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Heroes Community > Heroes 4 - Lands of Axeoth > Thread: Wish: New Secondary skill.
Thread: Wish: New Secondary skill. This thread is 2 pages long: 1 2 · NEXT»
Djive
Djive


Honorable
Supreme Hero
Zapper of Toads
posted May 14, 2002 10:13 PM bonus applied.

Wish: New Secondary skill.

Having seen the Heroes 4 skills, there seem to be two ways of creating new skills.

Either you add a new primary skill and the three associated secondary skills.

Or you create a new secondary skill to all the existing skills.

I've used the latter approach, and here's a short description of the skills.

======

Alchemy (Nature magic) : The Hero produces Magic Potions.

The Magic Potions are selected from the "Blacksmith" in the hero's native town. Only Potions available there can be produced. The rate at GM will be 1 Potion/day plus 5% per level. (Immortality Potions would take twice as long to make as they cost twice as much.)

======

Artifice (Life Magic) : The Hero can create artifacts (excluding Scrolls and Parchments)

The artifacts available and how long creating them takes depends on Hero level. Basic/Advanced: Treasures can be made. Expert/Master: Minor Artifacts can be made. Grand master: Major Artifacts can be made. The time it takes to make a artifact will be proportional to the cost (in Gold) associated with the artifact.

======

Animate (Death Magic) : Animates undead permanently.

Restores to Undeath a percentage of killed undead creatures. (Post-combat effect). Percentages as for the Resurrection skill.

======

Searing (Chaos Magic) : Gives hero Fireshield and increases damage.

Gives the hero a Fireshield (10% (Basic)-50%(GM) of melee damage dealt to the Hero will be reflected to the attacker.

Also causes the hero's melee attack to do 1(Basic)-5(GM) additional fire damage/level. (This will work in the same as the Thunder Hammer)

NOTE: One of these abilites could be enough. Not sure how much they will be worth in comparison to others.

======

Scholar (Order magic): Spell copying.

Allows the Hero to copy spells between spell-books, assuming one of the heroes have the spell and both are able to cast the spell. This copying happen automatically, when two heroes are placed in the same army/garrison.

Hero can make a Scroll or Parchment for any spell of level x at any external Shrine or Town Mage guild. x depends on expertise. Basic = 1, GM = 5. The Hero doesn't need to be able to cast the spell to make a Scroll or Parchment.

======

Willpower (Combat) Increases Hero's Morale and Luck.

For each level the Hero gets +2 Morale and +2 Luck.

Comment: heroes seems to always be the ones who have the worst morale, becuase the Leadership skill doesn't apply for heroes.

======

Negation (Tactics) Gives friendly creatures Magic Resistance.

Each level gives friendly creatures an additional 10% Magic resistance. This source for Magic Resistance doesn't stack with other sources of Magic Resistance. Chance to resist is checked separately, and for damage reduction it would work the same way as a magic dampener.

=======

Dodging/Blocking (Scouting) : The Hero gains the Blocking ability.

The chance for the effect is 10% at Basic level to 50% at Grand Master level.

Comment: Thieves should be agile so it makes sense that they can dodge or block blows directed at them.

=======

Reputation (Nobility) Untouchability and/or merchant.

Reputation works as a sanctuary for the hero but doesn't put limitation on hero actions. The protection lasts for a number of rounds which will depend on the level of the skill. Say Basic=1, Grand Master = 5, plus 5% per level of Hero.

Merchant: This skill improves the exchange rates when the hero visits on external Marketplace. It also offers a 5-25% discount when the Hero recruits creatures from dwellings (in town or on the adventure map.)

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Jenova
Jenova


Famous Hero
posted May 15, 2002 08:28 AM

Yes, I like the idea. It's disappointing that "Herbalism" and "Meditiation" while sounding cool in name, are merely just the same thing as "Healing" and "Spirituality" or "Enchantment" and "Wizardry".

They all basically increase the strength of spells and grant more spell points. I wish there were more diversity with the magic secondary skills. If you have two primary magic skills (like Order and Chaos), you are basically getting the same bonus to SP twice, which is unnecessary since you never run out of spell points anyway if you have a high enough Enchantment skill.

