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| Thread: What is left for HoTA to "fix"? |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 · NEXT» |
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LordCameron
Known Hero
Veteran of the Succession Wars
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posted March 06, 2025 04:37 AM |
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What is left for HoTA to
With the skill update I feel like Horn of the Abyss has basically solved every outstanding issue with the game. Of course some things can always be tweaked, but it feels like the fundamentals are almost entirely taken care of.
What are the last hurdles to be conquered?
My own list is:
Magic needs to be fixed. This is easily the biggest one. I think I can say homm 3 has the worst magic in the series. Schools of magic, mass spells, 3/4 of the spellbook going untouched, it's a bit of a mess might heroes being superior, it's a bit of a mess and is going to take a lot of work and probably a few false starts to get right.
Inferno. The castle gate buff was huge, but they need something on the military front other than just relying on demon farming. Maybe a growth buff or a unit buff across the board.
On the note of Inferno, Grail buildings need an overhaul. Cove, Factory, Conflux, and Tower are interesting, the others not so much, and their use is also all over the place and too often purely defensive. Inferno is debatably interesting though not very useful.
Luck and Leadership. The skills are too easily replaced by items and luck especially does little to change the game. Every other skill changes the rule of the game whereas these two can disappear with the right set up. Unlocking additional tiers (like in Ah3m) or allowing luck to effect creature proc chances are a possibility here.
Fortress: Hydra needs regen
Conflux: The elementals are weird. Something needs to be done about the Tier situation. Whether that is making them all Tier 3, or buffing the Tier 4 and 5 to actually be as strong as a Tier 4 or 5 the current system makes me disappointed every time I get an earth elemental.
I think that is my entire list. The game is in a pretty amazing spot and I'm making this not to complain but show how few things "need" fixing at this point.
I'm curious if you guys have your own things needing a bit of an overhaul or a disagreement or suggested fix.
Edit: AI fix: Impossible AI can find the grail after 1 obelisk. That isn't fun.
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What are Homm Songs based on?
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Phoenix4ever
Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
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posted March 06, 2025 07:58 AM |
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Only a few things:
1) Some way of removing unwanted skills from heroes. It should not be possible to remove a skill you specialise in and having to pay for it, would be totally fair.
2) Some way of casting spells on creatures, normally immune to them. I guess an artifact would be the best for this and no Orb of Vulnerability does'nt count as it also removes resistance of creatures, skill, specialty and artifacts.
3) Interface that allows for more than 8 skills per hero. It could be done with a simple scrolling mechanic, like in the backpack.
4) Make AI able to cast Fire Wall and Land Mine, so it can actually use Luna and Victorias specialties.
Would also be interesting if it could cast Quicksand, Remove Obstacle and Force Field.
5) Melchior is probably the most stupid hero in the game: Specialising in surrendering? Who ever wants to use him as a hero?
Also AI can't use surrender.
Replace him with someone else!
6) More factions, heroes, artifacts and adventure map objects are always welcome.
(I already fixed the magic system myself and also the AI grail digging issues on expert and impossible.)
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bloodsucker
Legendary Hero
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posted March 06, 2025 11:35 AM |
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LordCameron said:
On the note of Inferno, Grail buildings need an overhaul. Cove, Factory, Conflux, and Tower are interesting, the others not so much, and their use is also all over the place and too often purely defensive. Inferno is debatably interesting though not very useful.
Ok, I love the Tower grail. It allows me to finish the map in no time when I probably am already unstoppable and starting to get bored but besides that I would argue that grails shouldn't have specials that break the game (Conflux, Tower, Inferno and Cove) cause I want to be able to give them from start to enemies and these I can't.
@Phoenix4ever I've said this before... It's a great idea to rework the secondary skills but if I have to chose between 28 viable skills for just 8 slots some important stuff is going to be missing. At this point I don't even know what to give to AI heroes (the ones that will be removed from the heroes pool whenever I defeat them) even if some became more interesting for MY secondary heroes (thinking of Estates, for instance). Yes, the better the SS the more you need a market of time and extra slots.
Despise being one of the detractors of Heroes IV, I believe the skill system was by far the best ever. You could always get the skills you wanted, if the map was big enough. Classes not that much but all I ever needed was a Beastmaster's Hut with Scouting (to get Field Marshalls from the Tactics heroes).
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Syth1984
Adventuring Hero
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posted March 06, 2025 11:51 AM |
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Edited by Syth1984 at 11:52, 06 Mar 2025.
