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| Thread: Science or religion? (for those who still enjoy a civilized discussion) |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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Romana
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Thx :D
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posted June 19, 2002 10:49 PM |
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Edited By: Romana on 19 Jun 2002
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Human cloning could have good things..like we'd have an endless supply of organs for people who need them..but there also the question of morals..I mean..is it right to create a "living beeing" only for that purpose..will it have feelings..a conciousnous?
I just don't think we're ready for it yet..
as for what scientology is..you can find a lot of sites dedicated to it..I don't belong to the church.
Scientology is not authoritarian. There is no enforced belief. Rather, a maxim in Scientology is that only those things which one finds true for himself are true. In Scientology one learns to think for himself – it is a voyage of self-discovery.
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The darkest skies show the brightest stars
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Snogard
Known Hero
customised
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posted June 20, 2002 09:55 AM |
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let me try to define it "scientifically":
if "science" is X,
then "religion" is X',
and "I" am X + X',
geddit?! 
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Seize The Day.
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Conn
Responsible
Famous Hero
God slayer
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posted June 20, 2002 10:15 AM |
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Good, good...Now would you like to explain why you think that way? 
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 Whatever does not kill us, only makes us stronger
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god_boy
Known Hero
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posted June 20, 2002 10:21 AM |
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Quote:
Science is cool, but scientists are always fighting.
maybe, but there has never been a war over science.
religion on the other hand, what about the crusades, in which thousands were slaughtered because of religion.
even now, in the middle east, much of the fighting is religion based.
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I walk in the shadow of the valley of darkness, yet I am unafraid, for You are with me.
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god_boy
Known Hero
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posted June 20, 2002 10:38 AM |
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here's a thought -
We're always going on about how cults are bad, but are religions just cults which have gone too far? No offence intended to all christians, but is jesus just an ancient cult leader, crucified when authorities exposed his schemes, while his followers concocted a story to justify his death?
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I walk in the shadow of the valley of darkness, yet I am unafraid, for You are with me.
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SubZero
Adventuring Hero
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posted June 20, 2002 12:58 PM |
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Nowadays...
It seems that people believe that science is the ultimate truth. Because science hasn't proven that God exist people make Gods of themselves when compared to "nature" around us:
"We have gone this far...just look those miracles we have uncovered, so aren't we demi-gods at least if not the faces of God itself?"
There's "the old religion schools" how true moral teaching you can find the "right way of living".
And then there's those new age religions about spiritual growth.
Just don't fall into cheap trickery of any of those swindlers.
For me science isn't search for the God but research of God itself, nature.
We are parts of nature, weak and brutal animals. But because we have high believes of ourselves and because we are social and want to feel be part of something bigger, through other people we believe into different instutions like religion and science.
I can simply say that I don't give flying sack about institutions.
I gather my own information to my head and keep my faith in my heart.
Maybe this was just one more of "non-egoistic egoistic" message from me.
I just believe that:
"the God is the greatest magician of all time"
And we are falling to the trickery of paradox.
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The only Zen you find on the top of mountains is the Zen you bring up there.
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HeyYou
Known Hero
and beloved food provider.
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posted November 11, 2002 07:14 AM |
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The answer to all of your questions:
I am God.
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"Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity."
~ Hanlon's Razor
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johnsone79
Hired Hero
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posted November 12, 2002 03:00 AM |
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For my view of stricty science vs. religion read the earlier thread. As for the question of is science a religion. I find this a matter of definitions. If you define religion as belief in higher beings that control things then science is not religion. If you define religion as faith in some unproven dogma then I think science is a religion. The greatest assumption of science is that what we observe is what truly is. I pose the question, what if all those crazy people that see other things are actually seeing reality and we "normal" folk are the ones hallucinating? On a less philosophical level, science is becoming more of a faith based system. We must have faith in what others say they have observed. We must have faith that all this fancy instrumentation we have is actually showing us the truth and working properly. Yes people have done all sorts of studies with electron microscopes and gene sequencers to show how they work and that it truly works, but if you've ever tried to sequence something and seen how many times you can get random garbage you might begin to second guess.