This peeve of mine is similar to the advanced hero classes. I would like the "Healing" skill to actually heal units in battle, "Meditation" should be a move or passive skill that gives some bonus in combat, etc. As it is, the only unique skill is the third secondary skill. The bonus to spell points should either be included into the primary skill (Chaos Magic for example) or be put into a new secondary skill. That way people who want it can still choose it, while people who actually want to learn "Herbalism" can create potions (or whatever it does).

I rarely take summoning, so adding extra skills would give more choices.

For an Archmage, there's not much point getting 3 skills that give bonus to spell points, since one or two is enough, yet they're all needed in order to advance the primary magic skills.
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Djive
Djive


Honorable
Supreme Hero
Zapper of Toads
posted May 15, 2002 05:47 PM

Quote:
Yes, I like the idea. It's disappointing that "Herbalism" and "Meditiation" while sounding cool in name, are merely just the same thing as "Healing" and "Spirituality" or "Enchantment" and "Wizardry".


Reminds me... Adding these skills there are four approaches:

1. Add them as a fourth secondary skill.
2. Add them as an alternative to the third secondary skill.
3. Add them as an alternative to secondaries which are not pre-requisites to the primary skill.
4. Allow three of the four secondaries in any one skill group.

I kind of doubt they will do 4. since that would require redesign of the pre-requisites of the exisiting skills. 1-3 is much more lenient here since all that is added is new requirements on the the primary to get study a certain level of the new secondary skill.

In the case of 3, there are only two skill groups that have more than one secondary which is not used as pre-requisties for the primary skill. These are Scouting and would apply to Stealth and Seamanship, and Combat where it applies to all the three secondaries. All the magic skills uses the same scheme so unfortunately in those cases it's always the third secondary skill wthat would be replaced unless the go for alt. 1 or 4.

Quote:
This peeve of mine is similar to the advanced hero classes. I would like the "Healing" skill to actually heal units in battle, "Meditation" should be a move or passive skill that gives some bonus in combat, etc. As it is, the only unique skill is the third secondary skill. The bonus to spell points should either be included into the primary skill (Chaos Magic for example) or be put into a new secondary skill. That way people who want it can still choose it, while people who actually want to learn "Herbalism" can create potions (or whatever it does).


I kind of agree to your comments on the magic skills, however, I don't think they'll change the effects of the two first secondaries since their main purpose is to ensure that you have to spend a lot of level-up promotions before you can increase the Primary skill.

On the other hand, you could wonder if there is any real benefit to have pre-requisites at all. If fighters can study combat to become overall invulnernable to physical damage at level 6 or so then why should magic users be restricted in attaining level 5 spells before around level 15.

The pre-requisites can be motivated for the first magic skill you study but seems to be a nuisance if you study 2 or 3, and this applies at least to number of spell-points.
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Largo_LeGrande
Largo_LeGrande


Promising
Known Hero
from the Carribean
posted May 15, 2002 06:51 PM

I like your skills. Merchant sound like my bargain but you probably haven't looked at it 'cos it in a topic whit another name. It also contains another off topic idea about riding and great idea about hero races (thanks darkspirit) and it should be checked out:

http://www.heroescommunity.com/viewthread.php3?FID=5&TID=4662&pagenumber=2

I think that one secondar skill more would be too much. My idea in that topic above is to make one might skill more to balance magic <-> might. It's thievery. Just go there and comment it. But your artifact and alchemy gave me one idea.

So I want to balance might <-> magic skills. I also want inferno out of necropolis. But if there would be inferno it should have new magic skill. Maybe Withcraft that is based on exploitation (voodoo image*, curse flow**, all the leeches, steal echantment). It's main secondary skill (like necromancy and summoning) would be demonology. The skill wouldn't summon normal demons (it would still be demonology+summoning) rather demon heroes. Basic demonology would summon just a low level (maybe 5) imp king and GM something really dangerous (balrog?). Only cost is that keeping a demon on the battle field cost mana every turn. If your mana ends and the demon is still on the battle field it would take the hero's hit points 10 times the mana cost and if the hero dies, the demon will get berserk.

But then again whit witchraft and that thievery in the another topic we would still need one more skill families to balance. And for it I got and idea from your alchemy: academic.

