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Heroes Community > Tavern of the Rising Sun > Thread: Whinging and whining LOL!
Thread: Whinging and whining LOL! This thread is 3 pages long: 1 2 3 · «PREV / NEXT»
Cat
Cat


Honorable
Supreme Hero
Gonna Get Dirrty...
posted July 15, 2002 01:51 PM

I agree tht persistant spammers should have flood protect increased, as they present a great annoyance.
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Dar_Kraven
Dar_Kraven


Bad-mannered
Adventuring Hero
Finally Sober
posted July 15, 2002 01:52 PM

Now i Will Admit That i have made a Few Bullsnow posts....But you ***** Like Andi and Moter, Dont have to go Trying to Start something here. Just ignore it, and it will go away.....AND GET THE **** OFF MY BACK!!!!!
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Sir_Stiven
Sir_Stiven


Honorable
Legendary Hero
banned
posted July 15, 2002 01:56 PM

Quote:
What is a +QP Post
What is a -QP post?
What is a Good Post?
What is a bad Post?
Does it matter The content of the Post?
Or Does No matter what the post is, People will Discriminate it?
Or maybe, It just matters by Who Posts what posts?

I THink i will go with that last Thought......



Hmmm actually i concider this a good post, since i myself would like to get some answers about this too.

And talking about personal insults, isnt trying to raise some kind of a "lets ban Andi&motor" mob a directly personal insult aswell?

I would like some concisteny here please and i think a -QP is in order. First talk about keeping peace here and then start something like this off in public that he knows will trigger one hell of a discussion? This is begging for a penalty if you ask me.

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Celfious
Celfious


Promising
Legendary Hero
From earth
posted July 15, 2002 01:58 PM

I dont know..

Spam is something people dont want to see? A reocouring essence or entity which majority grow's tired of. Is this right?

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Cat
Cat


Honorable
Supreme Hero
Gonna Get Dirrty...
posted July 15, 2002 02:04 PM
Edited By: Cat on 15 Jul 2002

What is a +QP Post This is one of HC's "better posts", one that has kept the community alive, been thoughtfully planned or even sparked an important thread debate.  The top 3% I think, to split hairs.  These are subjective.  You will get no QP's for simply copying another members ideas.

What is a -QP post? This is a post which breaks any of the rules in the HC FAQ.

What is a Good Post? A good post is one that is thoughtful, sensible, humourous to most people, strikes a choard with most people, makes an excellecnt point

What is a bad Post? Spam, profanity, deliberate rule breaking, something simply dull and boring.

Does it matter The content of the Post? What do you think?  Yes, it does. Content of a post shows the content of you character and the organisation of your thought patterns.

Or Does No matter what the post is, People will Discriminate it? To a degree, discrimination is everywhere.  However, if I was to post something truely stupid, I would be told. It is up to you to make a name for yourself as a high standard poster, not up to me or anybody else.

Or maybe, It just matters by Who Posts what posts? To a degree, yes, but when a *good* post is made by anybody, it generally gets acclaim.  
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Sir_Elric
Sir_Elric


Responsible
Famous Hero
Having a bad hair day.
posted July 15, 2002 02:12 PM

Why not have a 1 thread per red star per day limit?
If this is possible with the scripting.
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Sir_Stiven
Sir_Stiven


Honorable
Legendary Hero
banned
posted July 15, 2002 02:27 PM

Quote:
What is a +QP Post This is one of HC's "better posts", one that has kept the community alive, been thoughtfully planned or even sparked an important thread debate.  The top 3% I think, to split hairs.  These are subjective.  You will get no QP's for simply copying another members ideas.

Wow then i should have tons of those red stars, sparking up threads seems like my speciality and im hardly copying someone since i always seem to be the only one that thinks like i do lol

Quote:
What is a -QP post? This is a post which breaks any of the rules in the HC FAQ.

I disagree, it shouldnt have to be. As Dar_Kraven obviously has showed us the Code of Conduct has lots of glitches. If QP penalties are only to be applied from FAQ then atleast the Code Of Conduct needs some more conditions to get em.

Quote:
What is a Good Post? A good post is one that is thoughtful, sensible, humourous to most people, strikes a choard with most people, makes an excellecnt point

Or you could just have written "look at Sir_Stivenīs post for examples"

Quote:
What is a bad Post? Spam, profanity, deliberate rule breaking, something simply dull and boring.

