real ones back home on towers and behind walls.
Overall I think it's a well-balanced unit on paper, though I'd hope offense was turned down without any other changes to stats.
Tier 4
* Mantis
Flying
First Strike
-Binding
+Negate First Strike
+Block
I hate it. 0/10.
Please don't give Block to a summonable Tier freakin' Four. Better yet, don't give anything Block. It's inoffensive on meme Leprechauns, but it's already infuriating on a Tier 2 minotaur. Now imagine it on the already-great Tier 4 Mantis.
No, no, and no.
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thGryphn
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted June 24, 2021 09:39 PM |
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Yeah, agreed on the Block. Hateful ability. I had liked Binding on the Mantis. Why change?
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NimoStar
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Modding the Unmoddable
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posted June 25, 2021 04:43 AM |
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Edited by NimoStar at 11:34, 25 Jun 2021.
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Well, Binding is now used on Waspworts, and I didn't want to repeat the same ability twice on two consecutive Portal creatures.
Waspworts needed to be more interesting and coudn't have Weakness, since Nymphs (Sprites) have that now.
This is also a thrownback to H3 since Waspworts are kind of like the "Spiritual Sucessors" to Dendroids.
Then again, waspworts look weird, and I don't like them much, so perhaps I will switch them for some actual Ents, when PNG mass edit is available (if ever).
About the block,
I will consider doing some other unit ability, BUT it isn't completely arbitrary as you may think; Mantis are masters of eastern martial arts!
The Praying Mantis Kung Fu style is based on efficient blocking
Anyways, you won't see mantises *too* often... There are 5 level 5 Nature spells now, summoning Fading Dragons is mostly better, and mantises from Creature Portal as always are slow and expensive to get.
* Note Block doesn't protect against spells, and now every magic has access to direct damage.
Note 2: If I had access to more abilities I would make Mantises start with Bless since they are PRAYING 
Note 3 (PS): Would you be happier if I changed Summon Mantis for Summon Gargantuan? After all the Mantis already appears normally in the Portal, while the Gargantuan doesn't appear anywhere...
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Never changing = never improving
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iliveinabox05
Honorable
Famous Hero
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posted June 25, 2021 04:14 PM |
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NimoStar said:
Then again, waspworts look weird, and I don't like them much, so perhaps I will switch them for some actual Ents, when PNG mass edit is available (if ever).
Don't worry man, it will get implemented 
As I said in one of the other threads, I have a couple of missed deadlines, one of which I completed yesterday. Just need to finish the second and then I'll be back to Resource Editor stuff.
It probably won't get done super fast, as I need to overhaul the code that visits the resource nodes since at the moment I'm copying and pasting code, which is bad.
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thGryphn
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted June 25, 2021 06:06 PM |
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NimoStar said:
Well, Binding is now used on Waspworts, and I didn't want to repeat the same ability twice on two consecutive Portal creatures.
Waspworts needed to be more interesting and coudn't have Weakness, since Nymphs (Sprites) have that now.
This is also a thrownback to H3 since Waspworts are kind of like the "Spiritual Sucessors" to Dendroids.
Then again, waspworts look weird, and I don't like them much, so perhaps I will switch them for some actual Ents, when PNG mass edit is available (if ever).
About the block,
I will consider doing some other unit ability, BUT it isn't completely arbitrary as you may think; Mantis are masters of eastern martial arts!
The Praying Mantis Kung Fu style is based on efficient blocking
Anyways, you won't see mantises *too* often... There are 5 level 5 Nature spells now, summoning Fading Dragons is mostly better, and mantises from Creature Portal as always are slow and expensive to get.
* Note Block doesn't protect against spells, and now every magic has access to direct damage.
Note 2: If I had access to more abilities I would make Mantises start with Bless since they are PRAYING
Note 3 (PS): Would you be happier if I changed Summon Mantis for Summon Gargantuan? After all the Mantis already appears normally in the Portal, while the Gargantuan doesn't appear anywhere...
I thought Waspworts had blinding, not binding.
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NimoStar
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Modding the Unmoddable
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posted June 25, 2021 07:43 PM |
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Edited by NimoStar at 23:49, 28 Jun 2021.
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Quote:
Don't worry man, it will get implemented
Good to hear! Good luck with the deadlines.
Quote:
I thought Waspworts had blinding, not binding.
They have Binding, Unicorns have Blinding. I don't like to repeat status-applying abilities within the same faction. The more variety the better. Thing with waspworts is that they would bind with their vines.
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Never changing = never improving
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boho
Hired Hero
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posted June 28, 2021 04:44 PM |
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Edited by boho at 20:08, 28 Jun 2021.
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thGryphn said:
NimoStar said:
Well, Binding is now used on Waspworts, and I didn't want to repeat the same ability twice on two consecutive Portal creatures.
Waspworts needed to be more interesting and coudn't have Weakness, since Nymphs (Sprites) have that now.
This is also a thrownback to H3 since Waspworts are kind of like the "Spiritual Sucessors" to Dendroids.
Then again, waspworts look weird, and I don't like them much, so perhaps I will switch them for some actual Ents, when PNG mass edit is available (if ever).
About the block,
I will consider doing some other unit ability, BUT it isn't completely arbitrary as you may think; Mantis are masters of eastern martial arts!