Academic - gives you more experience
Scholar - can copy spells from scrolls, learn spells from battle (eagle eye whit 100% prosent and the spell could be used in the same battle) and teach/learn spells to/from friendly heroes.
Alchemy - can make potions (there SHOULD be new artifact class: ingreditents),
Smith(ing) cab make artifacts (from ingreditents)

Sorry for this dumb post but...    

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darkspirit
darkspirit


Famous Hero
aka Zutus
posted May 15, 2002 09:14 PM

I think the new might skill group thievery would do best.
Change every secondary class made by scouting to thievery, and find out some new ones with scouting, the reason for this is the new riding skill that allows you hero to ride on horses in battle, doing more damage, jousting etc. and add stealth to the thievery group. together with gambling (increasing your heroes luck and morale) and bargain (decreasing unit/building cost)
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Cat
Cat


Honorable
Supreme Hero
Gonna Get Dirrty...
posted May 15, 2002 10:48 PM

Telekenisis (Order or Nature):- hero can learn spells inside new mage guild levels in the towns of his/her colour without returning to the town and from fellow heroes, replaces meditation as it also has the same effect, with the added bonus.

Enchant Item (Life or Order):- allows hero to enchant Items bought from blacksmith if they are of high enough quality

Spy (Chaos):- Removes FoW, to a certain degree and/ or allows hero to learn boarder passes when the tent has been visited by any colour.
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Djive
Djive


Honorable
Supreme Hero
Zapper of Toads
posted May 15, 2002 11:15 PM

Quote:
I like your skills. Merchant sound like my bargain but you probably haven't looked at it 'cos it in a topic whit another name.


The first Merchant idea on this forum is very old, so inspiration is not from your posts. There was also a imaginative topic about mounts a while back. (You can find it through the Altar index, it probably took up many of the ideas in your thread.)


"It also contains another off topic idea about riding and great idea about hero races (thanks darkspirit) and it should be checked out."

"My idea in that topic above is to make one might skill more to balance magic <-> might."

Well, you don't balance it with having as many skills. On the other hand you it doesn't add to imbalance either.

A hero will anyway only be good at two skills or so, and Magic useres are right now more or less forced to take Combat (if only as third skill)


"Academic - gives you more experience"

* This will be useless unless they rearrange the Xp table. Just as Learning is all but useless in H3.

"Scholar - can copy spells from scrolls, learn spells from battle (eagle eye whit 100% prosent and the spell could be used in the same battle) and teach/learn spells to/from friendly heroes."

* Eagle Eye is all but useless since the enemy caster must cast a spell you can learn, i.e. mirror matchup. Otherwise this is not too dissimilar frm what i suggested.

"Alchemy - can make potions (there SHOULD be new artifact class: ingreditents)"

"* This is a though I had myself. I didn'twant to make the ability too complex though."

Smith(ing) cab make artifacts (from ingreditents)

"* I made the artifice ability ignore ingedients to make it more simple. The idea has some merit though."

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Jenova
Jenova


Famous Hero
posted May 16, 2002 06:59 AM

How about with the Merchant skill, make it like the governor? You select the "Merchant" for the town, and whenever you recruit troops from that town you will get a discount even if the hero isn't there. Otherwise, it makes the skill not that useful, since most people rely on caravans for transport. It is like learning spells from a mage guild as you upgrade the levels.. Too cumbersome to bring the hero back every time you want to learn new spells.
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Stalefish
Stalefish


Bad-mannered
Adventuring Hero
Hero for Hire
posted May 16, 2002 10:38 AM

hmmm i really like the thing said here, are all really good idea's!
does anybody knows someone to create mod's? can be used for those idea's
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Biff_Justice
Biff_Justice


Hired Hero
Watch out, evil!
posted May 16, 2002 10:44 PM

Some good ideas, although many would have some balancing issues which I won't go into too much detail with here since it's just a wish list.

However, would adding even more skills really be a benefit to the game?  After level 15, or so, you need so much experience between levels that people are already having a hard time maxxing out more than one skill line in the campaigns, and usually can't even get one maxxed out in scenarios.  Adding a new line, while definitely granting more variety, would make getting to the higher levels of the skill lines even more difficult.