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Spells I agree with (especially mass slow ,town portal ,dimension door elemental summons).
A.I. needs to stay competitive.Should be able to use spells and skills properly.
Scouting does not do much as a skill.At expert it should at least show you the castle defenses (with castles defenses tweaked with secondary building such as blood obelisk)
Castle sieges are becoming easier.. Castle defenses are iconic and gives the weaker player some way of catching up usually or chipping away the forces of very strong players. Some underused building such as look out tower, Blood obelisk, Birmstone storm clouds, Cover of Darkness,den of thieves etc could be repurposed a bit so that it offers additional defenses if the player choses so.Artillery skill should benefit siege defenses as well (arrows do +%20,+%40,%60 more damage to flying creatures would have been my solution.)
Creature bank problem still exists. It's just angles, wyverns and cyclops all the games. Snowballing them shouldn't be the only strategy. Probably providing more variety ( a creature bank for inferno(efreet sultans),factory (sandworms) and necro(wights) would be nice) or providing "cyclops or thunderbirds" "Wyverns or Hydras" "Angels or Champions" kind of probability would kill the snowball.
I wish there were artifact versions of siege engines to spice things up and have some alternative for heroes getting those skills. "Resurrection tent" or "Dragon Killer Balista" "Suppresion balista"(-3 to speed of the creature attack that turn) ,poision arrow ammo cart. etc. Remember with spell schools having more options as spells are reworked might heroes would be left a bit behind. So they need such eccentric options.
Ammo cart should be changed. It has nearly no use. Every ammo cart supplied in every blacksmith should have different effects depending on the castle "poison ammo cart" for fortress( only the half of the creatures attack that turn do a retaliation strike maybe?).
Fortress: Hydra regeneration would be cool. Give them a stable like effect in a building so they move faster in swamp. This castle has hard time creeping(This is a hard problem to solve) A basilisk growth boosting building would be great. Forgetfullness and blind should have higher chance of appearing in this mage guild (would help dealing with shooters and dealing with retaliation). Some poison related thing could help. Ammo cart could provide poison arrows (special ammo cart maybe)
Stronghold:With proper changes to ballista skill and artillery this town would be fine. Escape tunnel and ballista yard should support siege defense.
Rampart: Like the way it is  .
Necro: Zombies could get immune to slow . Skeleton Transformer should be able to change dragons+Coutals+Sea Serpents into bone dragons.It would get necro players hungry for rampart/dungeon/
Inferno: Should be able to recruit Cannons to help it with creep clearing. With other changes to balista and fireball it could be fine.
Factory: I propose Animate Dead rebranded as animate and at third mageguild level it should have a higher chance of appearing.Nonliving,undead and mechanical creatures cannot be raised by resurrection but animate.
Some creatures should be immune to slow: Efreets ,genies, energy elementals, zombies.
Thunderbirds: Immune to lightingbolt(thats a bit no brainer  )
Some small immunities here and there would spice some creatures. Basilisks being immune to poison or petrification wouldn't topple the balance of the game for example.
But that's about it. Spell balance is a big undertaking anyway.
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gatecrasher
Famous Hero
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posted March 06, 2025 11:55 AM |
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Phoenix4ever said:
Only a few things:
1) Some way of removing unwanted skills from heroes. It should not be possible to remove a skill you specialise in and having to pay for it, would be totally fair.
3) Interface that allows for more than 8 skills per hero. It could be done with a simple scrolling mechanic, like in the backpack.
Yay, cheats for everyone.
The same set of favourite skills for every hero under your control. How exciting!
I don't think there is a need for such workarounds after they've made more skills at least viable/useful.
Mindful of the fact a few smaller tweaks might come in future.
Syth1984 said:
Zombies could get immune to slow .
If there's one unit I see being immune to Slow it would be (Arch)devils with their teleportation.
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phoenix4ever
Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
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posted March 06, 2025 12:20 PM |
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@Gatecrasher
Well HotA amplified the problem of having only 8 skills, by buffing a lot of the weaker skills.
For example I would never dream of going without Learning or Pathfinding these days. First Aid and Eagle Eye also became very desireable.
So a way to remove unwanted skills and have more than 8 skills, is needed more now than ever. (I personally run with 11 skills now, it seems perfect, besides when you have already maxed out your 8 skills, you don't get much from level ups and the game becomes a bit boring, 11 is much more interesting.)
