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NimoStar
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Modding the Unmoddable
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posted January 16, 2023 04:46 PM |
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Edited by NimoStar at 16:49, 16 Jan 2023.
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Poll Question:
Weakest town?
Note that this is about the base H4 game. Modded stuff like Equilibris, Ultimate, Greatest Mod would need a separate thread.
As balance doesn't matter on campaigns since the maps are custom-made and the game length for heroes is greatly extended, one should need to take into account balance in skirmish VS maps, preferably on performance vs similarly skilled human opponents.
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Ghost
Undefeatable Hero
Therefore I am
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posted January 16, 2023 04:54 PM |
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Edited by Ghost at 16:55, 16 Jan 2023.
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Isn't..
I guess you haven't played Return to the Avenger (MWM2).. All 3DO theories, tricks, campaigns, scenarios to map.. And then MP is starting.. Impossible! Ok computer is Asylum and Necropolis.. If you say weakest Haven or Preserve.. I'm joining them.. 
EDIT
Now's sense, when you added on Academy, Stronghold and Necropolis..
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Fight MWMs - stand teach
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Albyx
Known Hero
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posted January 16, 2023 05:40 PM |
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Stronghold is the weakest because it has no magic.
Chaos is good and I'd even say the strongest on small maps, but falls on the long distance.
Life is bad early because it's slow and their magic works best with high level creatures and heroes.
Order and Death are the best towns in late game when you get GM magic schools or necromancy, they both have OP units who are very strong any time in a game, from start to late game (genies and vamps obviously).
Nature is in the middle, relies strongly on mana for summons and mantises from creature portal when clearing the map early. In late game still can't compete with Order and Death, but better than Chaos and Stronghold.
Conclusion: every town has its period in the game when it rocks. Making every faction into each others clone so they can compete on all stages and be "balanced" is a bad idea. But there are obvious issues like vanilla genies or vampires who are OP on all stages, that's why Death and Order are so strong.
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Ghost
Undefeatable Hero
Therefore I am
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posted January 16, 2023 05:45 PM |
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Ok maybe I should do Elite or Tocath.. What's the map? Teach all tricks about H4.. Maybe public players like a map.. H3 got 1 rating.. I can start next month..
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Fight MWMs - stand teach
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NimoStar
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Modding the Unmoddable
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posted January 16, 2023 05:52 PM |
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Edited by NimoStar at 17:54, 16 Jan 2023.
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Quote:
Now's sense, when you added on Academy, Stronghold and Necropolis..
I always intended for there to be all factions in the poll,
just accidentally hit enter before finishing
Will give my own opinions later but I'm pretty sure Chaos is the weakest, because it doesn't have access to any macroeconomic bonus
Stronghold +50% growth makes them competitive, you just need to get tactics from life/death hero
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Never changing = never improving
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ArdentWyrm
Famous Hero
King of the Elder Dragons
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posted January 16, 2023 07:17 PM |
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stronghold is weak because like albyx said, it has no magic, Haven is better because of their abilities while necropolis just raises skeletons in massive hordes, so yeah stronghold is the weakest.
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Torment is blinding. It lies. Its pollution steals my sense. It promises: destroy everything and the pain will cease.
- Kralkatorrik
https://dragcave.net/user/ArdentWyrm
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 16, 2023 07:37 PM |
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iliveinabox05
Honorable
Famous Hero
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posted January 16, 2023 08:45 PM |
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Everything albyx said is spot on. Different factions are stronger at different stages of the game.
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Ghost
Undefeatable Hero
Therefore I am
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posted January 16, 2023 09:30 PM |
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But no enough theory!  Elite or Tocath then.. Start at game the Barbarian with GM Combat class vs 10 other.. An example opening GM Knight, and so etc But don't happy yet.. The Barbarian releases 1lvl Archmage Tocath, and they revenge to antagonist.. Their (Barbarian and Tocath) opening town is Stronghold.. When second town is some for creatures.. and thrid town, thus you should know about culture, spells, creatures, etc.. Impossible lvl but lessons to you..  I've planned, but now's the time, because fool MODs, etc And Russians.. H4E.. Other map called world champion but be able to beat.. Pity! 
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Fight MWMs - stand teach
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Ghost
Undefeatable Hero
Therefore I am
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posted January 16, 2023 10:39 PM |
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ArdentWyrm
Famous Hero
King of the Elder Dragons
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posted January 17, 2023 12:49 AM |
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iliveinabox05 said:
Everything albyx said is spot on. Different factions are stronger at different stages of the game.
Example? when is asylum strong?, when is haven strong?, when is academy strong?, I wanna know.
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Torment is blinding. It lies. Its pollution steals my sense. It promises: destroy everything and the pain will cease.
- Kralkatorrik
https://dragcave.net/user/ArdentWyrm
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Drakon-Deus
Undefeatable Hero
Qapla'
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posted January 17, 2023 05:32 AM |
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I think Preserve is rather weak.
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Horses don't die on a dog's wish.
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Ghost
Undefeatable Hero
Therefore I am
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posted January 17, 2023 11:45 AM |
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Hmm ArdentWyrm learns Elite or Tocath (H4wow map), and DD tests the GM Barbarian vs GM Druid and also GM Archer..  but I can do variation, for lesson lvl.. and the last Elite lvl..
