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Wolfman
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Insomniac
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posted November 09, 2007 02:05 AM |
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Edited by Wolfman at 02:05, 09 Nov 2007.
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Thanks for contributing to the discussion in a civilized manner. I bring up a point and you dismiss it without thinking. It's all about perspective. In WWII people were not freaking out at 4,000 because 6,603 soldiers died on D Day alone. People back then wanted to win the war, they wanted to defeat their enemy. Today people want to tuck their tail between their legs when things get rough.
I'd join the military too, so don't pull that card, however I have other jobs for my talents.
I'm not belittling its importance, just saying it's a matter of perspective.
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Moonlith
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
If all else fails, use Fiyah!
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posted November 09, 2007 02:09 AM |
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Speaking of perspective, you believe this war is important in the context that it is honestly because Bush & CO care about bringing peace and democracy (forced) and freedom to the world? 
Or were you simply swayed already because he claimed it is to protect the great and glorious USA?
After all, when it's about protecting the USA, no cost is too high, of course.
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted November 09, 2007 02:10 AM |
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There's another major difference between WWII and Iraq: WWII was a necessary war that started when we were attacked by Japan's military. The "War on Terror" started when a few thugs with no connection to any country hijacked four planes, and crashed three of them into three buildings. Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11. But we're making the situation worse. Our foreign policy caused 9/11. Our foreign policy lacks foresight. Look at what's happening in Pakistan now! Remind you of anything? How about the Iranian revolution? We never learn from our mistakes. We should get out of Iraq because we're just creating more enemies.
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Eccentric Opinion
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roy-algriffin
Supreme Hero
Chocolate ice cream zealot
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posted November 09, 2007 02:23 AM |
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Youve already created an enemy in their eyes so theres no point to get out now.
You cant get your cake back after youve thrown it away.
Besides that 4,000 is honestly not that large a loss considering its the milatary. What do you seriously think that people join the army to laze around and eat cookies?
World war two was indeed more neccasary. But then back when the towers fell down there was a damn big outcry. The casualties there wee big as well
Edit: to quote wikipedia
U.S. stocks lost $1.2 trillion in value for the week[
/i]addition to the 19 hijackers, 2,974 people died as an immediate result of the attacks
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"Am i a demon? No im a priest of the light! THE BLOODY RED LIGHT"
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Moonlith
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
If all else fails, use Fiyah!
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posted November 09, 2007 02:41 AM |
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Edited by Moonlith at 02:41, 09 Nov 2007.
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Quote:
Youve already created an enemy in their eyes so theres no point to get out now.
You cant get your cake back after youve thrown it away.
Besides that 4,000 is honestly not that large a loss considering its the milatary. What do you seriously think that people join the army to laze around and eat cookies?
World war two was indeed more neccasary. But then back when the towers fell down there was a damn big outcry. The casualties there wee big as well
Edit: to quote wikipedia
U.S. stocks lost $1.2 trillion in value for the week[
/i]addition to the 19 hijackers, 2,974 people died as an immediate result of the attacks
So what are you saying? That all Americans are that childish that they demand immedeate represailles against a random guy? That one being Iraq?
Face it, 9/11 gave the American Government full support from its country to invade Iraq - which OBVIOUSLY had weapons of mass destruction. Coinsidense? I think not. Bush had different motives for causing a war in Iraq, he and his friends couldn't give a single cent about those 3000 people, the 4000 soldiers, and the masses of innocent Iraqees dying.
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roy-algriffin
Supreme Hero
Chocolate ice cream zealot
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posted November 09, 2007 03:10 AM |
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same thing youd say if he hadnt done anything at all that day. And face it . He had a terrible decision to make that day. Attack iraq, and face people like you calling him an idiot or do nothing at all when they killed so many people and destroyed so much of the economy. and get called uncaring and an idiot anyway.Not to mention that the situation in iraq and isreal would worsen.
Bushs approval rating rose to 87% the second he said he was attacking iraq.
So yeah if you said you didnt want to attack iraq you were in the minority. Not to mention i bet some people were just voted negative because they didnt think it was smart for it to happen in the first place.
What makes you think it Wasnt iraq anyway? they deny so many things that are true .
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"Am i a demon? No im a priest of the light! THE BLOODY RED LIGHT"
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted November 09, 2007 03:21 AM |
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Quote:
Youve already created an enemy in their eyes so theres no point to get out now.
If we formally apologize for our mistakes and get out, perhaps our relationship will improve. But if we retain our arrogant attitude, nothing will change.
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You cant get your cake back after youve thrown it away.
Yes, but it's not necessary to throw any more cakes away. Nor is it necessary to spit at the baker.
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Besides that 4,000 is honestly not that large a loss considering its the milatary. What do you seriously think that people join the army to laze around and eat cookies?
We should try to minimize our losses. And we should stop our soldiers dying in vain in this useless and unwinnable war. How can you fight a war against a tactic? A war on terrorism makes as much sense as a war on trench-building.
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World war two was indeed more neccasary. But then back when the towers fell down there was a damn big outcry. The casualties there wee big as well
Edit: to quote wikipedia
U.S. stocks lost $1.2 trillion in value for the week[
addition to the 19 hijackers, 2,974 people died as an immediate result of the attacks
Yes, but there's no need to make additional casualties.