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bloodsucker
Legendary Hero
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posted March 06, 2025 12:59 PM |
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gatecrasher said:
The same set of favourite skills for every hero under your control. How exciting!
Yes!! Exactly. It's Logistics (at 30%), Earth, Water, Wisdom, Offense, Archery, Intelligence and Pathfinding. ALWAYS! FOREVER!
If I wanted a new game I would buy it.
Syth1984 said:
Skeleton Transformer should be able to change dragons+Coutals+Sea Serpents into bone dragons.
It already does that at least for dragons, hydras and sea serpents, I'm not sure about couatls.
I love when people's suggestions show how much they understand the game.
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FdgK
Known Hero
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posted March 06, 2025 01:04 PM |
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Syth1984 said:
Skeleton Transformer should be able to change dragons+Coutals+Sea Serpents into bone dragons.It would get necro players hungry for rampart/dungeon/
But that's already the case.
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phoenix4ever
Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
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posted March 06, 2025 01:25 PM |
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I'll just leave this here:
https://heroes.thelazy.net//index.php/Skeleton_Transformer
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purerogue3
Known Hero
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posted March 06, 2025 04:34 PM |
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LordCameron said:
Magic needs to be fixed. This is easily the biggest one. I think I can say homm 3 has the worst magic in the series. Schools of magic, mass spells, 3/4 of the spellbook going untouched, it's a bit of a mess might heroes being superior, it's a bit of a mess and is going to take a lot of work and probably a few false starts to get right.
Agree. I've spent alot of time balancing each spell/+schools individually..
LordCameron said:
Inferno. The castle gate buff was huge, but they need something on the military front other than just relying on demon farming. Maybe a growth buff or a unit buff across the board.
Farming is OOO-P. Giving spec abilities to the units is a way.
LordCameron said:
On the note of Inferno, Grail buildings need an overhaul. Cove, Factory, Conflux, and Tower are interesting, the others not so much, and their use is also all over the place and too often purely defensive. Inferno is debatably interesting though not very useful.
I haven't found a good way to incorporate the Grail into a SP/random game yet. It would probaby be defensive in nature, as the snowballing does not fit with a single game.
LordCameron said:
Luck and Leadership. The skills are too easily replaced by items and luck especially does little to change the game. Every other skill changes the rule of the game whereas these two can disappear with the right set up. Unlocking additional tiers (like in Ah3m) or allowing luck to effect creature proc chances are a possibility here.
I quite like them the way they are. Adjust the max limit to 9.
LordCameron said:
Fortress: Hydra needs regen
Then what would the (traditional) first aid tent be for?
LordCameron said:
Conflux: The elementals are weird. Something needs to be done about the Tier situation. Whether that is making them all Tier 3, or buffing the Tier 4 and 5 to actually be as strong as a Tier 4 or 5 the current system makes me disappointed every time I get an earth elemental.
I've worked out a solution of increased spell resistances +restricted allowed buff spells (+harmful spells) to live true to the "elemental" name implying synergy with Hero magic schools.
I've made them so they have little synergy with each other, but benefit from the sec.skill expertise.
It's subtle but enough to effect the balance of recruitable neutrals for the cost.
Interesting we share similar philosophy/concerns.
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LordCameron
Known Hero
Veteran of the Succession Wars
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posted March 06, 2025 05:16 PM |
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purerogue3 said:
Farming is OOO-P. Giving spec abilities to the units is a way.
If anything I'd nerf farming until I needed to buff the rest. Having the entire faction revolve around a single mechanic isn't that interesting. (Though right now devils and efreet are pretty solid units)
I noticed in the lore of the campaign that the Kreegans actually summon volcanoes at the start of their invasions. A terrain conversion around captured towns or starting towns or a world spell would be on brand. (Maybe a bit too Age of Wonders) but it would be interesting to see if it worked.
purerogue3 said:
I haven't found a good way to incorporate the Grail into a SP/random game yet. It would probably be defensive in nature, as the snowballing does not fit with a single game.
I guess it depends if the grail is meant to be a boost or a win condition. Even if it is only a minor effect, I'd rather that than say +2 morale to a faction already specializing in leadership, or something that only happens if your grail castle is attacked (which you don't want to happen in the first place.)
purerogue3 said:
Then what would the (traditional) first aid tent be for?
I'm not sure how I'd want hydra's to have regen, but if it was only 50hp per turn as the current cap is, it would still have its place. Or there is always the gorgons.
purerogue3 said:
Interesting we share similar philosophy/concerns.