What is dumb to you might be the best post ever written to another person, we are all different and have different views of things. Everything is relative.

Quote:
Does it matter The content of the Post? What do you think?  Yes, it does. Content of a post shows the content of you character and the organisation of your thought patterns.

Trust me, it doesnt have too. So if Oldtimer for example all of a sudden started to act like a mass murderer he would be a mass murderer then?

Quote:
Or Does No matter what the post is, People will Discriminate it? To a degree, discrimination is everywhere.  However, if I was to post something truely stupid, I would be told. It is up to you to make a name for yourself as a high standard poster, not up to me or anybody else.

Agreed, just follow my example and you will be a top standard poster here too.

Quote:
Or maybe, It just matters by Who Posts what posts? To a degree, yes, but when a *good* post is made by anybody, it generally gets acclaim.

No comments, dont wanna trigger something off here now

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Cat
Cat


Honorable
Supreme Hero
Gonna Get Dirrty...
posted July 15, 2002 02:39 PM

I didn't think it would be fair on everybody else to show you as an example of excellence which they could never possibly aspire to
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Djive
Djive


Honorable
Supreme Hero
Zapper of Toads
posted July 15, 2002 02:57 PM

When a poster, any poster, posts a lame thread, the that thread is a dead horse.

There is no reason to keep it alive by posting to it. There is no need to post thread killers to it. It's already dead.

Do not respond to lame threads. You only give them life.

While some members are annoyed with Dar Kraven, Dar Kraven similarily has reason to be annoyed with them. In many of his threads (whether it's a poor thread or a good thread) someone throws it off topic by dismissing the topic as bad. In other words: thread killers are posted to his threads.

For this reason some of Dar Kraven's threads are no doubt a reaction to the inhospitable treatment he gets. By giving attention to his threads you only make it more likely that he will make more of the same type. And what reason does he have to make a good thread when they are also thrashed?

If on the other hand HC members kept their peace then Dar Kraven would likely very quickly post less topics that annoy, and the Mods would delete these topics after a few days (provided they are lame; good topics will remain).

Believe it or not, but if HC members stopped posting in Dar Kraven's poor threads he would soon be posting stuff with the same quality as the average HC member. The share of lame topics would be reduced (due to lack of attention), and the share of good topics would increase.

All of Dar Kravens threads are not bad. I've seen a few which had potential to become good threads. Thread killers were posted to these also.

As for trying to kick out members:
In my book it's -QP offence to ask anyone to leave or to try to kick them out by posting to that effect on the board. No matter how you go about it. This protection applies equally to Motor, Andi and Dar Kraven (and the rest of the HC members). All you can do is to report their offences to Mod Squad and Admin. It's then their job to decide on actions and take them.

"What is a +QP Post"
-Usually, you need to make a few good posts before you get a +QP. You won't get a +QP for every posts that deserve it.
-HC doesn't have 2% QPs which is the guideline in the FAQ. It's more like 0.1-0.5%.

What is a -QP post?
-QP is given only for breaking the Codes of Conduct.
-Sir_Stiven: gibberish, spamming, flaming and lamers are not allowed according to FAQ. Do you really need more rules?

What is a Good Post?
-This is subjective to each member. There are very few posts that each member would agree is Good.

What is a bad Post?
-This is also subjective to each member.

Does it matter The content of the Post?
-Yes, it does. It also matters who reads it.

Or Does No matter what the post is, People will Discriminate it?
-There is never any guarantee that people won't discriminate a post.

Or maybe, It just matters by Who Posts what posts?
-Who posts should ideally not matter. Only the post itself and who reads it. In practise, though, it sometimes matters who makes the post. One thing that will inveitably matter is if the poster is Member, Mod or Admin, but it tends to matter beyond this distinction.
-For my own part... Who posts generally affects what I read and reply to. Who posted usually doesn't affect what I think of the posts I read.
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Sir_Stiven
Sir_Stiven


Honorable
Legendary Hero
banned
posted July 15, 2002 03:14 PM

Quote:
What is a -QP post?
-QP is given only for breaking the Codes of Conduct.
-Sir_Stiven: gibberish, spamming, flaming and lamers are not allowed according to FAQ. Do you really need more rules?


Define "gibberish"
Define "spamming"
Define "flaming"
Define "lamers"

And yes, if these definations shows a lack in something i do think we need more rules.

