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| Thread: Can Computer's Think? The Hard AI Theory |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 · NEXT» |
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Cat
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posted May 31, 2002 09:53 PM |
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Can Computer's Think? The Hard AI Theory
An interesting little modern philosophical problem i though certain people here might find amusing.
Ever since the creation of artificial intellegence (or AI), philosophers have been studying the concept of AI with interest. Several philosophers used the "soft AI theory" which states the brain is like a computer. However, the one's I wish to intresest you in are the "Hard" AI Theorists.. those who believe the brain is a computer...
Bourne out of functionalism, or the idea that the concept of "mind" is actually based on nothing but "functions" (programming). The functionalist Will describe a mental state in the context of it's relationship to other mental states and also it's effect on behaviour. This lead to the "soft" AI analogies- A computer is a collection of wires and circuits, known as "hardware". The programmes or "software" can be adapted to suit many different kinds of computer and are copied to the computer's memory using a series of instructions which are different for each computer, but which still result in the same programme. I hope you are all still awake.. 
The "hard" AI theorists, however, take this analogy one step further, claiming that the human brain is actually a computer and mind (understanding) is the software. Therefore computers can actually think (these guys never palyed against a 3do AI.. lmao). Some extream "hard" AI theorist even believe that thermostats can hold beleifs.. three, to be exact:- "It is too hot"; "It is too cold"; "It is just right". "Intellegent" computers, therefore, must be capable of higher functions and the equal of man.
Naturally, many people think this is thwe stupidest idea they have ever heard (thinking computers??) and set out to disprove the "hard" AI theory. A major criticism is that of "qualia" or "what it is like". A computer can win a battle against you, for instance, but it is unable to describe or appreciate the exhilerating feeling of "winning".
A more major criticism, however, is the Chinese Room analogy put forward by John Searle. Searle argued that a computer only gave an illusion of understanding an intelligence as it is only able to understand syntax and not scemantics. To illustrate this, Searle explained that in the form of the Chinese room. Imagine a person is put in a room with two small windows 'In' and 'Out', a basket full of Chinese symbols and a book of these symbols but has no knowledge of Chinese. If Chinese symbols are given to them through the in flap, they can look the symbols up in the book and find the corresponding ones which they can post throught the 'out' flap. The initial combinations of symbols are questions and those which they are posting out are answers. So even though they cannot speak Chinese, they are able to give coherent answers. To anybody outside the room, however, it would appear that the resident full understood Chinese. Searle argues that a computer programme would be in the same situation as the resident of the Chinese room. Therefore, the computer analogy cannot give a sensible picture of the psychial, as it does not take into account the difference between syntax and semantics.
I just thought anybody who can take the time to read that might be interested.. and I wanna hear what u guys think about "hard" AI... think I can guess
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 Diwethaf Gloau Sylw y Gymreag
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Dajek
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posted May 31, 2002 09:56 PM |
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No, Computers cannot think. The AI can only be created by cloning+computer tech, I think...
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Dismay
Known Hero
Dark Knight
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posted May 31, 2002 09:57 PM |
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Cat 4 red stars not enough for you?
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HALT
Known Hero
Knight of Justice
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posted May 31, 2002 10:01 PM |
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Hmmm my opinion: AI is mathematical processor that counts possibilities and choosing the best one. So I would not call it thinking. But on the other hand if you take human brain (you right) you can see it as biological computer. The only difference is that human CPU have higher possibility to make a mistake + so-called human factor. And I think makes a major difference between AI and human!
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Romana
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Thx :D
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posted May 31, 2002 10:01 PM |
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hmm.how about..the computer is a brain?
I mean the brain was here first..I'm having a hard time understanding how we got this far in technology anyways..
I mean when you think of it ..it's unbelieveble what we can do now..and we're not even "civilized"
that's just my opinion though
Sometimes i think about the future..will archeologist be digging for our bones also to see how we lived?
will they be astonished at what we could do at such an early stage of their history or will they just laugh at our ways and see us as we see the Neandertahls?
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matthy
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banned
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posted May 31, 2002 10:06 PM |
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i think that bs...computers cant think...they only try to copy what humans do. it was like Suaron and LOTR books: he couldnt create anything on his own, he was created by the allmighty EÄ...so he had to change things that EÄ had taught him... he mutilated elves, created orcs and so on. so EÄ is like a human programmer and a computer is like Sauron. Computers can only learn from humans and they cant think on their own...they just output what they have learned from humans. so what computers will at the best become is like a very soft AI... 
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HALT
Known Hero
Knight of Justice
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posted May 31, 2002 10:10 PM |
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Quote:
hmm.how about..the computer is a brain?
I mean the brain was here first..I'm having a hard time understanding how we got this far in technology anyways..
I mean when you think of it ..it's unbelieveble what we can do now..and we're not even "civilized"
that's just my opinion though
Sometimes i think about the future..will archeologist be digging for our bones also to see how we lived?
will they be astonished at what we could do at such an early stage of their history or will they just laugh at our ways and see us as we see the Neandertahls?
diffine "civilized"
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Lith-Maethor
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paid in Coin and Cleavage
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posted May 31, 2002 10:12 PM |
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au contraire...
computers can think... and as technology goes further they will get "smarter" by the minute... they may even have a great ability to learn on their own...
BUT... what comps will never achieve, is to FEEL... and that's the big difference...
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You are suffering from delusions of adequacy.
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Romana
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Thx :D
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posted May 31, 2002 10:17 PM |
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civilized can be many things..
I myself don't think making war and poluting is civilized..