I am a scientist and use this stuff to make all my inferences, but what if by some horrible mistake someone way back when misinterpretted some observation and by crazy fluke everything has worked so far based on that even though it was wrong. It is no less likely than the fact that we exist and are here discussing this today with all the chances of the earth being the right distance from the sun and the right chemicals being formed by volcanoes, solar radiation, and lightning and the right combination of those chemicals coming together to become life. Just some random thoughts about science.
Now for the human cloning issue. This is completely an ethics question and not a science question. One must realize that science has no ethics or morality to it. Science is just a way of making observations and trying to get knowledge from those observations. It is left to the scientist to bring in his ethics and morals to his research to decide what should be done and what shouldn't. Personally, I do not like the idea of human cloning. First of all, cloning in its present state is far to inefficient to try. It creates far more strange birth defects than healthy clones and not only that the clones age and die as if they were the age of the animal that was the source of the DNA. So if someone made a clone of a fifty year old male the clone could be expected to live 25 to 50 years. This is so long only because such things as heart attacks would not be a problem. The genetic degredation that leads to dying of "natural causes" would still take effect and prevent a full lifespan. If we could solve this problem we could just as easily make existing people live forever, so what would the purpose of cloning be. I fear that cloning and knowledge of peoples genetics will lead to the next round of racism in a new form. I am very hesitant to move forward in that realm of science. Maybe that's why I study plants, bacteria, and fungi instead of humans and animals?
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privatehudson
Responsible
Legendary Hero
The Ultimate Badass
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posted November 12, 2002 03:17 AM |
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Quote:
I am God.
Good time for some answers then!
Why was kennedy shot? (full explanation please, with details of the full conspiracy)
Who will win the English Premiership this year?
Did Hitler commit suicide in 1945, and where is his body/remains?
Who was Jack the Ripper (full REAL name and biography please)
Do aliens exist and where are they from (as in from outer space, not immigrants)
Do ghosts exist?
And most important of all........ Why the hell is RMS so obsessed with cheese?
Hope you can help, you are omnipotent after all
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We're on an express elevator to Hell, goin' down!
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bort
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Discarded foreskin of morality
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posted November 12, 2002 06:43 AM |
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Edited By: bort on 12 Nov 2002
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Quote:
We must have faith in what others say they have observed.
Well, theoretically, the "methods" section is so you can try to reproduce the experiments.
Quote:
Yes people have done all sorts of studies with electron microscopes and gene sequencers to show how they work and that it truly works, but if you've ever tried to sequence something and seen how many times you can get random garbage you might begin to second guess.
Oh come on, you know as soon as you see the printout whether or not your reaction worked. You get maybe 1 or 2 "N" or misassignments per run. Plus, that's why you do bidirectional as well as multipass sequencing. Sounds like someone had to explain to his PI where all the money ws going... (kidding! kidding!)
Quote:
First of all, cloning in its present state is far to inefficient to try. It creates far more strange birth defects than healthy clones and not only that the clones age and die as if they were the age of the animal that was the source of the DNA. So if someone made a clone of a fifty year old male the clone could be expected to live 25 to 50 years. This is so long only because such things as heart attacks would not be a problem. The genetic degredation that leads to dying of "natural causes" would still take effect and prevent a full lifespan.
Hmmm... well, I don't like the idea of cloning either, but this isn't really a moral argument against cloning as theory. Basically, what you're saying is that because it is impractical now it is immoral in the future. Theoretically, these problems could be solved simply by the use of telomerase and histone modification enzymes. Would that make it right?
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If we could solve this problem we could just as easily make existing people live forever, so what would the purpose of cloning be.
Well, I don't know if the "purpose" of cloning is immortality (except in the really macabre organ bank aspect of it). I think people realize that the clone isn't going to have one's memories and (one liner to see if OT actually scans these like he claims he does : Most tasteless joke ever? Baby seal walks into a club.) that the clone will actually be a separate person. Also, assuming one can eventually reverse epigenetic effects or telomere shortening in an embryo, it doesn't necessarily mean one can do the same thing in an entire adult. (or, it will take considerably longer to develop the technology)
Quote:
I fear that cloning and knowledge of peoples genetics will lead to the next round of racism in a new form.
That's really the key point, isn't it?
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Drive by posting.