Yeah I appreciate your insights here.
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What are Homm Songs based on?
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Syth1984
Adventuring Hero
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posted March 06, 2025 06:10 PM |
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FdgK said:
Syth1984 said:
Skeleton Transformer should be able to change dragons+Coutals+Sea Serpents into bone dragons.It would get necro players hungry for rampart/dungeon/
But that's already the case.
Yes my bad. Last time I played I checked this but probably checked it from an old source. So didn't try my dragons in it .
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Syth1984
Adventuring Hero
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posted March 06, 2025 06:13 PM |
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bloodsucker said:
gatecrasher said:
The same set of favourite skills for every hero under your control. How exciting!
Yes!! Exactly. It's Logistics (at 30%), Earth, Water, Wisdom, Offense, Archery, Intelligence and Pathfinding. ALWAYS! FOREVER!
If I wanted a new game I would buy it.
Syth1984 said:
Skeleton Transformer should be able to change dragons+Coutals+Sea Serpents into bone dragons.
It already does that at least for dragons, hydras and sea serpents, I'm not sure about couatls.
I love when people's suggestions show how much they understand the game.
No need for condescending remarks. Just some thing went under my radar does not mean my other opinions are invalidated. Let's keep it civilized and fun as in Heroes of Might and Magic III.
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bloodsucker
Legendary Hero
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posted March 06, 2025 06:24 PM |
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Syth1984 said:
Last time I played I checked this but probably checked it from an old source. So didn't try my dragons in it .
Sorry, it has been like that at least since SoD, it isn't a HotA modification while they included the Sea Serpents.
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Syth1984
Adventuring Hero
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posted March 06, 2025 08:29 PM |
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bloodsucker said:
Syth1984 said:
Last time I played I checked this but probably checked it from an old source. So didn't try my dragons in it .
Sorry, it has been like that at least since SoD, it isn't a HotA modification while they included the Sea Serpents.
Good to know. Never used it back then (I mean 2000s).Never risked my tier 7 units I guess. One item down then. I hope they get the spell balance right.
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purerogue3
Known Hero
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posted March 07, 2025 04:30 PM |
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I did elementals like this:
Un-upgraded:
immune to same school damage/de-buff spell
same-school buff only
Upgraded:
immune to all damage/de-buff except opposite school
only opposite-school buff banned(immune)
example:
Fire elemental:
immune: dmg: firewall,mine,fireball,armaggedon,inferno
de-buff: curse,misfortune
buff: bloodlust,frenzy,fireshield
Energy elemental:
immune: dmg: ALL except icebolt,frostring
de-buff: All except weakness,dispel
buff: ALL except bless,prayer,clone,teleport
So the net effect is elementals are magic-immune except for the opposite school, which is the only way they can be hurt magically when fighting them.
When owning them, they benefit from only same magic school when un-upgraded, and all except the opposite school when upgraded.
There are other minor adjustments you can make to accentuate school-ness.
water elemenetals have highest HP, to benefit from healing (tent+cure) also fire-lowest
water elementals have highest min-max dmg spread to benefit form bless, fire elemental min=max
etc.
thus in this tedious way minor customizations add up to overall effect of elemental very belonging to the magic school
Also note upgraded elementals cannot cast their protection spell on any other elemental, so having them all together s non-beneficial
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Macron1
Supreme Hero
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posted March 07, 2025 07:48 PM |
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HOTA doesnt fix, but breaks.
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bloodsucker
Legendary Hero
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posted March 07, 2025 08:56 PM |
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Macron1 said:
HOTA doesnt fix, but breaks.
I agree, for each small improvement, like nerfing Necromancy and improving Estates they make irreversible poorly thought changes, like nerfing Slow and remove trained heroes from the pool.
The number of maps these "improvements" broke is countless.
On one hand, they've made the amazing RMG Template Editor, on the other they kept it closed source, when ERA and SoD could (and should) profit from it.
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted March 07, 2025 10:04 PM |
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So First Aid now gives HP even if none is lost? That doesnt make any sense.
They nerfed Slow? Mass slow is a H3 classic.
Cloak of the Undead King disabled? How about in ranom maps?
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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bloodsucker
Legendary Hero
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posted March 07, 2025 11:15 PM |
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artu said:
Cloak of the Undead King disabled? How about in ranom maps?
I think that's not HotA but Tournament Rules. Same developers different mod.
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