Someone mentioned in a different thread that they would like to see the amount of experience needed between levels be reduced, along with an appropriate stat increase reduction (I think it would have to be a major reduction to make up for the added skills you would be gaining), and I think this would be a good idea.  It would help raise player satisfaction, make using the skills more interesting, and also perhaps reduce the "invulnerable" hero problem at the high levels if the stat increases were reduced considerably.

If this were implemented, then perhaps more skills would be a good idea.  If and until then, though, they would be more of a distraction than an enhancement.

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sir_christian
sir_christian

Tavern Dweller
posted May 17, 2002 01:09 AM

Does anyone use potions at a rate as one might want to use a secondary skill to create them?! it would be as useless as estates, eagle eye, etc in homm3....
======


Animate (Death Magic) : Animates undead permanently.

DEATH TOWN HAS NECROMANCY! IT WOULD BE TOO UNFARE TO OTHER TOWNS!



Searing (Chaos Magic) : Gives hero Fireshield and increases damage.

.

WHY A HERO CANT CAST A SPELL FROM A SCROLL IF HE HASN'T THE APPROPIATE MAGIC SKILL???




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Djive
Djive


Honorable
Supreme Hero
Zapper of Toads
posted May 17, 2002 09:01 AM

"Does anyone use potions at a rate as one might want to use a secondary skill to create them?! it would be as useless as estates, eagle eye, etc in homm3...."


A good point. The skill must be accompanied with the possibility to sell Potions at Marketplaces, so at least you can turn the potions into cash (at worst).

======


"Animate (Death Magic) : Animates undead permanently.

DEATH TOWN HAS NECROMANCY! IT WOULD BE TOO UNFARE TO OTHER TOWNS!"


You might have misunderstood this one. The skill only works on units you had before the battle begun, so anything undead you create during combat is unaffected.

And the skill is also limited to raise to undeath half of your losses in a battle (at GM).

The skill is actually one of the weaker ones, since the likelihood that it actually kicks in is overall low.


=====

"WHY A HERO CANT CAST A SPELL FROM A SCROLL IF HE HASN'T THE APPROPIATE MAGIC SKILL???"

To prevent Might heroes to cast high-level Magic. That's the privilege of the mage.
____________
"A brilliant light can either illuminate or blind. How will you know which until you open your eyes?"

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Jenova
Jenova


Famous Hero
posted May 17, 2002 10:37 AM

Quote:
However, would adding even more skills really be a benefit to the game? After level 15, or so, you need so much experience between levels that people are already having a hard time maxxing out more than one skill line in the campaigns, and usually can't even get one maxxed out in scenarios.


It would be useful for the levels before 15..

Quote:
Adding a new line, while definitely granting more variety, would make getting to the higher levels of the skill lines even more difficult.


Not if they are made optional.. For example, summoning is an 'optional' skill because you don't need it to advance the other 3 nature magics. So the new skills could serve as other optionals to replace Summoning or Charm, or whatever. As long as you aren't forced to pick them, it would have no effect on the difficulty in getting to higher levels of the skill line.
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Biff_Justice
Biff_Justice


Hired Hero
Watch out, evil!
posted May 18, 2002 08:30 AM

Jenova:  Even if they were optional, they would still appear when you raise a level.  That would be what makes it harder to raise in skill.  I know I've had plenty of situations where I would want to raise, say, my Nature Magic skill, but the only ones to appear are three I don't want (for instance:  Summoning, Combat, and Melee.. just an example)

But, I'll stop being a naysayer and get into the spirit of things.

Alchemy:  I think it's a very good ability.  Balanced and useful.  If I had access to more potions without having to buy them, I would definitely use them more often.  There are many you don't have to wait for combat to use, you can just "prep" before hand.

Artifice:  I don't like the idea of heroes being able to make artifacts.  It has the potential to be unbalancing, and makes the ones you are able to find on the adventure map a little less valuable.