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Face it, 9/11 gave the American Government full support from its country to invade Iraq - which OBVIOUSLY had weapons of mass destruction.
Let me state this clearly once and for all. IRAQ DIDN'T HAVE ANY WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION. Why didn't he use them against us when we invaded? We went in, and guess what? WE DIDN'T FIND ANY! "But what about the documents that showed that Saddam Hussein was buying yellowcake uranium from Niger?" you may ask. Those documents were forged. This war is nothing more than an excuse for the military-industrial complex to eat up our taxpayer dollars and for the government to come closer to an authoritarian state. Israel is probably the only beneficiary of our foreign policy. We don't benefit, nobody except Israel and a few people in the government and a few contractors benefit.
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Bush had different motives for causing a war in Iraq, he and his friends couldn't give a single cent about those 3000 people, the 4000 soldiers, and the masses of innocent Iraqees dying.
I agree here, though.
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Attack iraq, and face people like you calling him an idiot or do nothing at all when they killed so many people and destroyed so much of the economy. and get called uncaring and an idiot anyway.
Al-Quaeda planned 9/11. It had nothing to do with Iraq at all.
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Eccentric Opinion
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Shadey
Adventuring Hero
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posted November 09, 2007 04:46 AM |
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Just to point out.
The wars in Iraq and Afghanistan are going to cost nearly 2.7 trilion dollars. That's more improtant than fixing the nations collapsing bridges and providing insurance for children in low income families.
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Moonlith
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
If all else fails, use Fiyah!
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posted November 09, 2007 02:08 PM |
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Quote:
Quote:
Face it, 9/11 gave the American Government full support from its country to invade Iraq - which OBVIOUSLY had weapons of mass destruction.
Let me state this clearly once and for all. IRAQ DIDN'T HAVE ANY WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION. Why didn't he use them against us when we invaded? We went in, and guess what? WE DIDN'T FIND ANY! "But what about the documents that showed that Saddam Hussein was buying yellowcake uranium from Niger?" you may ask. Those documents were forged. This war is nothing more than an excuse for the military-industrial complex to eat up our taxpayer dollars and for the government to come closer to an authoritarian state. Israel is probably the only beneficiary of our foreign policy. We don't benefit, nobody except Israel and a few people in the government and a few contractors benefit.
My comment was Sarcastic, obviously 
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Wolfman
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Insomniac
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posted November 09, 2007 03:58 PM |
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Hindsight is a wonderful thing. At the time, US intelligence showed Iraq having WMD's. So did France, Germany, Britain...everyone. The French and Germans were against it, not for some moral reason, but because they had illegal contracts with Saddam. Why would they want to lose money by breaking the contracts?
When US troops went in, they found French weapons being used by the Iraqis. True story.
But all this talk about should we have gone in is unproductive and irrelevant. What the discussion should be now, is how/when to get out.
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Moonlith
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
If all else fails, use Fiyah!
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posted November 09, 2007 04:16 PM |
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French weapons? First time I heard about that. I DID hear about the CIA having trained the Taliban though.
Question: were you pro or con invasion of Iraq back in 2001?
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Wolfman
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Insomniac
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posted November 09, 2007 05:50 PM |
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http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A16142-2004Oct7.html
That's the most relevant article I could find quickly. I remember it was on CNN, Fox, MSNBC, all of them when it was found.
I assume you meant 2003 and yes of course I was for it. Saddam breaks the rules over and over and over again with no "serious consequences" as it was said would happen in UN resolution 1441. He killed his people without remorse. And at the time, everyone thought he had weapons. Everyone did.
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted November 09, 2007 09:54 PM |
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Back in 2003, I was against the war. I opposed it from the start.
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Eccentric Opinion
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Moonlith
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
If all else fails, use Fiyah!
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posted November 10, 2007 09:21 AM |
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Quote:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A16142-2004Oct7.html
That's the most relevant article I could find quickly. I remember it was on CNN, Fox, MSNBC, all of them when it was found.
I assume you meant 2003 and yes of course I was for it. Saddam breaks the rules over and over and over again with no "serious consequences" as it was said would happen in UN resolution 1441. He killed his people without remorse. And at the time, everyone thought he had weapons. Everyone did.
No, perhaps the goons that consider Fox News a reliable source and buy everything it cites thought so, but the masses around the world did not.
It's called fear tactics by the American Government. Surprising isn't it, all you are doing it repeating what Bush and CO claimed. "Saddam this, Saddam that..." Please.
"Saddam Breaks the Rules"... If there's ONE country in this world that breaks Rules and human rights, it's the USA.
You know what the overload on patriotism and American flags and American pride remind me of? Nazi Germany.
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted November 10, 2007 02:37 PM |
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lol Faux News.
Nah, the US isn't like Nazi Germany yet. If we get another Republican (other than Paul or McCain), we might go in that direction, however.
