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Ben80
Famous Hero
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posted April 05, 2022 05:47 PM |
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Edited by Ben80 at 17:55, 05 Apr 2022.
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@AlexSpl
I put it in such a rude way because I already answered this question and the answer was not understood.
For this reason, there will be no further discussion on this topic on my part. The arguments of the opponents are considered by me in advance as weak (why - I have just explained)
Quoting myself:
Quote:
By the way, here is the opinion of the writer Lev Vershinin - https://putnik1.livejournal.com/
he writes - "Staging. Bloody, but what to take from the Nazis?"
(https://putnik1.livejournal.com/9004100.html)
I agree with Lev Vershinin. I suppose the official Russian propaganda has the same opinion.
People in Bucha were killed by Ukrainian Nazis - this is what orchestration is all about. I have to write this - for the very stupid.
A request to you personally - do not jump to another topic, as you like to do after my answer.
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AlexSpl
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted April 05, 2022 05:57 PM |
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Quote:
People in Bucha were killed by Ukrainian Nazis - this is what orchestration is all about. I have to write this - for the very stupid.
That would be very inhuman to do so. Why don't you consider other options? For example, people we see might be redressed in civilian clothes, dead Russian soldiers.
I just cannot understand why the international community shies (yes, I use this word on purpose) to send the investigation group to Bucha.
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Ghost
Undefeatable Hero
Therefore I am
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posted April 05, 2022 06:00 PM |
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Ben80
Famous Hero
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posted April 05, 2022 06:02 PM |
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@AlexSpl,
I allow other options, but I have no proof of any version. Therefore, I express my opinion. I was asked to explain where the bodies came from. An explanation has been provided. Whether it's true or false, I don't know for sure. But I guess that's the way it is.
No matter what someone will write here about "witnesses" or some other nonsense (in the territory where the Nazis returned) - I won't take this seriously.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted April 05, 2022 07:21 PM |
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"The Nazis".
Selenskij's family is Jewish. As such, he would be an enemy of "The Nazis".
Nazis? What about the Russian Nazis?
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Ben80
Famous Hero
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posted April 05, 2022 07:42 PM |
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Edited by Ben80 at 19:47, 05 Apr 2022.
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JollyJoker said:
"The Nazis".
Selenskij's family is Jewish. As such, he would be an enemy of "The Nazis".
So that's why many Jews despise him - because he is on the same side with the followers of Bandera (Hitler's accomplice), against whom his Jewish grandfather fought.
Nazis are not necessarily those who hate Jews. Nazis hate those who they see as a problem at the moment (or who they consider "inferior").
In Germany in the 1930s, it was the Jews who were proclaimed enemies. In today's Europe, these are Russians. Therefore, I think many Jews now understand us.
JollyJoker said:
Nazis? What about the Russian Nazis?
The problem you are talking about is rather called "Russian great-power chauvinism" (since in Russia, indeed, from time immemorial, different nations got along well together).
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ihor
Supreme Hero
Accidental Hero
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posted April 05, 2022 08:02 PM |
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@Ben
Okay, so your version is that people in Bucha were killed by Ukrainian Nazis. Good, so then the question is when? I assume your version is that after Russians left, then Ukrainians came and a) killed some guys right there or b) brought corpses and just put them on the streets.
But then at least somebody from the locals would see that, right? Because that's right on the streets. And then there were also reporters on April 2, so there would be at least one witness saying something like that.
On the other hand, there are plenty of witnesses saying the opposite, and plenty of videos were locals celebrate the return of Ukrainian army and even the video with locals and Zelensky in Bucha and also I'm not even mentioning satellite images showing corpses since March 11.
Don't you see a flaw in your logic?
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Ben80
Famous Hero
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posted April 05, 2022 08:19 PM |
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@ihor,
Excuse me for my impolite behaviour.
I just don't like to meticulously discuss such topics (in which we, ordinary people, do not have reliable information).
As far as I understand, there are many "inconsistencies" in the versions of both sides. I just do not want to discuss it (I have something to say, but there is simply no desire to repeat what different sources write).
Why don't I want to get to the bottom of the truth? Because war is a dirty business anyway. Salamander has already written here that it
is foolish to see one side completely white and the other black
(although sometimes such a temptation arises in the heat of polymism).
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ihor
Supreme Hero
Accidental Hero
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posted April 05, 2022 08:20 PM |
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AlexSpl
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted April 05, 2022 08:25 PM |
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Quote:
I just don't like to meticulously discuss such topics (in which we, ordinary people, do not have reliable information).
With that I must agree. I even think the government itself doesn't know everything. Don't you think generals have their secrets, too? Military can lie, and it will lie even to their government. So, let's see what will happen next, but I think it's already the collapse of the world I loved.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted April 05, 2022 09:35 PM |
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Ben80 said:
JollyJoker said:
"The Nazis".
Selenskij's family is Jewish. As such, he would be an enemy of "The Nazis".
So that's why many Jews despise him - because he is on the same side with the followers of Bandera (Hitler's accomplice), against whom his Jewish grandfather fought.
You are mistaking him with Yushchenko whocmade Bandera a Hero of the Ukraine in 2010.
Quote:
Nazis are not necessarily those who hate Jews. Nazis hate those who they see as a problem at the moment (or who they consider "inferior").
In Germany in the 1930s, it was the Jews who were proclaimed enemies. In today's Europe, these are Russians. Therefore, I think many Jews now understand us.
That makes the term meaningless because that makes everyone a Nazi who hate those they see as a problem. For example, communists who hate all billionaires and all big corps because they see them as a problem could be called Nazis which makes no sense.