[url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TTyo56rjdAg]The Praying Mantis Kung Fu style is based on efficient blocking[/url]
Anyways, you won't see mantises *too* often... There are 5 level 5 Nature spells now, summoning Fading Dragons is mostly better, and mantises from Creature Portal as always are slow and expensive to get.
* Note Block doesn't protect against spells, and now every magic has access to direct damage.
Note 2: If I had access to more abilities I would make Mantises start with Bless since they are PRAYING
Note 3 (PS): Would you be happier if I changed Summon Mantis for Summon Gargantuan? After all the Mantis already appears normally in the Portal, while the Gargantuan doesn't appear anywhere...
I thought Waspworts had blinding, not binding.
It's Binding. I mis-read it. Post and analysis updated to account for my mistake.
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boho
Hired Hero
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posted June 30, 2021 10:58 PM |
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I've recently finished Order and Death, so while they're still fresh in my mind, let's talk.
First up is Order - what a slog of a campaign, and by far the worst of the original release in every aspect, from writing to design. I made the mistake of playing it on Advanced which turned some of the "RPG" maps an absolute swarm of neutrals. The AI heros' corpses were stacked like wood in places, and almost every encounter boiled down to abusing the same few Order spells over and over and over. So I'll admit I'm biased against Order as a nation and especially a magic school as a result.
STANDARD LEGAL DISCLAIMER
I haven't taken a dive into stat comparisons since, being a pre-release, those aren't clearly documented anywhere yet (and I didn't want to do screenshot-by-screenshot comparisons). These opinions are based solely on the abilities that were changed, and assume stat values stayed the same as Equilibris. Note we know for a fact they didn't stay exactly the same, so keep that in mind while reading.
For ease of reading I'll use the following symbols:
+: Creature gained this ability.
-: Creature lost this ability.
(e): Creature has/had this ability in Equilibris.
(No symbol): Creature kept this ability from vanilla.
?: Dude idk
Tier 1
* Dwarf
Magic Resistance
+Strikes Twice
+Chaos Ward
aka slow boi, it's the arrow catcher/HP blob you're required to carry around til you can field Gold Golems or ideally Nagas. While I had a totally unfounded love of (upgraded) Dwarves in Heroes 3, I hate these little snows in 4.
They become mini-Crusaders in Ultimate, and I'm ambivalent about it. Strikes Twice isn't bad. It gives them a bit more of a bite in those rare and usually only early cases that they make it to a target (or a target makes it to them) before the fight is over. However, with how common Strikes/Shoots Twice already is in the mod, it's kind of boring.
I'm not a big fan of Chaos Ward on them. Wards are a strange design space as innates, being either extremely useful or completely worthless depending on the encounter and map. This makes them good as flavor options for higher tier units, but on low tier units - especially Tier 1s, where you always get both choices - it's not so innocuous. Dwarves are already quite effective against Chaos with their innate Magic Resistance (unique in the Tier 1's) and Chaos's already laser-focus on just blowing things up with magic, so adding Chaos Ward on top seems a little much. Especially when they're likely encounters during early exploration and creeping. I'd save those type of hard counters for at least Tier 3.
Bascially, they're not much more fun to use (you always get dwarves so there's no strategic choice, and innate wards require no immediate input and produce no immediate output, so there's barely any tactical choice) but they're extremely punitive to fight against if you're playing Chaos. I feel it's one of those well-intentioned but net negative changes that just results in more net frustration.
* Halfling
Ranged
Giant Slayer
?Ranged Giant Slayer
+Stealth
Halflings are the kid whose parents forced them onto a the football team in order to socialize. He just kind of goes through the motions, does the minimum, and doesn't really care. But sometimes, against a really difficult opponent, his general mediocrity and lack of engagement plays to his advantage - while the rest of his team is shaken, he just continues to go through the motions. Suddenly, bam, he's scored.
What I'm trying to say is Halflings suck, but in very specific cases (against Tier 4s with bad Ranged Defense), overperform all the way into adequacy. Sometimes.
They've picked up Stealth, but outside of taking the Ring to Mount Doom, it won't have any effect. You're probably already using them in one-stacks as cheap scouts, and, well, I guess they're slightly better at that now. If for some reason you're struggling with the mighty Heroes 4 AI, you could also exploit the Stealth protection feature that forces the AI to sit in their town if you have a stealthed unit nearby they can't see. Fun!
Note the ? is because the file lists both Giant Slayer and Ranged Giant Slayer. I'm not sure if this acts as double Slayer, but I assume not. Giant Slayer encompasses both Ranged and Melee Giant Slayer, so I hope it's just redundant.
Tier 1 Overall
Not much has changed here, outside of adding a difficulty spike for early Chaos v Order fights (or early Chaos exploration that runs into Dwarves). You'll probably still hate both of these units but use them anyway.
Tier 2
* Gold Golem
Mechanical
Magic Resistance
+Magic Mirror
+Stone Skin
The Gold Golem was already good early, though it fell off in the later game due to its low speed and movement and general traffic jam problem Order creates for itself. It picks up Magic Mirror to punish Mass spells, which would add to its late game viability, but for some reason also gets Stone Skin, making it an even better early tank.
Assuming stats are the same, a net buff. Magic Mirror I get, but Stone Skin could be a little much when considering the early game. Would definitely require some testing against the new rosters.