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Celfious
Celfious


Promising
Legendary Hero
From earth
posted July 15, 2002 03:21 PM
Edited By: Celfious on 15 Jul 2002

Djive.. No one but sir stiven could've said it better. LoL
Djive, what suggestion's do you have for the community? Where can we find life? Do you think genises is the only way? I read over some old thread's. So full of life. I dont see that now. It's like music kind of. Music has rebirth into new styles and sound's.

I'll be blunt. Some form of rebirth is needed to get life back into HC. Otherwise everything will seem like the same thing over and over.


http://heroescommunity.com/viewthread.php3?TID=1339

It's the second award show. All the rest were garbage. Not for any reason other than what? What are the reason's? I know 2.
1: crytical, closeminded, stereyotyping, fighting and wineing
2: age

I for one will contribute whatever effort I can to make newbies welcome, and contribute to the community, only what I wish to have from the community.
All it take's is some willing, and aware people. Pass the goodness this way. I'll pass it that way.
Generation's.
I'm saying you be the parent we'll be the child. Old timer be grandpa. LMAo.. I hope one person understand's.
its the only way.




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AndiAngelsla...
AndiAngelslayer


Disgraceful
Famous Hero
posted July 15, 2002 03:22 PM

sir elric: why i come here? to toss between h3 turns for example, to have some fun making fun of some geeks like kraven...
Cat: motor doesnt defend me, he just wants to have some fun too or make fun of you, cant you see it?

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Dar_Kraven
Dar_Kraven


Bad-mannered
Adventuring Hero
Finally Sober
posted July 15, 2002 03:25 PM

Quote:
? to toss between h3 turns for example, to have some fun making fun of some geeks like kraven...



We are All Geeks......Look at it this way......we are online, Commenting on a Computer Game, and Fighting like two  yr olds
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Djive
Djive


Honorable
Supreme Hero
Zapper of Toads
posted July 15, 2002 03:44 PM

Define "gibberish"

=> This is a message that doesn't make any sense at all. Posting in foreign languages all across the board is one thing which is covered by this rule.

Define "spamming"

=> This is excessive posting, combined with that the fact  that the posts contains nothing of real interest. Though in contrast with gibberish, the posts does makes sense. That is posting to increase post count.

Define "flaming"

=> Flaming is an attack on a person for something that person said. Do notice that 'attacking' an opinion is allowed and even seen as good for the forum as this promotes good discussions.

Define "lamers"

=> There are posts who are there primarily to annoy other users or the mod/admin. Posting silly things or posting in all caps both enter this category.


Also notice that for most of these, you would usually get away with 1-2 messages of each type before you get a warning and a few more before you get a penalty. However, you should never count on getting a warning. If a post is very bad then a penalty could be applied without warning. And if you post senseless posts in 50 threads before the moderator logs on, expect to get one  or more penalties straight away. Anyway, that's the way I would do it if I was a Mod.
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nidhgrin
nidhgrin


Honorable
Famous Hero
baking cookies from stardust
posted July 15, 2002 03:47 PM bonus applied.


Lol, here we go again!
Why can't we just all get along...  tears jumping to my eyes
Hehe.  Grab a beer, sit back, enjoy.  Share your thoughts with the other kreezie people here at the HC.  Getting frustrated, feeling anger or even rage bubble up?  You do feel the urge to attack or insult people?  You feel offended yourself and want to give someone what he/she deserves?  Mind goin kill, kill, KILL evryboddy, yaaaah!  Grab a beer, sit back, enjoy.  Doesn't seem to help, you're still boiling with anger?  Seeking for vengeance, blood must flow, raaaah!  Then bang your head hard against the wall, or just move your keyboard out of the way and whack your forehead against your desk.  Still mad?  You haven't hit your head hard enough.  Proceed until you're calm and feeling all dizzy and happy again.  Ah, better.  After that...  Grab a beer, sit back, enjoy.  Share your thoughts with the other kreezie people here at the HC.  Works fine with me, mi brains like to think otherwise sometimes.  But hey, concussions are going to save the world some day!  I know because, well I just know, okay.