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Eccentric Opinion
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roy-algriffin
Supreme Hero
Chocolate ice cream zealot
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posted November 10, 2007 08:29 PM |
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Quote:
No, perhaps the goons that consider Fox News a reliable source and buy everything it cites thought so, but the masses around the world did not.
Bushes approval rating did soar to 87% that day i repeat. You were in a minority. So i guess 87% of america is goons right?
It's called fear tactics by the American Government. Surprising isn't it, all you are doing it repeating what Bush and CO claimed. "Saddam this, Saddam that..." Please.
What fear tactcis? People felt better at home knowing that theres an army other there.Saddam did do a lot of terible things too,
You know what the overload on patriotism and American flags and American pride remind me of? Nazi Germany.
Go on, Try studying the halocaust stories. I dare you to. And if a time machine is ever invented id dare you to tell the germens you were a jew in 1944 see how similar america is too nazi germany.
My opinion remains that bush didnt have that many options at the time. And despite all that he chose the popular one like any politician would. And leaving iraq to do would result in far mroe loss of life, just not for you. at the moment it seems bush is obviously the moral center of america if everyone thinks the best thing to do is to leave iraq and leave it in chaos. No maybe you should leave after you do something properly. Or maybe you should reconsider and use a better strategy. But instantly leaving is just cowardly and stupid.
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antipaladin
Promising
Legendary Hero
of Ooohs and Aaahs
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posted November 10, 2007 09:47 PM |
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i dont know about germany,but i agree living iraq now for america is pointless.
most americans think just like mv,its not our beef so we shouldnt stick our toes in it.
why did america did that? For moral reasons,for tkaing the peacekeepers position since 1918. and if not america what would happen? israel would have been counqerd? i know some of you have no problam with that,but i do feel something wrong is when entire middle east is under the controll of a dictator that is also working on religouse factors,do you really want WW3? if no,Devide and Counqer are best,and its what bush is up to now.
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types in obscure english
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Moonlith
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
If all else fails, use Fiyah!
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posted November 10, 2007 11:28 PM |
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Bushes approval rating did soar to 87% that day i repeat. You were in a minority. So i guess 87% of america is goons right?
Yes, 87% WAS goons. 87%, in America perhaps. Not in the rest of the world. I'd really love to know how high his approval rating is these days in America.
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What fear tactcis? People felt better at home knowing that theres an army other there.Saddam did do a lot of terible things too,
"People felt better... " That's the whole point. They felt unsafe. Why? I've seen documentaries of local retards claiming they think their local Walmart in the middle of nowheresville could be a potential target for Terrorist attacks..... Seriously? That's called the effect of fear tactics.
I've seen clips of Americans claiming they would even SUPPORT the invasion of FRANCE if it meant keeping America safe.
And again you're coming with the whole "Saddam did this and that" indoctrination. Yeah he may have been bad. But regardless what Fox news tells ya, Iraq is even MORE a mess now than it was under Saddam. Congrats, Freedom-bringers.
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Go on, Try studying the halocaust stories. I dare you to. And if a time machine is ever invented id dare you to tell the germens you were a jew in 1944 see how similar america is too nazi germany.
My opinion remains that bush didnt have that many options at the time. And despite all that he chose the popular one like any politician would. And leaving iraq to do would result in far mroe loss of life, just not for you. at the moment it seems bush is obviously the moral center of america if everyone thinks the best thing to do is to leave iraq and leave it in chaos. No maybe you should leave after you do something properly. Or maybe you should reconsider and use a better strategy. But instantly leaving is just cowardly and stupid.
I rather suspect Bush, with the way he acted during the attacks, that he knew it was gonna happen, and he simply needed it to gain his country's support for a war. Why do I believ that?
All that is happening right now, is that Iraq is in Chaos, America in fricking debt, and Bush is profitting from it. Gee, tough choice he had to make, obviously. You really believe anything Fox spews at you?
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roy-algriffin
Supreme Hero
Chocolate ice cream zealot
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posted November 11, 2007 01:30 AM |
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Ive never even watched fox. Im not really sure what it is apart from a TV channel.
How hard is it honestly to believe i formed these opinions myself? Because for the most part i did. Yours just seem to be every single conspiracy theory and anti-bush idea ever invented.
Yes now everyone dislikes bush. But only because the guy next to them at work/school told them to. And they only did because the guy next to them told them to. Not that many people have their own opinions.
I still believe he had a hard decision. So your actually thinking a simple human has the foresight to say "lets go attack here " and hope to make money off it? And hes the president in america . He doesnt lack for money. As far the economy im almost certain that the economic problems in america are unrelated. The most ive ever heard of a serious source say of it is "and the war on iraq has some mysterious unknown effect on the economy that caused it" Even if its true noone can explain how or why.
Lots of people like bush and "corporate bigwigs" made money you say. But the only thing i can think of thats making money is weapon manufactiring companies. Seriously do you think that bush would build oil plants in iraq and then ship it back and hope noone would notice? Ships and the buildings needed for the oil are expensive too.
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted November 11, 2007 01:33 AM |
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America should worry about America. It has enough problems of its own. It certainly can't pretend to be a paragon of democracy after the farce of the 2000 elections, its resistance to reform, and propoganda's hold on its population.
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Eccentric Opinion
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