* Mage (Recolor + Rename Recommended)
-Spellcaster
+Ranged
+Ignore Wards
+Aging
+Hypnotize
The long-term Tier 2 option has returned to its roots, likely because they're forced to lose their stronger Equilibris spells.
It's hard to comment on their current status without seeing stats. Note Aging is melee-only, but Hypnotize is not documented one way or another. I assume Nimo can tell us. If Hypnotize is also melee-only, they're probably fine as long as their stats are balanced out. I'd hope they'd keep their paper bag defenses and get high damage instead of boosting their defenses for OK damage, but that's just me.
Tier 2 Overall
Interesting changes that I actually like. Mages and Genies always felt redundant to me and deploying both was often an exercise in tedium of popping in and out of spellbooks. Golems' Magic Mirror leans harder into their anti-magic role, which won't matter early on but means they're not just arrow-catchers by the time the later game rolls around.
Tier 3
* Naga
-No Retaliation
+(e)Triple Headed Attack
+Block
Block is not a fun ability to play with or play against and is a net negative to gameplay. Say no to Block.
Otherwise they keep their Triple Headed Attack from Equilibris, but lose No Retaliation from Vanilla.
I'd either keep them as Greater Cerberi (Triple-Headed Attack + No Retal) per Equilibris or look at Triple Attack (Attacks Twice + Extra Attack) with nothing else.
* Genie (Recolor Recommended)
Flying
-Spellcaster
+Freezing Attack
+Cold Attack
+Blind Immunity
Another former Equilibris spellbook recipient, it looks like Genies were reworked to be more like Ice Efreeti. I'm not sure where Blind Immunity comes from, but it's there too.
It's a major rework and turns Order's only flying unit into a more traditional flier. While in a vacuum that's welcome - I always found Genies both tedious to use and play against - I worry about town identity being lost, which is a persistent concern I have with this mod.
Tier 3 Overall
Nagas need a redesign as Block is untenable. I'm not exaggerating when I say it shouldn't be in the game past the Leprechaun.
The Genie is fine but boring. It fits too neatly thematically (Chaos/red/fire - Order/blue/ice) and corrects an intentional absence in the Order roster, which is kind of like giving Necropolis a shooter in Tier 1.
Tier 4
* Titan
Ranged
+Lightning Attack
+Berserker
-Normal Melee
-Chaos Ward
While it was stated that the Titan was given Berserker to simulate Mind Immunity, Berserker as a mechanic makes absolutely no sense in context of a faction named Order. It also renders a Tier 4 unit totally uncontrollable by the player who spent all those resources - and their ultimate unit choice - to get. While done with the best of intentions, this makes the unit unusable.
Berserker exists for two reasons: first as a negative status effect, and in its more "positive" form that at least doesn't attack friendlies, to nerf Berserkers, which are statistically too good for a Tier 1 unit. On Cyclops it's interesting, because in vanilla Cyclops are leaps and bounds better than Ogre Magi to the extent that it's a non-choice. Equilibris attempted to address this by giving Ogre Magi a spellbook, and their expanded utility makes the choice more competitive. Since that's not an option here, something else had to be done, and thus Berserker becomes a valid option.
So first, Berserker has to go to make this unit useable. I think the most practical substitution to accomplish what you want is to make the Titan Mechanical. Lore-wise it could actually be pretty cool, and it should give you most of what you're going for. Undead also works, but is obviously its own mess. Finally there are the consolation prize options of Order Ward (doesn't make sense but it's less offensive) and Blind Immunity (decent, but it doesn't stop Forgetfulness, which would hurt unless they get Normal Melee back). While we're on the subject, why'd you remove Normal Melee? It's been with Titans since HoMM2.
I like Lightning Attack. It's great thematically/flavor-wise and adds some desperately needed sizzle to the Titan steak. Since it scales off raw number of units it's not massively impactful, which is probably fine - while I'm not a personally one to use Titans, they're perfectly good units as-is.
* Dragon Golem
Mechanical
-First Strike
-Negate First Strike
+Strikes Twice
My personal preference, though with Ultimate changes that'd probably no longer be the case (assuming Titan lost Berserker).
I've said it before, but Strikes Twice is overused in this mod. Granted, so is First Strike and Negate First Strike.
Strikes Twice isn't exciting in Ultimate. Of course Strikes Twice on a Tier 4 is very different than on a Tier 1, but it doesn't pique anybody's interest. Every Tier 4 unit had some unique mechanic you didn't see anywhere else. And while the Dragon Golem didn't have a fancy unique ability name for it, it was the only combination of FS+NFS a combo probably worthy of its own unique ability name (unlike some of them... looking at you, Strength) in the game. Truly, a missed opportunity for a Shadowrun reference by not rolling these up into "Wired Reflexes." But I digress.
It's a boring "safe pick" unit, which hurts doubly so because the Titan was already the most boring "safe pick" ultimate unit in Heroes.
Tier 4 Overall
Pretty bad, and much worse than before. Titans should flatly not be used as long as they have Berserker, so you're left with Dragon Golem, which is less tactical than your Tier 1 fodder unit. Yay.
