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Mordred
Adventuring Hero
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posted May 25, 2001 08:02 AM |
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Edited By: Mordred on 25 May 2001 06:22
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Health Levels
I know there might be a lot of opposition to this idea as it increases the complexity of the game, nut personally I think it is very do-able and it enhances the game.
The idea:
Hit Points: Hit Points represent the damage a creature has to take to drop it one level of health.
Health Levels: Perfect (Undamaged)/ Hurt (taken hit points in damage)/ Crippled (Taken hit points in damage twice)/ Dead (Taken hit points in damage 3 times)
Effects of health levels:
Perfect: No change to stats
Hurt: Damage cut in half, speed cut in half
Crippled: Damage is 0, speed reduced to 0
Dead: Well, there dead!
Effects on the stack:
Since unhurt creatures can help hurt ones, the effects are averaged (rounding up)... for instance you have a stack of 10 pikemen... 5 in Perfect Health, 3 Hurt and 2 Crippled. Base Damage is 3-5 and speed 4. Modified it becomes Damage 2-4 and speed 3.
How Health Levels are Shown:
The bar that shows the number of troops is color coded to show the rough % of Perfect/Hurt/Crippled... Red for Crippled, yellow for hurt and green for Perfect. You can get the exact numbers of each by right-clicking for the stack's info.
How Damage is done: No longer will "health remaining" be shown, either enough damage is done to drop at least one creature by a health level... or no damage is done. However, that remaing damage has a chance to inflict an additional level of damage... the chance is equal to "damage remaing" out of "Hit Points".
Healing is now more effective: Healing spells and first aid tents now are much more useful, as they can affect a larger number of troops in a stack.
Who get hurt?: Typically when damage is done (or when you heal), the damage levels (or healing levels) are applied randomly throughout the stack... causing injuries and casualties with equal chance. Certain Skills (Maybe Tactics, but also First Aid for healing) can allow you to change this, making it more likely that you Injure/Cripple or Kill.
Undead don't feel Pain: Undead and other non-living troops such as golems aren't affected the same as living troops... when Hurt they have 2/3 Health and speed... when crippled they still have 1/3 health and speed.
Spliting your Forces: When you split you forces, you'll have a toggle to split away only those of a certain health level or better. Also, when you dismiss a troop, you'll also have a toggle to dismiss only troops of a certain health level or below. Thus you can keep your "fighting" stacks healthy, and if need be, drop you injured to regain speed. This also allows you to easily drop off troops at a castle (or leave them at a certain point) so that they may heal while your hero carries out it's tasks.
Healing Between Turns: Each turn of rest allows your troops a 50% chance to heal a full level (That's each creature not stack!), if in a castle then that chance doubles (with or without a first-aid tent). If you stay still and have a first-aid tent, chance is 1.5x. If you move during that turn and have a first-aid tent chance is 1.0x. If you move during that turn w/o a first aid tent the chance is cut in half. Healing spells can be cast on the adventure map, and heroes with first aid improve this chance as well (Base chance is +10% per fist-aid level, at 5 levels this makes base chance 100%)... if the chance goes over 100% then the troop automatically heals one level, and the % over 100 is a chance to heal a second level (if needed). Finally, speed on the adventure map will be slowed down by injured troops... but those who are crippled are counted as having a speed of 1 not 0. Also, Ressurection would raise the dead but their health status (crippled/Hurt/Perfect) would be based on both Power level (for the hit-points needed to raise the health level of the troop) and Skill proficiency (only Masters could Ressurect troops to perfect health).
I want to know what you think about this idea... comments welcomed!
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arachnid
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted May 25, 2001 01:31 PM |
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um why do you feel the need to complicate heroes so much? Theres no real need to do this at all. This just seems to me another thing to try and make heroes more realistic which is not needed since its fantasy anyways.
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Mordred
Adventuring Hero
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posted May 25, 2001 11:23 PM |
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I'm sorry, but I don't understand why people jump to the arguement of "It's too complicted" when a new idea is set forth. This idea is not complicated, there is pratically nothing new you have too do... but it does allow for new options. The only thing I can think of that might give it the apperance of "complications" is that I set the idea forth in detail (including the computational detail that the COMPUTER does... not you!).
The only things that would be new to the player are:
1) Healing spells would now be useful (Currently there only useful on 6th and 7th level creatures... occasionally)
2) Heroe's with the appropriate skill can choose to attack to injure (weaken stacks), cripple (incapacatate) or Kill. Thus you can determine the STRATEGY best for you and the situation (but you don't have to, you can just allow the default RANDOM damaging effect.)