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dArGOn
Famous Hero
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posted November 12, 2002 07:28 AM |
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AVALLACH great to see ya....thought you had left for good...I miss all your excellent posts
Bort you must read CS Lewis...one of the best thinkers ever. Check out Mere Christianity one of my top 2 favorite books
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bizud
Known Hero
Mighty Donkey
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posted November 12, 2002 08:10 AM |
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umm, I don't want to sound stupid, but isn't scientology that thing that requires you to pay money and take tests to "gain enlightenment" or something? Like, tell me if I'm wrong, because I hope I am, because that's really really scary.
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bizud
Known Hero
Mighty Donkey
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posted November 12, 2002 08:26 AM |
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Anyway, my opinions about science and religion:
If a particular religious belief is true, then science will prove it eventually. Science isn't an ethos, it's fact. Formulating a hypothesis, testing it, and then coming to a logical conclusion.
Example: Hypothesis: Ice melts at 0º centigrade. Let's test that.
Test: Heat ice to 0º. Hey, what do you know, it melts.
Conclusion: I fail to reject my hypothesis that ice melts at 0º.
Notice that I didn't "accept" my hypothesis. Since science is based on the assumption that nothing is ever CERTAIN (i.e., there's always a 0.00000000001% chance I could be wrong), you either reject it or fail to reject it.
Anyway, that's called the scientific method, for those who don't know. And, that's ALL SCIENCE IS.
Anyhoose...
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HeyYou
Known Hero
and beloved food provider.
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posted November 12, 2002 04:02 PM |
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Always a test, isn't there?
Quote:
Why was kennedy shot? (full explanation please, with details of the full conspiracy)
Who will win the English Premiership this year?
Did Hitler commit suicide in 1945, and where is his body/remains?
Who was Jack the Ripper (full REAL name and biography please)
Do aliens exist and where are they from (as in from outer space, not immigrants)
Do ghosts exist?
And most important of all........ Why the hell is RMS so obsessed with cheese?
1. Kennedy was shot becuase I decided it was time for him to go. End of story. There's your conspiracy.
2. I haven't decided yet.
3. Yes. Rotting in the earth.
4. A myth.
5. Yes. Other solar systems.
6. Define "ghost."
7. I've been wondering that myself . . .
Hope this helps.
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kaiser
Tavern Dweller
für das Vaterland
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posted November 13, 2002 04:27 PM |
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Quote:
Who will win the English Premiership this year?
Arsenal, as long as they sack Seaman
As for the cloning debate, i seem to be one of the few who is in complete support of it and want to see the research spearheaded. I think the sooner we have replacement organs and the ability to live longer the better.
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HeyYou
Known Hero
and beloved food provider.
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posted November 13, 2002 04:56 PM |
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On ice . . .
Actually, the freezing and boiling points of water vary with pressure. Just thought I'd add that.
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Snogard
Known Hero
customised
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posted November 14, 2002 06:08 AM |
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Quote:
the sooner we have the ability to live longer the better.
Hmmm... care to elaborate?
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Seize The Day.
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god_boy
Known Hero
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posted November 14, 2002 10:39 PM |
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Quote:
Quote:
I am God.
Good time for some answers then!
Why was kennedy shot? (full explanation please, with details of the full conspiracy)
Who will win the English Premiership this year?
Did Hitler commit suicide in 1945, and where is his body/remains?
Who was Jack the Ripper (full REAL name and biography please)
Do aliens exist and where are they from (as in from outer space, not immigrants)
Do ghosts exist?
And most important of all........ Why the hell is RMS so obsessed with cheese?
Hope you can help, you are omnipotent after all
and what will be tonight's Lotto numbers?
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Conn
Responsible
Famous Hero
God slayer
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posted November 15, 2002 12:09 AM |
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Quote:
I am God.
Geez! And you couldn't have said something earlier?  I mean, c'mon, i could've really used those Lotto numbers last week...the prize was 1.000.000$( a bit over, but who's counting? ) Now, some other guy won that prize...
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Whatever does not kill us, only makes us stronger
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HeyYou
Known Hero
and beloved food provider.
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posted November 15, 2002 09:10 AM |
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Oh ye of little faith . . .
I don't mess with the lottery. Takes all the fun out of it.
Even I like surprises now and again.
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"Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity."
~ Hanlon's Razor
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