Animate:  Way, way too powerful.  Giving Death the ability to use both necromancy on an opponents troops after a battle, and being able to ressurect their own, as well, would make for too large of a force in too short of a time.  Maybe not a big deal with skeletons, but ghosts and vampires would become overwhelming quickly.  Plus, it would pretty much kill the "living" creatures in the Death towns.  Why get Venom Spawn and Imps (and, so on) when you can't use your skills on them?

Searing:  A decent idea, since it would be primarily mage types getting it.  But both is again, too much, I think.  One or the other would do it.

Scholar:  Seems a little weak compared to some of the others you've listed.  I would say they can pass on spells, and instead of the ability to create scrolls (what use would that really be?), give the ability to instantly learn any spell in your towns without having to visit the town (they would have to know the appropriate skill, of course, and your skill level would be the levels of the spells you can learn this way).

Willpower:  Not sure on this one, morale seems unimportant for heroes, overall, since they generally have the highest speed, anyway.  But, the luck is very useful.  It seems decent, but would have to see it in action to really decide.

Negation:  How do levels affect it?  You make the 10% check a number of times equal to the level of the skill, I assume?  Seems a decent skill.  I'd hate to be order or chaos going against this army, though

Dodging/Blocking:  I like it.  'Nuff said.

Reputation:  Open to abuse, I think.  Another I would have to see in action, but my first impulse is to say it seems to powerful.

Merchant:  Another goodie.  Especially for Order, who would be the most likely to get it.
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Djive
Djive


Honorable
Supreme Hero
Zapper of Toads
posted May 18, 2002 10:58 AM

Quote:
Jenova:  Even if they were optional, they would still appear when you raise a level.  That would be what makes it harder to raise in skill.  I know I've had plenty of situations where I would want to raise, say, my Nature Magic skill, but the only ones to appear are three I don't want (for instance:  Summoning, Combat, and Melee.. just an example)


That's true but if you made the additional skills exclusive, you would only get this problem until you've selected the skills at Basic. After that it would be th same.

If you do it as a fifth skill, then maps would just have to offer more forms of Tuition. Alternative, you would add afourth option at level-up.

"Artifice:  I don't like the idea of heroes being able to make artifacts.  It has the potential to be unbalancing, and makes the ones you are able to find on the adventure map a little less valuable."

I've a suspicion that it would take a fairly long time to make the artifact, because artifacts have an overall high value. The question being her if you really can wait say 3 weeks before your hero has completed it. Also since you uncover areas of the maps all the time, you have some chance of encountering the artifact on the map.

Anyway, for this to work there would need to be a possibility to exclude artifacts which are used for quests and similar from the list of artifacts that can be made.

"Animate:  Way, way too powerful.  Giving Death the ability to use both necromancy on an opponents troops after a battle, and being able to ressurect their own, as well, would make for too large of a force in too short of a time."

Actually, my feeling is that the use would be very, very limited. I very rarely get ANY losses at all when I attack with my Vampires. Restoring 50% out of 0 means restoring 0. The Vampires restore themselves.

The main use for this skill is due to the fact that necromancy doesn't stack so if you develope two necromancers, you would likely only want one to take Necromancy while the other would take something else.

For similar reasons I've found ressurrection to be of very limited use. The times it kicks are just too few for it to be really worthwhile.

"Maybe not a big deal with skeletons, but ghosts and vampires would become overwhelming quickly.  Plus, it would pretty much kill the "living" creatures in the Death towns.  Why get Venom Spawn and Imps (and, so on) when you can't use your skills on them?"

You get the living creatures when you want to mix armies of allied factions and not get the Undead penalty. The undead penalty is very annoying for your Heroes (assuming they are iether order or chaos aligned) as it will usually bring them below 0 Morale. I anyway, take the Imps over the Skeletons any day, because of Skeletons slow speed.

"Scholar:  Seems a little weak compared to some of the others you've listed.  I would say they can pass on spells, and instead of the ability to create scrolls (what use would that really be?), give the ability to instantly learn any spell in your towns without having to visit the town (they would have to know the appropriate skill, of course, and your skill level would be the levels of the spells you can learn this way)."

You're forgetting Parchment. Being able to cast spells for half cost is sometimes very useful. (Ok. Same magic users are unlikely to run out of spellpoints, but others are overall heavy in their use of spellpoints.) If you take away Parchment, the skill is one that you take for your own convenience.