Order Overall
Order's a tough town. I think by now we're all in agreement that Order Magic is grossly overpowered, and it's impossible to look at Order the town without keeping Order the magic in the back of your mind. As a result, Order's units have always felt weaker than other towns - maybe because Order Magic is constantly doing all the heavy lifting and the units often just seem to be in the way, maybe because Tactics is less a priority when Order Magic is so overwhelmingly good, or maybe intentionally, by design, to feel more like a Mage town. I'm of the opinion it's the last one (crappy Tier 1s, two fragile casting-enabled units across different tiers, straightforward meat and potatoes Tier 4's), but I can't discount the role of the first two.
So, with that in mind, there are some good ideas for making the town more fun to play in here, but overall this is probably the weakest rework yet. The ball definitely got dropped with Tier 4 and somewhat with Tiers 1 and 3, and I worry it's because you've painted yourself into a corner design-wise by showering everything else in abilities to make things feel new.
My unsolicited advice is to butcher Nature and regain some design space. Nature is absurdly overdesigned - going over the list, only two non-portal creatures, Sprites and Faerie Dragons, even lost abilities. The rest flatly gained abilities, usually multiple ones. Portaled creatures are a little better, but not much. Abilities were grossly inflated and as a result we're seeing weaker design elsewhere.
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NimoStar
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Modding the Unmoddable
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posted July 01, 2021 04:44 AM |
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Edited by NimoStar at 05:29, 01 Jul 2021.
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First Strike, Double Strike were never "exciting". Even artifacts grants these abilities. Hell, even the default combat skills grants these abilities.
Potions grants these abilities. Spells grants these abilities.
I just made *abilities* grant these abilities themselves. Really is that so unforgivable? THis makes it into a counter game. Really negate first strike in regular H4 was essentially useless, because nearly no creature has first strike to begin with. Actually, I made a creature having first strike more meaningful too, since I removed Mass First Strike and Mass Snake Strike for other mass spells - so it really is more special, as it depends on the creature's innate abilities rather than your hero casting a buff over all.
Things to answer briefly:
* There is no order ward ability
* Lightning attack is already like no melee penalty for titans
* As said in previous pages, I already played and tested titans. Extensively. For over the whole order campaign scenarios, in fact. And they are able to beat enemies which use mechanical dragons in same numbers. Since a whole chunk of the campaign is themed around "Emilia vs Mechanical Dragons", I believe is it pretty safe to say that 10+ hours testing this dynamic is enough.
* Ranged level 4 are already OP by design.
* Titans can't be mechanical, because Mechanical Dragons are already... mechanical. For wanting more variety yet again you propose to give the two options of the same tier the same abilities, same with griffin and unicorn. What gives?
And last by not least:
* Giving more abilities is how this mod rolls. Complaining about "many abilities" will not change that. I will just add even more abilities 
And why? Well I have been limited to default ability numbers for the last 5 years in Greatest Mod. Ultimate Mod is used to exploit *creature ability plugin* that removed this limitation (up to 4). So yes. Abilities, abilities, more abilities! Freedom, at last.
But anyone can edit the json with notepad. It is plaintext. Even a kid can do it.
Indeed, unreleased v2 adds and changes plenty of abilities, such as:
* Cerberi attack thrice now. They are also fire resistant.
* Pirates don't stealth, but generate Panic.
* Monks are changed to priestess and are the only ranged unit that cast Weakness.
* Troglodytes curse.
Magic is also reworked. Order is hardly more OP than others. Phantom Image/Clone only works on enemies. Berserk is chaos. Town Gate is level 5. You are not seeing this because you aren't even playing the game, but just looking at json list. You say new Titans are unplayable, but I bet you didn't even play them. I did.
So anyways, wait for next version for "review". And play it. Then tell
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Never changing = never improving
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BrucknerHun
Hired Hero
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posted July 01, 2021 09:20 AM |
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Hello There again!!!
I disagree with boho review about the order faction, titans are still good even, if they are berserkers, and they performs really well!!
But I partly agree with, that nagas and dragon golems still needs a buff ( with more abilities, because their stats is good)
Other than that, I really love this mod so far, and this really feels like fresh air! H4 really deserved it! Thank you again NimoStar!!
But before you release the new version, here it is what needs to be buffed:
* Nagas ( just got blocking, and it is not enough I think)
* Minotaurs ( got charge, but still not as good as medusaes)
* Ogre mages ( statistically not, just a spellbook overhaul)
* Imps ( we discussed it earlier, long weapon will do it)
* Dragon golems ( maybe it need first strike, or idk)
And here are some bug reports:
1* Thunder birds as in the original, they got lighting with lighting immunity. Immunity it is not true sadly. They could get damage from other thunder birds and also from magic mirrors as well. Needs to be fixed!
2* I like those new creature like heroes, but they got the same animation sounds. Needs to be fixed soon.
3* Fire elemental moving animation sound on the map is the same as the dragon golem sound.
4* Some artifacts don't do what they have to do: Such as Spider Silk's arrow, which stated that bind enemies, but basically bind flyers. Bow of the elf king, doesnt give you plus one shot to your hero, even if they have archery or have the class ranger.
5* Ring of health is RIG of health.
That's all I have found!!
PS: I saw the recolored life faction and this is awesome!!
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NimoStar
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Modding the Unmoddable
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posted July 01, 2021 03:37 PM |
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Edited by NimoStar at 04:33, 02 Jul 2021.