And then there is that fact that we only use a small percentage of our brains
I think if we use the full capacity we will reach true civilisation..but that's not likely to happen in my lifetime or in those of my grandchildren..(if I'm lucky to have them that is  )
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HALT
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Knight of Justice
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posted May 31, 2002 10:18 PM |
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Quote:
BUT... what comps will never achieve, is to FEEL... and that's the big difference...
Why? How do you now whats gonna happen in say 500 years? Even 100? Look back humankind jumped in the field of technology from the horses an abacus to space ships and computer just for 100 years. May be it’ll be possible.
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matthy
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posted May 31, 2002 10:19 PM |
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so for that...
for getting an intelligent AI you have to build what dajek said: a human body with a computer brain sending signals. like pain would be programmed as abnormal destruction of body cells. then the computer will record what he did and will next time not repeat it...
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HALT
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Knight of Justice
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posted May 31, 2002 10:20 PM |
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Quote:
for getting an intelligent AI you have to build what dajek said: a human body with a computer brain sending signals. like pain would be programmed as abnormal destruction of body cells. then the computer will record what he did and will next time not repeat it...
its not Fell somithing its programming somithing
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Cat
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Gonna Get Dirrty...
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posted May 31, 2002 10:25 PM |
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Quote:
computers can think... and as technology goes further they will get "smarter" by the minute... they may even have a great ability to learn on their own...
BUT... what comps will never achieve, is to FEEL... and that's the big difference...
Yup.. the Qualia arguement.. thought a few more of you would have gone for that. A computer can say "this is a picture by Monet". But it cannot comment on the feelings a Monet inspires.
And to Dajek and Matthy, this has been tackled by the Epiphenominalist school which poses the idea that physical events can cause psychial events, but that psychial events cannot cause physical events. Wilder Penfield, a neurosurgeon, attempted to prove the epiphenominalist theory by scientific experiment. Penfield applied electrodes to exposed human brain tissue of consious individuals. The outcome was that the patients experianced a 'double consiousness', as they became aware of their immediate surroundings and also, concurrently experianced vivdly re-enacted scenes from their past. Penfield's conclusion was the 'if we liken the brain to a computer, man has a computer, not is a computer'. However, this was in response to a very different question... that of interaction.
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Diwethaf Gloau Sylw y Gymreag
http://aozos.com/phpBB2/index.php
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Romana
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Thx :D
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posted May 31, 2002 10:26 PM |
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hey I was just thinking ..and thought of Star trek..data
who's to say that won't be possible in the distant future ..or the docter hologram..
very interesting stuff
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Conn
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God slayer
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posted May 31, 2002 10:33 PM |
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Hmm...can computers think? Well, i think the most important thing here is to define "thinking"...
If you define it by being able to associate thoughts with feelings, then computers can't think...at least now they can't..who knows what's going to happened in the future?
If you define it by learning how to use different pieces of information to create something new, then i don't think computers can think, at least not yet...
As for the theory that even thermostats can think, in my opinion, that is wrong simply because they are not "thinking", they are just acting on the bases of some stimuly that have been programmed into them...they can not react to anything new...
And that leads me to my final thought...When computers will be able to face a completely new situation with decent results, i think you can say that they have learned how to think...
P.S Dismy, just what exactly is your problem?
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matthy
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banned
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posted May 31, 2002 10:41 PM |
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Dismay ignore conn, his just protecting her gf... or whatever they are anyway...whats the point of arguing about the future if we will see what comes anyway? live in the present!
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Romana
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Thx :D
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posted May 31, 2002 10:46 PM |
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well..it's not argueing..I just like to fantasize of what will come..it's interesting stuff to think aboutand i don't think I'll be around in say..about 500 years
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Cat
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Supreme Hero
Gonna Get Dirrty...
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posted May 31, 2002 11:08 PM |
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And also the mere notion of an "intellegent" computer in the sense that it posseses conciousness... is a sentient computer possible? Or does there have to be an extra ingredient? Some aregue that there is Mind, Body and "extra" (usually called "soul") and it is this extra which makes us sentient. A computer can have "mind" and "body" but can it have "extra"?
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Sir_Stiven
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banned
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posted May 31, 2002 11:31 PM |
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Quote:
Cat 4 red stars not enough for you?
Let me break something too you dismay, everything around this place isnt about red stars. To me nothing is to be honest but you just keep going and going about this. First u want QP just because u have made a thread that have some posts and then you complain at others when they actually have the brains to come up with something clever.
So, just realise that you dont have QP material in your posts so far and try to come up with something new. Humour often works to get QP:s ive seen so try something funny.
But for now you just make yourself look like a moron too whine about others getting QP:s while all you want is too get one yourself. And even if Catherine is getting many red stars it doesnt mean she wants them, id say its great that atleast a few ppl have the creativity to come up with something new to talk about. Because if everyone just whined and complained like yourself us tossers would have nothing to toss against. We are depending on some creativity so watch out about dissing the wrong posts
And with this im off course not saying that i think every post Catherine has gotten a QP for deserves but on the other hand it isnt my "job" to decide that either. To me her best post so far is the one that started football bar thread, and still she didnt get a QP for that one.
I still cant understand why some ppl are so desperate to get those QP:s. To me the whole system is wrong anyway, id say that those red stars should be more important. Like when your out of them youre out of here. And i also think that everytime a Moderator gives/removes a QP he should edit in a motivation why he did it. Not just give one away and no one knows why or who anyone gave it. But i guess it doesnt matter anyway since those stars are only there for the good of the eye, nothing more.
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"Youre zeroes and ones, youre wrong where im right"
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matthy
Disgraceful
Famous Hero
banned
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posted June 01, 2002 12:10 AM |
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ya know stiven...there was a time when when you got a qp or lost one, your post was formatted like a quote and below it was Moderators Comment: this kind of behaviour is not tolerated etc. god knows why they removed it...
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