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| Thread: Bron: The most unique hero? |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 26, 2023 09:09 PM |
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gnollking said:
When you make changes, making sure to minimize any balancing concerns is the most important thing for pretty much all game devs.
Not true. Just look at Homm 3. Minimizing balancing concerns hasn't been high on the agenda of the Homm 3 debelopers. Instead a fun single playing experience was. That's generally true.
The reason is, that balancing games for MP oftentimes balances the fun out of the game. The more asymmetrical things are, the more of an illusion "valance" is, but the more fun the game is. Imbalance is something the MP community has to live with - with better games than JoMM 3.
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To just say, "let the players ban what they want if it's too op" and add whatever you want into the game is terrible.
Come now. We are not talking "whatever you want" here. That's just polemic - as polemic as your initial answer was (your personal definition of balance is irrelevant and putting words in someone's mouth and then calling them quite ignorant is just malevolent).
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gnollking
Supreme Hero
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posted January 26, 2023 09:48 PM |
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JollyJoker said:
Not true. Just look at Homm 3. Minimizing balancing concerns hasn't been high on the agenda of the Homm 3 debelopers. Instead a fun single playing experience was. That's generally true.
Well yes, I was talking more about modern development. The industry has obviously changed a lot in the past 20 years, nowadays if there's multiplayer in a game, it affects the end product quite a lot. I admit I focus mainly on multiplayer when there's talk about balancing, but looking at single-player is just as valid.
Also I apologize for my first post, it was mostly just provocation. And I agree (to a point) about your opinion on asymmetry, it was the main reason I stopped playing Songs of Conquest, all the factions felt the same and there wasn't enough reason to replay after a few games.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 26, 2023 10:12 PM |
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Thanks for the apology.
The last mp-relevant game I really was into (with lots and lots of playing time, as opposed to a mere couple dozen hours) has been Age of Wonders 3 (which for me was the best game I've ever played).
In AoW 3 you have a couple of MP modes, PBEM (which allows a player all the time he needs and manualing all the fights), and live MP (with or without SimTurns) with "AutoBattle".
Now, the "real" MP guys playing with AutoFights tried to balance the game (units) with a view on how units would work in Auto Battles (handled by the AI), while Single Player and PBEM community were trying to balance things with a view on what human players could do.
That led to MP guys complaining about units dying too quickly in AutoCombat while the others complained that units that tended to die in AutoComat would be way roo strong in human hands when they got a boost.
Why do I tell that?
I think, in today's gaming world you need different mods for different porposes. In AoW 3 you'd need a balancing mod for each mode of play, with a view on who the mod was catering for. In games with mod support that's pretty easy to accomplish nowadays.
In essence, that would be something HoMM 3 needed as well. HoMM 3, MP balance version.
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heymlich
Famous Hero
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posted January 27, 2023 03:38 AM |
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Edited by heymlich at 03:42, 27 Jan 2023.
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NimoStar said:
Press X to doubt. Even with +1 speed Gremlins would still be one of the slowest creatures.
I thought it was pretty obvious, but it seems I need to explain this in more detail.
For Tower, at least on higher difficulties, a good early game strategy is to rely on just master gremlins (and nagas towards the end of week 1) and spend the money on structures and heroes. It might be different on easy settings, but I don't care about that.
The key to success here is to not lose too many master gremlins - if possible none at all. This works well against walkers, but shooters are a bit of a problem since tower has nothing fast enough to block them. Now, master gremlins have speed 6 on snow. There are quite a few ranged units, that have speed 6, too: Master gremlins and mages (on snow), marksmen and elves.
Typically, in week 1 you don't fight groups higher than tier 3 or maybe 4. This means, with the +1 speed you can fight almost everything in your starting area with minimal or no losses, just using master gremlins. Except for grand elves, you can't take them. And beholders and medusa queens can be done if necessary, but there will be losses.
With the +1 speed you can also do crypts on snow without the risk to lose your hero if there are 10 vampires. At least as long as you have an archery hero.
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bloodsucker
Legendary Hero
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posted January 27, 2023 07:37 AM |
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JollyJoker said:
I think, in today's gaming world you need different mods for different porposes. In AoW 3 you'd need a balancing mod for each mode of play, with a view on who the mod was catering for. In games with mod support that's pretty easy to accomplish nowadays.
In essence, that would be something HoMM 3 needed as well. HoMM 3, MP balance version.
I agree, while trying to get things more balanced for MP, HotA screwed removed or nerfed many things that were fun, like the absolute OPness of Logistics or the invincibility of Sprites day 1. On the opposite side, I can't thank enough Woodmelon and Sal for the fun I had for years, putting the first's Second Henchmen against the second's BAI at 1000%...
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thecastrated
Famous Hero
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posted January 27, 2023 06:42 PM |
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To OP if your split your basilisk up won't you risk losing one when the creature you trying to stobe retaliates if not stoned?
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heymlich
Famous Hero
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posted January 27, 2023 10:47 PM |
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Four single basilisks can tank four times the damage before you lose something.