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Quote:
* Ogre mages ( statistically not, just a spellbook overhaul)
* Imps ( we discussed it earlier, long weapon will do it)
Ogre Mages now have the special new Venom Pact Spell, that gives all the army the Poison Attack ability. This is instead of Bloodlust.
They also got improved statistics since they had one fo the lowest for level 3, but -1 growth to compensate since theirs was very high 5 from 6, compared to 3 cyclops. Here are the notes:
Quote:
- OGRE MAGI:
* Initiative increased by 2.
* HP decreased by 10.
* Movement increased by 5 (18 to 23).
* ATK/DEF sensibly increased.
* Growth 5 from 6
* XP increased slightly.
[Now cast Curse on attacks, ignoring magic resistance.]
Reasoning:
The Ogre Magi was underpowered in vanilla H4, acting as little more than HP balls that cast bloodlust. It is now a more versatile creature. Since Cyclops are basically immobile shooting platforms, Ogres have increased movement for offensive operations.
I disagree about naga block not being powerful enough. In my tests this ability is enough so that nagas are one of the most powerful level 3 creatures. Consider the following:
- Default Heroes 4 nagas:
* No Retaliation ONLY
- Equilibris nagas:
* 3-headed attack
- Heroes IV ULTIMATE Nagas:
* 3-headed attack
* Block
Block is one of the strongest abilities in the game and Nagas are getting it for free as an upgrade over another upgrade. I could consider switching Block for First Strike but I think Nagas will lose in this tradeoff.
Also, Genie got a huge spell point nerf, see this:
Quote:
- GENIE:
[Freezing Attack ability. Their attack is also a Cold attack. They are immune to visual attacks like blinding due to their glowy eyes.]
** That is why now you only get "three wishes" - each Genie spell costs 3 mana, and they have 9 mana in total.
** Spell power increased near 30% (for damage and create illusions).
Reasoning:
Genie powers normally dominated the battlefield... well, they can still do that, but only for a very limited time.
However, Genies are generally better in melee now, since the freezing attack lets them disable opponents.
Quote:
* Minotaurs ( got charge, but still not as good as medusaes)
You may be right, on the other hand the greatest problem with Monitaur is that it looks unarmored and underwhelming
I wish we got another minotaur sprite. When PNG edit is available, I can make it from Diablo for example. It has "hell bovines".
However, I may upgrade Minotaur stats to make it faster.
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About Titans and Dragon Golems, people in Discord have said the new Dragon Golems are OP pls nerf, here says they are underwhelming please buff, others say titans are useless, which would mean Dragon Golems are best... so until there is an unanimous opinion I will not buff Dragon Golem :v
Dragon Golem has double the offensive potential as it had before. One attack to tweo is no kidding matter, so before adding something else I would like to be sure about it. I would give it Nature Ward, except that sadly this ability (like Order Ward) doesn't exist.
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1* Thunder birds as in the original, they got lighting with lighting immunity. Immunity it is not true sadly. They could get damage from other thunder birds and also from magic mirrors as well. Needs to be fixed!
2* I like those new creature like heroes, but they got the same animation sounds. Needs to be fixed soon.
3* Fire elemental moving animation sound on the map is the same as the dragon golem sound.
4* Some artifacts don't do what they have to do: Such as Spider Silk's arrow, which stated that bind enemies, but basically bind flyers. Bow of the elf king, doesnt give you plus one shot to your hero, even if they have archery or have the class ranger.
5* Ring of health is RIG of health.
1- I know of this bug but don't know why it happens. Needs more testing. Maybe it is because Lightning is a nature spell now? In this case I need to update the description to remove the reference to immunity.
PS: No, turned out immunity is equilibris only.
2- Sadly there is no way to fix animation sounds to coincide with creature type without source code, since NWC didn't program this 
3- Really? Will test.
4- This is as in the normal, unmodded Heroes 4. Bow only gives extra attack to creatures, not to heroes. Spider Silk is just like that. Will update descriptions to clarify.
5- Was on purpose because it's no longet worn as a "ring". I will change it to "trinket" to make that more clear.
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Never changing = never improving
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boho
Hired Hero
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posted July 01, 2021 05:49 PM |
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Edited by boho at 17:54, 01 Jul 2021.
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I always forget about stupid Order Ward. We really need to reclaim one of the dud abilities and turn it into Order Ward at some point.
NimoStar said:
* Lightning attack is already like no melee penalty for titans
Well... that depends. Using vanilla values, Titans are 34-50dmg/32mAtk. Lightning Attack is a flat 30 damage. So it's better in cases where the target can take full damage from Lightning Attack (no resists) and when their mDef is at very least 33, otherwise it's worse.
Quote:
* As said in previous pages, I already played and tested titans. Extensively. For over the whole order campaign scenarios, in fact. And they are able to beat enemies which use mechanical dragons in same numbers. Since a whole chunk of the campaign is themed around "Emilia vs Mechanical Dragons", I believe is it pretty safe to say that 10+ hours testing this dynamic is enough.
It's not about performance, the problem is Berserk units aren't fun or rewarding to use because you're at the mercy of the combat AI. That's acceptable in the case of Tier 1 throwaway Berserkers and less so in the case of a major investment like a Tier 4.
Quote:
* Ranged level 4 are already OP by design.