3) You'll need to take care of your troops on the adventure map, maybe take a turn of camping to heal or dropping some injured troops (no need to dismiss... as troops no longer need a hero in homm4). This is a good thing, too often when two fairly equally matched heroes meet one wins with signifagant losses. But the way things work now, that hero is now free to run through enemy territory with out anything the enemy can do, thus conquering a player is all about a single fight. This way, while your troops are healing you'll need either a "back-up Main Hero" or you'll need to pull back for safety. This gives the opponet a "chance" to recover... They are still gonna be weaker, but atleast they have a chance if they play smart.
4) Now stacks of lower-level troops have a better chance vs. higher level troops. Before you'd have to kill a dragon before you'd see a loss in the damage the stack inflicts, now if you manage to injure it... you'll see a drop in it's abilities. These "steps" between Healty and Dead give more of a fighting chance to lower level creatures.
5) That's it... there's nothing else. All the stat calculations are done by the computer, and are given to you in the familiar "Speed: 6(5)" lines, where the number in "()"'s is the modified number... modified for hero stats/skills, artifacts, terrain, and now health.
What's too complicated? I see nothing new that you have to do, only new options! Please don't think that I'm attacking you, I'm not... I'm just defending my points.
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raZor_X
Promising
Known Hero
The mysterious Warlock
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posted May 26, 2001 07:17 AM |
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Well I kinda like the existing health levels.
raZor_X
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arachnid
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted May 26, 2001 01:19 PM |
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Edited By: arachnid on 26 May 2001 07:22
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I know it wont be hard to add but it does not seem to add much to the game in either fun or strategy i dont see how its needed. So to me its just added for the sake of adding something. Maybe you can explain more what this will add to the game in terms of strategy?
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Mojo
Hired Hero
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posted May 26, 2001 11:01 PM |
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Iffy....
I like it but I don't...
The idea is good, but I wouldn't always want it as a default. I think the idea should be able to be toggled on or off when starting a map. I also have another question, what about wandering creatures? I think that the idea is good but shouldn't be default.
On a second note, Heroes should have something called Advanced Play, where options like this can be toggled.
Mojo
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Mordred
Adventuring Hero
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posted May 26, 2001 11:32 PM |
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Edited By: Mordred on 26 May 2001 17:36
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ok, let me try to explain the additional stratigies again:
HEALING: With the current system of health, healing spells (cure) and first-aid are almost worthless, if it wasn't for the fact that cure also removed spells, and that high level creatures have a lot of hit-point (and usually smaller stacks) they would be completely useless. With the system that I'm proposing, a stack after it takes damage won't have just one injured creature... but several, with fewer "kills". Thus healing spells and first-aid become very useful (add'l healing spells would be available, and cure would increase in level.), as you have a chance to affect a large(r) portion of the stack... not just the top creature.
SPECIAL DAMAGE EFFECTS: Thinks like poison and death stare can now effect the entire stack, not just the creature on the "top". Although the effects would have to be lessened, these abilities become much more important regardless of the size of the stack you use it against. (How useful is poison vs. a stack of 100+ right now? Not very.)
STRATEGY OF ATTACKS: A new secondary skill (or Tactics if no new one is added, or the "ability" can be default) can allow you to change your armies attack style to "Injure" (You'll effect a larger # of troops, their stats WILL be affected... but kills are reduced), to "Cripple" (Stack are attacked to attempt to render them incapacitated, if your winning you can still "clean-up" afterwards) or to "kill" (Your damage affects the least # of creatures this way, but your rate of "kills" goes up)... Thus you have several new strategies for combat... A main hero might try to incapacite, then clean-up the field once the battle was one (but you risk ressurection, or if you lose... then their troops will recover eventually).... A hero trying to stop some one from advancing on a castle might choose to "Kill", thus the army WILL be lower in power once it get's to the castle gates.... if another hero is around that can win this fight, but just out of range, then you might "injure" to slow down the oncoming army so your more powerful hero might intercept them. Perhaps your only worried about a particular stack of fliers, you may attempt to kill just them... then injure the rest to slow them down, maybe you'll concentrate to cripple the fliers, so when enemy arrives at the castle they will have to stay outside of the walls. There are a lot of options here, depending on playing style and situation, and can easily be switched during a combat by clicking on the hero and selecting one of the four options "Random", "Injure", "Cripple", "Kill".