I think the idea here was to use up the retailation with a single basilisk, expecting him to survive the counterattack. This works pretty well with how defense oriented beastmasters are.
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NimoStar
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Modding the Unmoddable
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posted January 28, 2023 01:48 AM |
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Edited by NimoStar at 01:59, 28 Jan 2023.
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Yes, the minimum of 4 basilisks can withstand up to an ideal 34*4 damage in retaliations before any dies. If all are in the same stack, that will kill 3 of the 4 basilisks.
generally neutral monster stack won't do so much damage with a single attack, furthermore basilisks have good DEF which stack with bron's hero def, and the Armorer starting skill.
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Anyways, my point about Bron being good was assymetry. Making everyone starting with up to level 6 creatures actually makes assumetry more irrelevant, so JJ is wrong on his own count.
My point isn't about abstractly increasing "balance" but rather diversifying the possibilities of opening strategies. if everyone just chooses level 6 specialists because they are objectively superior, the game will be fundamentally impoverished. Bron is good because it boosts a generally weak town (so, it makes it more viable), not so starting with Death Knights.
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Never changing = never improving
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heymlich
Famous Hero
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posted January 28, 2023 03:25 AM |
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NimoStar said:
Anyways, my point about Bron being good was assymetry.
He really is a good starting hero. However, I rarely pick him, for two reasons:
1. Tazar is so good. He has more potential and he doesn't fall behind much at the beginning because:
2. You can have wyvern on day 2, sometimes even day 1, and with Tazar they are really tanky.
This somehow destroys the purpose of picking Bron.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 28, 2023 09:24 AM |
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NimoStar said:
Making everyone starting with up to level 6 creatures actually makes assumetry more irrelevant, so JJ is wrong on his own count.
More nonsense. This is just you being stubborn.
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zmudziak22
Supreme Hero
Heroes 3 Fan
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posted January 28, 2023 12:03 PM |
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I don't Bron is mistake. I remember back in day, Fortress had weaker units, until NWC patched it(same with inferno dogs).
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NimoStar
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Modding the Unmoddable
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posted January 28, 2023 08:25 PM |
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Edited by NimoStar at 20:28, 28 Jan 2023.
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Quote:
More nonsense. This is just you being stubborn.
No, this is just YOU being stubborn 
Really, I can't imagine any world where "lets just make eerything a mess without any sense of scale and let them sort it out" is considered sound game design principles. I take it you have never modded or designed a game, have you? I have, many times, and I assure you they would have never been highly reviewed if I took such wrong-headed "principles" to the approach.
heymlich said:
He really is a good starting hero. However, I rarely pick him, for two reasons:
1. Tazar is so good. He has more potential and he doesn't fall behind much at the beginning because:
2. You can have wyvern on day 2, sometimes even day 1, and with Tazar they are really tanky.
This somehow destroys the purpose of picking Bron.
That may be true in longer maps, however unlike hota standarized templates the default game offers many starting conditions variety, including short maps where Bron's basilisks really can tip the game.
Tazar's specialty bonus is only really useful way later on when he's very high level, while basilisks will be with you day one.
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Never changing = never improving
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 28, 2023 08:45 PM |
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NimoStar said:
Quote:
More nonsense. This is just you being stubborn.
No, this is just YOU being stubborn
Really, I can't imagine any world where "lets just make eerything a mess without any sense of scale and let them sort it out" is considered sound game design principles. I take it you have never modded or designed a game, have you? I have, many times, and I assure you they would have never been highly reviewed if I took such wrong-headed "principles" to the approach.
Wrong wiki article. "Stubborn" isn't "name-calling", it's just characterizing for you, not having any points - exemplified by a "no, YOU are". What are you? A five-year-old?
And, frankly, when you say "I can't imagine any world where "lets just make everything a mess without any sense of scale and let them sort it out" is considered sound game design principles" - who are you talking about? Not me, certainly - ah, I know, you probably mean the designers of HoMM 3, because that's what they did. In a way, at least. Me? Not so.
JFY, I did modify a game, AoW 3, to be specific, and extensively so. I think I know what I'm talking about. Xut you made me curious - whicj highly reviewed games did you design?
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NimoStar
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Modding the Unmoddable
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posted January 28, 2023 09:43 PM |
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Edited by NimoStar at 21:43, 28 Jan 2023.
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Quote:
Wrong wiki article. "Stubborn" isn't "name-calling", it's just characterizing for you, not having any points - exemplified by a "no, YOU are". What are you? A five-year-old?
"characterizing", of course ...
No, I did make a point, that "doing whatever because balance doesn't matter" isn't asymmetric game design, it's just terrible, and that was a point; that whatever unbalanced strategy there exists would make all other strategies uncompetitive, thus greatly DIMINISHING variety.
which you didn't answer, and reverted to calling me "stubborn" for having an actual logical argument ehich is based in the "optimal styrategy" model of Game Theory (which is an actual academic discipline, scientific, mathematical and empirical, of which you are of course unaware)
You can see some of my mods here
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JFY, I did modify a game, AoW 3, to be specific, and extensively so.