I disagree with that in general, but especially because Heroes 4 implemented line of sight rules. To be clear I do love the LOS rules (the game board that uses them, less so...) but those rules definitely reign in ranged.
Quote:
* Titans can't be mechanical, because Mechanical Dragons are already... mechanical. For wanting more variety yet again you propose to give the two options of the same tier the same abilities, same with griffin and unicorn. What gives?
Well, it's better than Undead at least...
It's just another way to get to Mind Immunity. I don't like it either, but it beats putting Berserker on my expensive Tier 4 units.
Quote:
And last by not least:
* Giving more abilities is how this mod rolls. Complaining about "many abilities" will not change that. I will just add even more abilities
And why? Well I have been limited to default ability numbers for the last 5 years in Greatest Mod. Ultimate Mod is used to exploit *creature ability plugin* that removed this limitation (up to 4). So yes. Abilities, abilities, more abilities! Freedom, at last.
That's cool man. I've looked at this through the lens of you wanting Ultimate to be the new standard way to play Heroes 4 - you've mentioned wanting to essentially be an Equilibris killer, which is an admirable goal to set.
However, ability bonanza isn't really compatible with maintaining the original spirit of the game, which was a tenet of Equilibris's design, so you're not really competing with Equilibris anymore - you're a unique product heading more toward the WoG end of the tweak vs. total conversion mod spectrum. That's totally cool, WoG is and was wildly popular, but it's just not what I had originally expected given your description. I've been reviewing your changes through the wrong lens.
That said, some of my points still stand. Block still sucks and isn't fun in general. Berserk still sucks and isn't fun on a Tier 4. Dragon Golems are still boring - I would have bet you'd drop damage but work in the Megadragon breath attack or something. The golem already looks like it would have a flame thrower in its mouth!
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boho
Hired Hero
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posted July 01, 2021 08:27 PM |
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Edited by boho at 20:28, 01 Jul 2021.
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Let's review Death for the folks watching from home who want to know what's new. I'll try to keep the stated design goals in mind - basically, instead of considering the change in relation to maintaining the original spirit of Equilibris or Vanilla, I'll consider it in relation to the other units at its tier, especially the tier of the same town.
Anyway, Death! My personal favorite despite getting kicked in the teeth in Heroes 4. Though its magic is extremely fun to use, I don't think it's disputed that it's the worst school in vanilla. Equilibris helped by adding in some crucial spells, but it can still lag behind other schools that simply have more immediate, straightforward solutions to problems.
It also didn't help that Heroes 4 gave everybody Necromancy. Not literally of course, but Resurrection, Summoning, and Charm added three additional means of constant reinforcement in the field. Though Chaos missed the boat, in a very Chaos fashion it just does twice as much damage with their spells instead. If it first it doesn't burn, use more fire. And of course Might is Might, so you get nothing, you lose, good day sir.
Death also has the best original campaign, at least in terms of storytelling and character building. While other campaigns lean into typical tropes and cliches with eagerness and high quality writing, the Death campaign itself is arguably about the creative struggle and consequences of actively avoiding cliche. Really cool.
STANDARD LEGAL DISCLAIMER
I haven't taken a dive into stat comparisons since, being a pre-release, those aren't clearly documented anywhere yet (and I didn't want to do screenshot-by-screenshot comparisons). These opinions are based solely on the abilities that were changed, and assume stat values stayed the same as Equilibris. Note we know for a fact they didn't stay exactly the same, so keep that in mind while reading.
For ease of reading I'll use the following symbols:
+: Creature gained this ability.
-: Creature lost this ability.
(e): Creature has/had this ability in Equilibris.
(No symbol): Creature kept this ability from vanilla.
?: Dude idk
Tier 1
* Skeleton
Undead
Skeletal
No ability changes here. Honestly it's probably a good idea to keep the potential snowball of horror more reasonably horrific instead of out of control horrific.
* Imp
Flying
Mana Leech
?Long Weapon
No ability changes here... for the moment. There's talk of them getting Long Weapon in the next version, and that's not a bad idea. Otherwise they're still their jolly old scouting, mana-leeching, Sacrifice fodder selves.
Tier 1 Overall
No ability changes at this time. With Imps' low damage and the AI's love of slaughtering them, Long Weapon won't be a significant impact outside of allowing them to sometimes attack.
Tier 2
* Ghost (Recolor Recommended)
Insubstantial
Undead
-Aging
-Flying
+Life Drain
+Fear
Fear isn't my favorite ability when combined with Flying, so it's important to point out that Ghosts don't actually Fly anymore. Life Drain is generally a red flag but I think is fair in this case, considering their low HP, low damage, and loss of Flying. When you combine Life Drain with Fear and Insubstantial, they make for good skirmishers and even tanks in a pinch.
Hopefully Aging will be available as a spell because Death losing it entirely would be punitive.
They definitely need a visual change, maybe even a name change, to singal to players that Flying is gone.
* Cerberus
Triple Headed Attack
-No Retaliation
+Strikes Twice
I'm not a fan of this change. It's a big buff for Demonologists where Cerberi are be throwaway summons and the extra damage is welcome, but as a recruitable unit it was already hard to keep the fragile Cerberi alive when they had No Retaliation. Perhaps stat changes have helped in that department though.
Tier 2 Overall
On first blush I'd personally go with Ghosts simply for their staying power. The Cerberi change certainly makes Demonologist more attractive, and it was already a top pick.