You are redefining the term to be able to use it in a very loose way, but that is wrong. With Hitler it would ALWAYS have been the Jews - and there is a long anti-semitic history all over the world, complete with a lot of literatute. Jews, not only as an object of hate, but as the root of all evil in the worls, has a very long tradition.
Quote:
JollyJoker said:
Nazis? What about the Russian Nazis?
The problem you are talking about is rather called "Russian great-power chauvinism" (since in Russia, indeed, from time immemorial, different nations got along well together).
And her you suddely redefine your Nazi definition again - you can't claim that there are no people in Russia YOUR Nazi definition would fit.
Bottom line is the same as before - you make not much sense. I'd say the reason is, you have to claim a couple of wild things to find ground that makes the Russian actions defensible.
They aren't.
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Ben80
Famous Hero
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posted April 05, 2022 09:48 PM |
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JollyJoker said:
You are mistaking him with Yushchenko whocmade Bandera a Hero of the Ukraine in 2010.
No, I'm not mistaking, it's your problem with logic and knowledge.
JollyJoker said:
That makes the term meaningless because that makes everyone a Nazi who hate those they see as a problem. For example, communists who hate all billionaires and all big corps because they see them as a problem could be called Nazis which makes no sense.
I meant on a national basis (this follows from the context, and is quite obvious for not stupid people).
JollyJoker said:
And her you suddely redefine your Nazi definition again - you can't claim that there are no people in Russia YOUR Nazi definition would fit.
Bottom line is the same as before - you make not much sense. I'd say the reason is, you have to claim a couple of wild things to find ground that makes the Russian actions defensible.
They aren't.
Spare me, please, from your empty rhetoric.
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AlexSpl
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted April 05, 2022 10:38 PM |
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To purge the whole nation to punish some snows is not a clever idea. Yes, you may say that the whole nation defend them. But I can say the same about Russia. Now my illusions about the powerful West is flushed down the toilet. Ukraine should have been in NATO just after the 2014's events. It doesn't matter now if it would have stopped Russia. But I think there would have been great chances to prevent all this. Why Ukraine? Not Latvia with their Nazi veterans parades? I can tell you why. Because Latvia in NATO.
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AlexSpl
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted April 05, 2022 11:01 PM |
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Edited by AlexSpl at 23:11, 05 Apr 2022.
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If I were a president and wished any country to be my ally, I would try to make my potential ally believe that it's a wise step to be a friend with my country. And how would I achieve this? By strenghening my country's economy. Say, my country's average salary is $3000, they have barely $500. It's already a reason for a tight friendship. And mind, Ukrainian people speak Russian (even those who don't, understand Russian), so there would not be even a language barrier.
Sorry for punctuation. It's a funny moment 
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AlexSpl
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted April 06, 2022 01:29 AM |
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Edited by AlexSpl at 02:08, 06 Apr 2022.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted April 06, 2022 09:09 AM |
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Ben80 said:
No, I'm not mistaking, it's your problem with logic and knowledge...
(this follows from the context, and is quite obvious for not stupid people)...
Spare me, please, from your empty rhetoric.
Thinly veiled insults and vilifications make it quite obvious for everyone, stupid or not, that you've got nothing to say.
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Ben80
Famous Hero
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posted April 06, 2022 10:05 AM |
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The fact is that when I see a lack of understanding of the elementary, then I am forced to talk about "stupidity" (although, perhaps, it is better to just keep silent and not communicate with those whose abilities you doubt).
I absolutely do not want to explain every misunderstood point, because if the source is not clear, then there are no guarantees that the explanations or explanations for the explanations will be understood. Especially since I see a certain malice in "misunderstanding".
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted April 06, 2022 10:06 AM |
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Ria Novosti published a guest article by Timofei Sergeitsev, making clear what has to happen with Ukraine.
For the non-Russian speakers, try this translation, although I can't guarantee that it's accurate.
For Butscha, an eye-witness seems to indicate, that the massacres were not the work of Russian SOLDIERS (who were "good guys" mostly, but of later coming older soldiers in back and dark green uniforms, brutal FSB types...
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ihor
Supreme Hero
Accidental Hero
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posted April 06, 2022 12:37 PM |
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That article is outrageous.
I saw a different translation of that here but looks like both translations are good.
Just a few quotes:
Those Nazis who took up arms must be destroyed on the battlefield, as many of them as possible. No significant distinction should be made between the Armed Forces of Ukraine and the so-called “nationalist battalions,” as well as the Territorial Defense, who have joined the two other types of military units.
However, besides the highest ranks, a significant number of common people are also guilty of being passive Nazis and Nazi accomplices.
The further denazification of this bulk of the population will take the form of re-education through ideological repressions (suppression) of Nazi paradigms and a harsh censorship not only in the political sphere but also in the spheres of culture and education.
Unlike, for example, Georgia or the Baltic States, history has proved it impossible for Ukraine to exist as a nation-state, and any attempts to “build” such a nation-state naturally lead to Nazism
Ukrainism is an artificial anti-Russian construct that has no civilizational substance of its own, a subordinate element of an extraneous and alien civilization. Debanderization alone will not be enough for denazification: the Banderite element is only a hand and a screen, a disguise for the European project of the Nazi Ukraine, which is why the denazification of Ukraine means its inevitable de-europeanization.
No “Marshall Plans” can be allowed to happen on these territories. No “neutrality” in the ideological and practical sense that is compatible with denazification can be possible.
Denazification will inevitably include de-ukrainization — the rejection of the large-scale artificial inflation of the ethnic component in the self-identification of the population of the historical Malorossiya and Novorossiya territories, which was started by the Soviet authorities.
I believe that pretty much something like that is in Putin's head.
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Ben80
Famous Hero
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posted April 06, 2022 01:10 PM |
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I won’t say anything, otherwise I’m somehow bad with communication here )))
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This thread is pages long: 