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Fight MWMs - stand teach
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Albyx
Known Hero
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posted January 17, 2023 01:34 PM |
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Ghost said:
EDIT your MODs are good also Albyx, but never becomes balance.. MOD means funny.. The same cheat codes mean testing game.. All know it.. Ok
I agree that mods should give new and fun experience and not focus on achieving ideal balance. Mods are providing new tools to play with, balance can be achieved in game maps.
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Ghost
Undefeatable Hero
Therefore I am
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posted January 17, 2023 02:53 PM |
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And Settlers is a famous balance.. It's scenario's or mapmaker's map..
Ok Stronghold? What's their culture, strategy, etc? START FROM EMPTY, and the Barbarian becomes for all classes.. General, Ranger, etc or Paladin, Beastmaster, etc But the worst part is wrong choice.. An example of random map, but doesn't exist, thus Barbarian choose Death, but map hasn't Necropolis in mind, for example.. Then I always take all skills.. I never waited for Order.. It takes too large time.. You see in Elite or Tocath then..
Ok Preserve? Love! If Order, etc so cold.. When player doesn't trust a Confusion, etc or Life does Summoner.. Tocath is Archmage.. So first Nature, thus friendly Stronghold.. Then against insane creatures.. When you can't use a Hypnotize, Mass Slow, etc than true love and strategy..
Some voted Asylum, so insane team.. and Dali's object.. Surrealistic Asylum.. Hexis' favourite team..
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Fight MWMs - stand teach
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Albyx
Known Hero
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posted January 17, 2023 03:25 PM |
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So you want to make a tournament of weakest factions voted in this topic?
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Ghost
Undefeatable Hero
Therefore I am
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posted January 17, 2023 03:39 PM |
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I never have thought.. Return to the Avenger, it can be Preserve*, but I killed Thunderbirds, and the game crashes.. Not famous AI but HUMAN PLAYER CAN DO IN H3 and H4.. Because I can play to crash.. LOL
*if some thought so.. What poll is now.. When impossible lvl.. So he/she can take a Necropolis or Order..  Do you remember event says break a record.. My fault isn't 
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Fight MWMs - stand teach
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NimoStar
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Modding the Unmoddable
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posted January 17, 2023 05:09 PM |
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Edited by NimoStar at 17:09, 17 Jan 2023.
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Well, I don't speak only from natural experience. I have run over 100 army vs army tests
here is the custom map I made for these tests, you can try it yourself
The setup per faction is:
- One randomly developed level 25 might hero
- One randonly developed level 25 magic hero
- Level 1 A growth: Six weeks
- Level 1 B growth: Six weeks
- Level 2 growth: Five weeks
- Level 3 growth: Five weeks
- Level 4 growth: Three weeks
In Stronghold case, I approximately averaged with and without +50% growth (since it is not one of your cheap buildings you are encouraged to build it when you already have several dwellings)
Chaos performs very badly, I suspect in part due to Thief hero; however this can be even the case if you take two wizards. Might pretty well including against chaos: Barbarians with Master/GM magic resistance can easily take out sorcerers even with archery, while sorcerers are powerless vs barbarians.
Now, this is a very idealized "pure faction" scenario. Chaos coult and should take Death Knights for the powerful Tactics tree. But then, so can Might. And Might can also boost economy and recruitment by buying Nobles, while Chaos just can't. At the end game, might still scales better than magic, this is almost as true in H4 as it was in H3. Since base H4 sorcerers practically only specialize in damage and not in utility like Order magic, it is logical that they will be left behind.
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Never changing = never improving
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Albyx
Known Hero
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posted January 17, 2023 05:21 PM |
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Was it AI who controlled battles in your tests?
Chaos can win almost all these battles if they have 2 magic heroes who cast 2 clouds of confusion.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 17, 2023 05:52 PM |
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NimoStar said:
Well, I don't speak only from natural experience. I have run over 100 army vs army tests
here is the custom map I made for these tests, you can try it yourself
The setup per faction is:
- One randomly developed level 25 might hero
- One randonly developed level 25 magic hero
- Level 1 A growth: Six weeks
- Level 1 B growth: Six weeks
- Level 2 growth: Five weeks
- Level 3 growth: Five weeks
- Level 4 growth: Three weeks
That set-up is not only idealized it doesn't make any sense. Two level 25 heroes need about 540.000 XP. For that you can have two level 23 and one level 22 hero (the third one hired after one week).
It also leaves out the fact that the fifficulty level you play a map with doesn't change the XP values it gives, only the amount of creatures you gave to beat for the same XP. Depending on that level (and even on any sinhle one you pick) factions won't develop equally. With 3 heroes you can alo easily pick a diferent class hero. Chaos could easily go for a Death Knight and a second sorcerer. A Thief could cash in a lot of stuff and additional XP, skills might be acquired on the map, and so on.
Then there is the gold problem - you need a lot of additional looz and income to buy and build all that stuff within 3 weeks and buy it out. That is obviously very map-dependent, but 540.000 XP is a hell of a lot (for at least two parties on any map) to collect.
In short, I'd say that this is completely without any real value.
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