Why are there rules?  Why can't we use the 'f' word and other possibly harmful phrases.  Well as Cat mentioned, there are members who are easily offended, and filthy talk like ****, *****, and ****** is just no good for children to read.  They pick it up and start using it more frequently, including me, look there are three such words in the previous sentence, o no.  Oh, wait, I'm not a kid.  Eh, or maybe I am, guess it's no good for senile people as well.  Banging heads against walls and desks is taking it's toll after a while.  I know kids use a lot of words they often don't even understand the meaning of, stunned me when I came to that insight.  sighs, what has happened to the world during my intergalactic voyage to the stars  Anyway, things would quickly result in complete kAoS if there weren't any rules around here.  And I believe the rules there are aren't that restrictive.  If you feel limited, then just have a beer, sit back, enjoy.  Hiccup, dzat dudnut wo'k, then ya now...  Ouch, that hurt, hic.

To all ya rebels mobbing around here.  Sure is fun to speak bad of people with authority or status.  They're like public p|$$ poles, nice to work your madness out on.  Easy targets, but they're not hired to solve your misery.  then who do I turn to, col (crying out loud)  someone listen to what happened to me when I was born, they dropt mi on mi hed and it never came right again...  Sorry folk, lost it there for a sec  Policemen, politicians, celebs, ...  yeah even mods.  These people do make mistakes, give em a break.  There only human, you know.  At least some of them are (though I'm not technically sure about that).  They dedicate a good deal of their spare time to try to improve the HC and the way people behave on it.  Respect them for it.  Even if they're not always right.  Got any comments for them?  IM them about it, I'm sure they'd appreciate it much more than having to read another post complaining about a -QP or the locking of a tread.  When you create posts to complain about their actions, of course there'll be people supporting you.  And people raising their voice in favour of the mods.  Here is that, if you get a -QP star or another type of penalty or negative remark, contact the person who did.  Either by mail or by using IM.  If you can explain why you wrote something the penalty may even be withdrawn, think about that!  Creating a post and dragging others into the quarrel will only make matters worse.  Say a police officer is just about to give you a parking fine, you get up to him and start complaining about neighbourhood criminality and the police not doing their job.  Most definitely you'll get the ticket and maybe a second fine for insulting an officer.  On the other hand, if you explain why you were a bit too late the fine may get seponated.  At least I always try!  You may think of this as slimey and me licking policemen's heels, okay maybe you've got a point but what if I don't have to pay the fine by being friendly and polite.  Where does that leave you if you get mad at them and even have to pay extra?  Then again, I was born as an ***lickin kriminal babeh, can't do nothin about it.  And I luv it, o yeah.  Woehahahaha!


To summarize I'd like to say this.  Confront anger and unfriendlyness with peace and kindness, or just don't reply to it at all.  That's not being a coward, it's just being smart.
Respect the rules (well, more or less at least) or do not, but in that case expect punishment to follow and enjoy it.  Increasing flood protect to incredible levels or banning members are drastic measures, only to be done to members who post porn or directly insult others and don't learn from their mistakes.  I don't think Andi and Motor have behaved bad enough to deserve this.  Though floodprotect, maybe...  Hehe.
Give them mods a break, especially Valeriy.  She's not paying to keep this site online, only to read people freaking out and almost killing each other.  I myself can't afford to pay for my own site, so it goes down almost daily as I reach my allowed free bandwidth.  Imagine what'd happen if this were the case with HC?  Going down let's say daily at 2pm, catastrophy indeed...  Where could I turn then to insult other people, lol.
To continue about the mods, I know I haven't been a member for that long, but I've been interested in becoming a mod myself.  I will however never solicitate for an application as mod, simply because I lack the time.  These people spend several hours here daily!  I think that's impressive.  If they wouldn't monitor things around here, then who would?  Do you really think you would make a good mod?  Can you commit yourself to do it, are you responsible enough?  If so, then contact the mods and tell them you'd want to help out.  If not, then just let them do their jobs and try to act as responsible as you can yourself.  You're not the ooh, I'm mr/mrs responsable kinda person, then just chill, slug it out in a heroes 3 (grrr wherez that ******* mp patch) map online if you really want to give someone a punch in the ego.  There's a good part in everyone, that's right!  Even in you and you and you.  Even I have a sane and good side, somewhere below layers of wackyness.  It's actually an orange fluffy rondent kinda thing with huge red ears in my case (I've seen it once in the mirror, very early in the morning, but I'm sure I saw it, really sure.  It had big blue eyes, yeeesh!).  This community would be a better place if people brought out their rodent, eh good side a little bit more.  Don't allow people to get you frustrated too easily, they don't deserve it to see you mad.  Let them try, it's their problem, but stay kind to everyone and kindness you shall receive in return.