Tier 3
* Vampire
Undead
Life Draining
-Flying
-No Retaliation
+Teleport
+Cold Attack
Overall a nerf unless Teleport is map-wide like Devils (and I certainly hope it isn't, that'd be too much). Teleport is better than flying, but the loss of No Retaliation means more consistent losses without babysitting. Cold Attack is a pure disability - as there's no Cold Vulnerabilitiy, all this means is Vampires are now weak to things with Cold Resistance (though Cold Resistance is rarely encountered).
This is one where I'd be curious to see stats. Vampires were nerfed in Equilibris, so if a stat profile closer to vanilla is being used, these are probably fair changes as an effort to tune them down in a different way.
Teleport makes me a little sad since we lose the absurd bat animation, but it also has the side effect of making Vampires immune to Bind Flyer, a movement cut that actually stacked with Slow. Bind Flyer was added to Order in Equilibris (I felt like it'd do better in Nature and you could have called it Web), but it was still available in vanilla via potions.
* Venom Spawn
Ranged
Poison
No ability changes.
I'd hoped you would come up with something fun for the Venom Spawn since I certainly couldn't either. It's just a great unit that doesn't need to be changed.
Tier 3 Overall
Basically just a different approach to nerf Vampires (assuming Teleport isn't map wide). My favorite native species of Axeoth was left alone.
Tier 4
* Bone Dragon
Flying
Undead
Skeletal
-Fear
+Random Harmful Spells
When I saw you moved Aging off Ghosts I figured you were re-doing these as Ghost Dragons.
I'm not a fan of Random Harmful on the big boys. It doesn't fit thematically and Death doesn't need more ways to cast the same debuffs. More importantly, Random Harmful could be moved to Ogre Magi if it's not on Bone Dragons. Might is a town that actually desperately needs it. Fear, while sometimes annoying, was generally more useful on the Bone Dragons since their high damage could either kill or functionally disable archers anyway.
While I don't think it was meant to be a nerf, it is.
* Devils
Teleport
-Summon (Ice) Demons
-Life Ward
+Long Weapon
+Fear
+Negate Mind Immunity
These guys are already on the chopping block to get nerfed and it's not hard to see why. You'd be silly to pick Bone Dragons over Devils with this lineup.
Tier 4 Overall
Devils by a landslide.
Death Overall
Well, this was easy. There were three major changes: Ghosts, Vampires, and Devils - which are already getting tuned down. Just as many creatures were totally untouched, and the remainder were tweaked.
Death is already a very robust town with compelling choices (well, maybe not Tier 2 unless you're trying for a Dark Priest Resurrection-focused build or something, idk), so it's probably appropriate that it didn't see much in the way of attention.
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NimoStar
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Modding the Unmoddable
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posted July 02, 2021 12:55 AM |
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Edited by NimoStar at 14:44, 02 Jul 2021.
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Quote:
I would have bet you'd drop damage but work in the Megadragon breath attack or something. The golem already looks like it would have a flame thrower in its mouth!
Considering that *no level 4 creature ever had strikes twice* and that *several* level 4 creatures have breath attack...
- Phoenix
- Black Dragons
- Megadragons
In max level alone...
And you say you want more variety. Anyways, I can't see a point in this demand from a rational angle. I know everyone has emotional bias.
I openly stated my emotional bias for more abilities, but saying wanting more variety and then actually wanting less variety and more of the same overused abilities in the same tiers, doesn't make sense.
Btw,
I never said I wanted to keep the original spirit of H4, I said I wanted to keep a good balance and the same towns and lineups - replacing something as a golden standard doesn't mean keeping the same. Compared to h4 Greatest Mod, keeping all the same creatures, creature choices, and towns is very conservative. Heroes 4 Greatest Mod is already "WoG".
You also say "chaos only blows things up and that makes it excessively bad against dwarves", this isn't true either because chaos has over 10 new & changed spells, none of which are direct damage. That is why you can't compare things, including abilities, without actually playing the game. That being said, I appreciate at least you have strong feelings about stuff, which shows you love H4. But you love h4 equilibris a little too much to be open to the possibility of anything being different.
See chaos magic changes showcase here!
I only added berserk on ranged units (and Megadragon, which you can't normally use anyways), and considering ranged attacks usually don't have retaliation,
berserkers don't suck as they did as a level 1 creature, from which I removed it. Had I wanted to keep everything the same, I would have left those as they were, just a level 1 unit charge suiciding enemies which can kill it in one shot. Is that really what one wants? I don't think so, the game has obvious design flaws.
And un my opinion, underusing abilities is one of them, of course.
PS: There is something, I don't like Block ability either; I think it should prevent 50% of damage only. But for now, something has to be used to buff certain creatures, and Block fits naga and mantis flavor-wise. As I said, other option is First Strike, but this:
- Doesn't provide ranged protection, while block does.
- Is already "overused".
- Fits the naga a little less since they look more blocking than offensive.
So, every available ability is used when relevant.