"Willpower:  Not sure on this one, morale seems unimportant for heroes, overall, since they generally have the highest speed, anyway.  But, the luck is very useful.  It seems decent, but would have to see it in action to really decide."

Morale is probably the one you want the most. Leadership affects creatures and not Heroes, so having your heroes get -1 Morale or so is very common.

"Negation:  How do levels affect it?  You make the 10% check a number of times equal to the level of the skill, I assume?  Seems a decent skill.  I'd hate to be order or chaos going against this army, though "

Actually, the thought was that it would build to 50%, but would be checked seperately from other types of Magic Resistance.

"Reputation:  Open to abuse, I think.  Another I would have to see in action, but my first impulse is to say it seems to powerful."

This is probably too powerful. If we drop the 5% bonus per level it would make it more on par with other skills. One of the reason for it being powerful is that it is in the Nobility skill which otherwise has nothing to aid you in combat.

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Jenova
Jenova


Famous Hero
posted May 19, 2002 08:33 AM

I've always wanted to have 4 options on level up, 2 primaries and 2 secondaries. That way they can still keep shoving combat in your face (since it's so important to survival, blah blah) while offering the alternative new primary skill for those who are sick of being offered combat. And no one would have any more problems with combat. You won't need to seek a university or learning center to gain a non combat primary skill.
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Biff_Justice
Biff_Justice


Hired Hero
Watch out, evil!
posted May 19, 2002 07:09 PM

Quote:
I've always wanted to have 4 options on level up, 2 primaries and 2 secondaries.


That, I can heartily agree with.  Heck, the more you offer the more raising skills relies on strategy as opposed to luck.  Though, there is something to be said for forcing you to work with what you are given, too....
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sir_christian
sir_christian

Tavern Dweller
posted May 22, 2002 04:37 PM

=====

"WHY A HERO CANT CAST A SPELL FROM A SCROLL IF HE HASN'T THE APPROPIATE MAGIC SKILL???"

To prevent Might heroes to cast high-level Magic. That's the privilege of the mage.



What i ment was that if a hero has the scroll he doesnt have to understand the spell, just "spell" it!
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Djive
Djive


Honorable
Supreme Hero
Zapper of Toads
posted May 22, 2002 05:16 PM

Quote:
=====

"WHY A HERO CANT CAST A SPELL FROM A SCROLL IF HE HASN'T THE APPROPIATE MAGIC SKILL???"

To prevent Might heroes to cast high-level Magic. That's the privilege of the mage.



What i ment was that if a hero has the scroll he doesnt have to understand the spell, just "spell" it!


It's a matter of game balance.

I mean for the mage to be given something of the same magnitude of importance, you would have to hmm... gives him something that bestows on the Mage the benefits of Grand Master Combat, Melee, and Archery. This could perhaps be a Potion made by the Potion maker, or an artifact made by the Artificer.

A level 5 scroll works about the same way for the Fighter. It gives the aptitudes of three skills at GM level for nothing.

You do have Wands that give fighters the ability to cast spells, though the wands are for 3rd level spells or below.

All of these things are greatly imbalanced, the benefit is simply much too great when compared to other skills.

As it is now in H4 a Scroll simply allows the Hero to copy the spell to the Spellbook, when and if the Hero is able to learn the spell.

A Parchment allows a Hero to cast the spell at half the Spellpoint cost.

If you were to circumvent the restrictions for being able to cast a spell for a single level 4 or 5 spell, then you would have a relic class artifact. Doing so for every level 4 and level 5 spell you encounter???

(If I recall correctly the best Wands are Major artifacts.)
____________
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sir_christian
sir_christian

Tavern Dweller
posted May 23, 2002 01:02 AM

i agree we need some sec skills but this is not the problem!
the problem is that the player can't do almost anything for the heroe's evolution. the heroes al all the same : starting skill + combat! and if u get a prim skill u can't choose between sec skills. u don't "grow your own hero", for christ sake! i miss heroes specialities! i miss expert skill(in homm4 GM)! i miss undead only necropolis and dread knight! i miss old Orrin and Sir Mullich .i miss CHOOSING! skills!





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