And remember...  When things are heating up, your teeth start cluttering, steam starts bursting out of your ears, relax.

Grab a beer, sit back, enjoy!


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~Vegetables don't spam~

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bort
bort


Honorable
Supreme Hero
Discarded foreskin of morality
posted July 15, 2002 04:07 PM
Edited By: bort on 15 Jul 2002

Ooo!  Me too!  I want in!

Most of its been said already.  I'll just say that:

1.  If there wasn't a Hexa, Mr. Schaff, Mr. Slayer and Mr. Stiven would have to invent him.  Personally my only problem with him is that he hasn't found a stable site to put the member pictures up on yet...  (seriously though old chap, you're doing a bang up job).

2.  Okay, I'll admit it... I'm against any sort of thread limiting on the basis of qp beyond the one already in place with floodprotect.  One of my guilty pleasures is reading spam.  I'm serious.  You know all of those "Larger Mr. Happy in 7 days if you buy our herbal product" messages you get on your hotmail account?  We post the best ones in the lab for all to enjoy.  I actually thought the "How Cool am I" thread was kind of funny.  HOWEVER - something remarkably similar to the Credit Card Tavern was done by me 4 or 5 pages ago ("getting to know eachother").  If you're going to waste server space at least be original about it.

3.  I respect if this is going to be a no profanity board.  All things considered it's probably better, even if it does just force people to work around it and say p_r**_anity or whatever, it slows down people who can't communicate if the word doesn't have 4 letters.  I'm not sure if I agree with all of the words that are forbidden, though.  For instance "p****" is a clinical term it isn't an obscene word.  What are we supposed to do?  Call it Mr. Winky?

4.  The only thing I think should be banned outright is the insistence of people to alternate between capitals and lowercase YoU KnoW wHAt i'M taLKiNg aBoUt.

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Sir_Stiven
Sir_Stiven


Honorable
Legendary Hero
banned
posted July 15, 2002 05:29 PM

Quote:
Define "gibberish"

=> This is a message that doesn't make any sense at all. Posting in foreign languages all across the board is one thing which is covered by this rule.

Define "doesnt make any sense at all"

Quote:
Define "spamming"

=> This is excessive posting, combined with that the fact  that the posts contains nothing of real interest. Though in contrast with gibberish, the posts does makes sense. That is posting to increase post count.

Define "contains nothing of real interest"

Quote:
Define "flaming"

=> Flaming is an attack on a person for something that person said. Do notice that 'attacking' an opinion is allowed and even seen as good for the forum as this promotes good discussions.

Define "attack a person"

Quote:
Define "lamers"

=> There are posts who are there primarily to annoy other users or the mod/admin. Posting silly things or posting in all caps both enter this category.

Define "Posting silly things"

I think you have understood my point by now Djive, facts are that all of these terms are relative and most of them are subjective aswell. There are no set definations for most things. And i guess it would be tough to write exactly where the line goes for whats allowed and not. But if Moderators are only to act by Code of Conduct these issues will arise.

As i see it there are two options:
1) Mods are to act more on their own, even if something isnt specially mentioned in CoC they can still give a penalty for it. This will require an awesome concistency though because if certain things get penalties and some not there will be issues.

Or as i think things are now:
2) Mods can only act after FAQ/CoC and therefor both FAQ and CoC will require some new stuff. Myself iam starting to getting alittle annoyed by this frequent thread starter but that might only be me...anyways i think if you go on and let ppl start threads like this and you expect people to ignore them you are attacking the problem once again from the wrong side. Why should all of us adapt when he could easily be stopped by setting some special flood protect or something like that?
Point is that there obviously are some glitches in FAQ if he can keep doing this without penalties to come.

To me option #1 seems like the better choice, if the moderators is to keep the right balance and concistency that is. Because if thats the case there wont be as much fighting around, so we could just sit back and relax like our new n00b preacher told us too...