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Now something important:
Only 5 creatures Strike Twice in the entire Ultimate game, that's less than 1 per faction, and basically 1 per level, and only 6,8% of the 73 creatures in the game. Most abilities are used by just 2-3 creatures in total
Even then, many of these have other abilities that alter them - for example, Blind in unicorns isn't the same as Blind in angels due to and No Mind Immunity; and these are currently the only two blinding creatures). Life Drain likewise is different in Ghosts and Vampires, since the first is immaterial thus the normal defensive value is doubed and generates panic, while the second "teleports" and thus can pick units beyond obstacles and walls. And so forth. There are many possible unique combinations, abilities don't become "boring" because you see them in a text list twice. If one actually plays the game, one can see why these creatures even while sharing one ability, play very, very differently. For example Thunderbirds lightning is nothing like titan lightning, since the first will always atack in melee and the second, only rarely. Ghost Panic isn't the same as Archdevil Panic since the last one has Negate Mind Immunity meaning it can panic machines, elementals and undead. All in all, basically no funcionality is repeated. I ensured no creature shares the same ability suite with any other, and that options in tiers have different roles.
Anyways, I did change a bunch of things from this thread as you can see. Just keeping it logical changes and none "revert to equilibris!" changes.
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Never changing = never improving
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NimoStar
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Modding the Unmoddable
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posted July 04, 2021 11:55 PM |
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Novelties in abilities:
Crusader:
Boho was right, Magic Mirror may be too much for this unit. It was changed to Chaos Ward which will provide a measure of defense vs some damage spells. Plus Chaos is the one that looks more oriental than death. Deus vult?
Priestess:
Was given back Death Ward instead of Chaos Ward.
Angel:
Taken away Death Ward. Now blind attack ignores enemy magic resistance as well as mind immunity (since Unicorns no longer have this ability).
Now there is a choice in 3rd level: Will you pick the anti-death or the anti-chaos specialist? While it is logical to take Crusaders against Chaos and Priestesses against death... In the last level, there is no anti-faction specific immunity, so you aren't "forced" to take Angels against Death any more, but rather you always can choose.
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Never changing = never improving
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BrucknerHun
Hired Hero
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posted July 07, 2021 12:00 PM |
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Bugreports
So Hello there again NimoStar!!
So I’m really glad you’ll be releasing the full version of the mod right now this Friday. I'd be happy if you could put in the whole repainted red life faction. (pls release it with this, at least with an optional file)!
But before you release, there would be a couple of bug reports I would love to share. (these aren't such big bugs, but they should be fixed one day):
BugReports:
*1 Removed spells can still be found in treasure places. Like Giant strenght and mass snake strike ... etc.
*2 About treasure sites, they’ve gotten a lot better, but they’re no longer as challenging in the late game as they were in the beginning. We need to increase their growth rate!
*3 This is a very special bug, it comes when you freeze or stun an enemy with your hero, and in vain you have two attacks on GM Melee, sometimes just one hit. Sometimes you have two hits, but more often you only have one hit. Interestingly, this only happens to heroes, never to creatures.
*4 Dark Champion binding attack stays on the targets, even if they move and attack others. The bounded creature can't move, and onyl free, if the dark champions were defeated. This is not always trigger, but 50 % of the times. This should be fixed soon!
This is all, what I have found so far, thank you so much for playing the prerelease version of this mod and I am really looking forward to Friday !!! 
PS: One more question, will multiplayer be available with this mod version?
It would be great if multiplayer works with this version !!
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NimoStar
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Modding the Unmoddable
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posted July 08, 2021 12:13 AM |
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Quote:
*1 Removed spells can still be found in treasure places. Like Giant strenght and mass snake strike ... etc.
That's because those spells aren't removed at least in v1. In v2 Mass Snake Strike will be replaced, but rest assure you won't find it anywhere.
Quote:
*2 About treasure sites, they’ve gotten a lot better, but they’re no longer as challenging in the late game as they were in the beginning. We need to increase their growth rate!
I have added level 4 creatures that grow in most treasure sites, which were not present before. That being said their growth ranges from 0.01 to 0.03, so it depends on your luck or random, besides time. They need 1-3 months of growth on average to actually appear since their base pop is zero.
This reminds me griffin treasure is very boring, tho, so there will be some adjustments...
Quote:
*3 This is a very special bug, it comes when you freeze or stun an enemy with your hero, and in vain you have two attacks on GM Melee, sometimes just one hit. Sometimes you have two hits, but more often you only have one hit. Interestingly, this only happens to heroes, never to creatures.
Strange.
Quote:
*4 Dark Champion binding attack stays on the targets, even if they move and attack others. The bounded creature can't move, and onyl free, if the dark champions were defeated. This is not always trigger, but 50 % of the times. This should be fixed soon!
Very strange. Never had that happen. Are you sure about these things? Why would it happen sometimes yes and others not?
I would like to see a screenshot of the bound creature showing applied spells in the battlefield, with no Dark Champion near.
Quote:
PS: One more question, will multiplayer be available with this mod version?
It would be great if multiplayer works with this version !!
I asked many times for people to confirm this, but in theory, nothing stops multiplayer. Though I don't know about which external platforms will be compatible for LAN tunneling.
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Never changing = never improving
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BrucknerHun
Hired Hero
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posted July 09, 2021 08:13 AM |
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Discord server is ready!!!
Here is the link: https://discord.gg/RKXU23p6bb
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NimoStar
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Modding the Unmoddable
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posted July 10, 2021 05:58 AM |
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The release version is ready, I just cannot upload it yet due to my connection.
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Never changing = never improving
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