BETTER ODDS FOR STACKS OF LESSER TROOPS: Large stacks of low level creatures now have a better chance against small stacks of higher level creatures.... as they only have to inflict a portion of the damage they use to in order to reduce the abilities of that higher level creature.
PLANNING: The final "strategy", is actually the logistics of keeping your army healthy... what will you do? Waste a turn or two camping so your troops might heal after a hard battle.... will you dismiss your injured? (and will you have enough troops to carry on?) or place them into wandering stack so you may pick them up later? (They'll be very vunerable to even enemy scouts)... Perhaps you'll use mana to cast a few "heal" spells! And what if you've just taken out a powerful enemy hero... but your in their territory? Is it safe to stay, will you be able to hold on to your victory? or will an enemy hero come to claim vengence for his fallen comrade?
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Another concept I would like to see added, that is in the same vein as "Health Levels" is the "One Shot, One Kill" rule... Each troop would have a "size", when being attacked only 5xdefender's size worth of attacker creature size can actually damage the defender (Okay, their are 500 skeletons vs. 20 minotaurs... how many skeletons could actually hit that minotaur per turn?) Fliers can attack in 2x the amount of numbers. Archers don't count vs. this max number BUT each can only hit one creature per "shot" fired (some can hit more... cyclops's throw big boulders!) However, the reverse is also true... each troop in melee can only strike a certain number of troops... say 2, there are some exception like "area effect" attacks (Dragon's breath, lich's death cloud, etc.)
So that 500 Skeleton vs. 20 minotaur fight would work a bit diffrent than before, since only say 8 skeletons can attack the minotaur at once (the minotaur is bigger than the skeletons... say 50% bigger, thus 5x1.5=7.5, rounded up to 8), and the minotaur can only kill 40 Skels per turn...
This becomes an even more important idea since heroes can now fight in combat, this "restriction" would reduce the damage large stacks can do to a hero in a single turn... thus keeping heroes alive longer, without making them "supermen/Superwomen"
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Mordred
Adventuring Hero
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posted May 26, 2001 11:49 PM |
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Wandering Monsters.... Hmm, hadn't though about it... But I would say that they also get "hurt", but heal diffrently inoreder to reduce memory usage by the computer... All that are crippled, stay that way until the next day (Where they are then "hurt"), all creature heal to perfect health on day 1 of the week. So you could "wear down" a powerful stack with a few heroes if need be.
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Mystery
Famous Hero
Hatebreeder
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posted May 28, 2001 10:37 AM |
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Nice idea
Its a nice idea but make it simpler, all units recover after a fight. And it should be like this: Instead of damaging the top unit in a stack, the units could do damage to the whole stack and at each stack that u look at u will see something like: 20 pikemen - ??? att, ??? def, 5 crippled, 3 hurt, 12 healthy (?), and the whole stack's stats will be rounded up. And it will always be random, and will depend on the amount of attacking units and the unit, for example, a dragon does area damage with his breath, so he would probably hurt or cripple more of the stack, a wyvern could poison some members of the stack, also something I don't like is that a dread knight for example, is attacking 20 peasants and kills them all, it shouldn't be because no matter how strong he is, he cant kill 20 peasants with one blow, so he should kill 1, and hurt some others but not all of them.
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D3@th t0 Fals3 m3Tal!
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lovedoc
Hired Hero
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posted May 28, 2001 11:04 AM |
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Specifie!
O.K. I´ve read your post and I think I understand your idea.
I like it but you are about as oragnised as my sock drawer, which is baaad.
If you want my support and I think many more do a thorough explanation of your ideas and present them understandibly.
E.g. Hurt stack
blala HP
blada hurt etc.
What counts as hurt, what is injured, how will the fighting be affected, how will you prevent casualiteis effecively. Give examples of, say, Behemoths injuring Hydras.
Post or doublepost it in my thread "post races/units/other crap". I´m trying to gather good ideas and make them into a file that can be sent to 3do later. If we get enough good ideas and support it just might work.
Moderator's note:This topic has been closed, as it refers to an older version of the game. To discuss Heroes 3, please go to [url=http://heroescommunity.com/forumdisplay.php3?FID=6]Library Of Enlightenment[/url], to discuss Heroes 4, please go to [url=http://heroescommunity.com/forumdisplay.php3?FID=17]War Room Of Axeoth[/url].
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Life´s a snow and then you marry one...
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