[DISCLAIMER: This wasnt meant as a personal attack on Valery because i said that FAQ could be improved..it was me giving ideas how to improve it, This wasnt me saying that the mods dont know how to do their job...it was me giving some ideas on how to make the job easier for them in my opinion, This is not me flaming Hexa between the lines...which means this post aint a personal attack either so you can stop hoping now ]

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Djive
Djive


Honorable
Supreme Hero
Zapper of Toads
posted July 15, 2002 06:36 PM
Edited By: Djive on 15 Jul 2002

Quote:
I think you have understood my point by now Djive, facts are that all of these terms are relative and most of them are subjective aswell.


Yes, this is the nature of rules. They are written using terms which are relative. How to interpret them are subjective.

It doesn't help to add more rules. They too will be subjective in the same way.

Quote:
There are no set definations for most things. And i guess it would be tough to write exactly where the line goes for whats allowed and not. But if Moderators are only to act by Code of Conduct these issues will arise.


As I see the Mods have the right of interpretation to the rules. It's almost impossible to follow all the rules all the time, so some leniency in applying the rules is required (especially if the transgression is minor).

Myself, I'd like to see Mods take actions which are more visible. Only the Mod will know that an IM has been sent to warn a member. However, if members overall is to know where the border-lines are then Mods need to be a bit more pro-active in their doings.

Also all transgression need not lead to penalties. In many cases it can be a better solution to delete offending posts or threads, and then send in a message that the posts / threads was unacceptable.

Quote:
Myself iam starting to getting alittle annoyed by this frequent thread starter but that might only be me...anyways i think if you go on and let ppl start threads like this and you expect people to ignore them you are attacking the problem once again from the wrong side.


The problem is not starting threads. If a poster can't start threads, posting will happen in exisiting threads instead. That may actually be worse if the poster is destructive. Instead of getting the bad stuff in separate threads, you'll get them all over the place probably destroying the good threads also.

Quote:
Why should all of us adapt when he could easily be stopped by setting some special flood protect or something like that?


There's a problem. You can't penalize somebody for something that has not yet done.

Quote:
Point is that there obviously are some glitches in FAQ if he can keep doing this without penalties to come.


If the topics are really bad they would fall under "gibberish" and so it is possible for the mods to penalize them. All that is needed is for a Mod to decide that now it's one bad topic too many.

I will not comment on a special case. It's up to the Mods to decide on a case to case basis where the line is to be drawn.
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"A brilliant light can either illuminate or blind. How will you know which until you open your eyes?"

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Cat
Cat


Honorable
Supreme Hero
Gonna Get Dirrty...
posted July 15, 2002 06:45 PM

The point of a code of conduct is that it is open to interpretation and not cut- and -dried rules to live by.

Equally, the Mods are chosen due to the fact that their interpretation of the Code is similar to the interpretation of Valery, our admin.  If you think of the mods as the metatron of HC, then their interpretaion, like it or not, is the one we have to go with.

There may be holes and large ambiguities in the Code.  Maybe you would like to list these for us, so they can be patched.  Nobody is infalible, and the code of conduct is often amended.  If you can think of better phrasing and amedments, please post them.  I for one would definately like to see them.  but there is no point saying "oh, it doesn't work" if you don't intend to fix it.

Also the view of moral philosophy can be brought in.  This is an exream example, based in the real world, but you cannot, say, assult somebody and then say "well, there were no laws to prevent this".  An individual's conscience should place it's own boundaries... for instance, murder is obviously wrong.  The only people without consiences are actually metally ill.  since I hope nobody here is that far gone, we should all me able to hear that moral voice in our heads.
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bort
bort


Honorable
Supreme Hero
Discarded foreskin of morality
posted July 15, 2002 07:24 PM

Another, side point is people need to be aware of the economy of swearing rules.  Basically you lose the effect if every other word is made up of little asterixes (asteri?  What's the plural of asterix?).  Kind of like the way that Osama Bin Laden declaring holy war on somebody doesn't really mean that much any more since he called for a Jihad against a plate of corn muffins this morning.  On the other hand, if the Buddhists declared a holy war on me, I'd sit up and take notice since whatever I did it must be REALLY bad.
Take Oldtimer for instance - for all his sarcasm and irreverence he very rarely actually swears in a post (I can't recall a single instance myself).  Thus, if he were to call me a snowing moron.  I'd have to go examine the post I had made since clearly what I said was way over the top stupid or offensive.  On the other hand, if Mr. Slayer were to call me a snowing moron I'd shrug it off since, once again, he referred to a plate of corn muffins as a snowing moron a few days ago.

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