Really? Where is it published? Or is it something that you just play yourself without any kind of feedback, because otherwise it would be plain obvious.
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Never changing = never improving
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted January 28, 2023 09:56 PM |
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Edited by artu at 22:10, 28 Jan 2023.
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Flattening down every imbalance for the sake of MP is a bad idea, JJ is right about that in general. But the specific idea of every creature specialist starting with their own creatures is not a good idea given the fact that you have a dead knight specialist and a devil specialist.
These would be so overpowered, they would be the only heroes to pick. So such a change would also turn single player mode less diversified and less fun. A necro starting with dead knights would have an unbeatable army of skeletons so quick, you can simply quit at day one playing against him.
The game can have more imbalanced modifications, sure, but they shouldnt be overpowered to the point of dullness. Like, I always thought an earthquake specialist would be fun. I made one in my own mod. It would be a unique advantage to be able to destroy town walls from day 1, so what if its quite stronger than having a weakness specialist. But a town portal specialist would be overkill.
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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Phoenix4ever
Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
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posted January 28, 2023 10:15 PM |
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Yeah starting with Black Knights or any level 7 creatures would be OP.
Imagine Alkin starting with 2-3 gorgons and giving them to Tazar. Tazar could have some pretty tanky gorgons very fast.
So maybe level 4 or 5 is the limit?
@artu I am very curious, what would an Earthquake or Town Portal specialist do?, and does these specialties actually exist?
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 28, 2023 10:16 PM |
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NimoStar said:
No, I did make a point, that "doing whatever because balance doesn't matter" isn't asymmetric game design, it's just terrible, and that was a point; that whatever unbalanced strategy there exists would make all other strategies uncompetitive, thus greatly DIMINISHING variety.
which you didn't answer,
Because I never made that point. What I did was answering to your outcry, saying that the game wasn't balanced anyway, and that you can unbalance an unbalanved game only more when you make more OP what is OP and more UP what is already UP. For me that finished that "doing whatever". Repeating it was, for me, you being stuborn. Quote:
and reverted to calling me "stubborn" for having an actual logical argument ehich is based in the "optimal styrategy" model of Game Theory (which is an actual academic discipline, scientific, mathematical and empirical, of which you are of course unaware)
You WISHED you haf a logical argument, but you didn't. You answered to point you made yourself, not me.
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You can see some of my mods here
I asked for the games you designed, not the mods, because you talked anout GAME design and made it sound like you jad designed games. Have you?
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JFY, I did modify a game, AoW 3, to be specific, and extensively so.
Really? Where is it published? Or is it something that you just play yourself without any kind of feedback, because otherwise it would be plain obvious.
You can find everything about it here.
@ artu
In the regular Homm 3 non-campaign there are no L7 specialists. About Tamika starting with 1 (one) Black Knight, well, that would make her a pretty good starting hero. But I don't think Necro has any shortage on them. It wouldn't make her stand out.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 28, 2023 10:24 PM |
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Phoenix4ever said:
Yeah starting with Black Knights or any level 7 creatures would be OP.
Imagine Alkin starting with 2-3 gorgons and giving them to Tazar. Tazar could have some pretty tanky gorgons very fast.
So maybe level 4 or 5 is the limit??
Faulty reasoning. It's TAZAR, who is the problem. Doesn't it speak volumes, that you don't say ALKIN, being a specialist and all, could have some pretty tanky Gorgons very fast?
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Phoenix4ever
Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
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posted January 28, 2023 10:28 PM |
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Well Armorer and Offense specialists ARE kinda broken, so was Logistics, Necromancy and Intelligence specialists, before HotA nerfed them...
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted January 28, 2023 11:02 PM |
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Edited by artu at 23:03, 28 Jan 2023.
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Phoenix4ever said:
@artu I am very curious, what would an Earthquake or Town Portal specialist do?, and does these specialties actually exist?
With ERM, you can change the specialty of any hero to any spell or creature or skill. The point of having a EQ or TP specialist is, of course, that they start with the spell equipped. So you would be starting with a level 3 and a level 4 spell right away, like how Solymr starts with Chain Lightning. In case of Earthquake, it becomes an interesting hero with a pretty unique starting skill, in case of Town Portal, it would be THE hero to always go for.
Btw. I dont like those HotA nerfs.
@JJ
Yeah, right. I play on WOG- Era with all heroes enabled in tavern option, so forgot about the devil guy being a campaign only hero. I'd still say necromancy + level 6 creature (and dead knights are one of the best) would be overkill though, you can attack any map creature instantly, get a horde of skeletons right away and the dead knight's health would still be restored on the next fight. 3-4 level 4 creatures may drop to 1-2 in a few fights but a single level 6 creature's HP resets each fight. Generated map creatures on the first week are no match for them.
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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