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Heroes Community > Other Side of the Monitor > Thread: Attack Iraq?
Thread: Attack Iraq? This Popular Thread is 107 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 ... 20 40 60 80 100 ... 103 104 105 106 107 · «PREV / NEXT»
Moonlith
Moonlith


Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
If all else fails, use Fiyah!
posted November 11, 2007 01:55 AM
Edited by Moonlith at 01:58, 11 Nov 2007.

Quote:
Ive never even watched fox. Im not really sure what it is apart from a TV channel.
How hard is it honestly to believe i formed these opinions myself? Because for the most part i did. Yours just seem to be every single conspiracy theory and anti-bush idea ever invented.
Yes now everyone dislikes bush. But only because the guy next to them at work/school told them to. And they only did because the guy next to them told them to. Not that many people have their own opinions.

I still believe he had a hard decision. So your actually thinking a simple human has the foresight to say "lets go attack here " and hope to make money off it? And hes the president in america . He doesnt lack for money. As far the economy im almost certain that the economic problems in america are unrelated. The most ive ever heard of a serious source say of it is "and the war on iraq has some mysterious unknown effect on the economy that caused it" Even if its true noone can explain how or why.

Lots of people like bush and "corporate bigwigs" made money you say. But the only thing i can think of thats making money is weapon manufactiring companies. Seriously do you think that bush would build oil plants in iraq and then ship it back and hope noone would notice? Ships and the buildings needed for the oil are expensive too.


That's quite the easy way out, claiming it's a mere complot theory. If I take a look at the official story, then at the anti-bush story, and look at them from a neutral point of view, I say the anti-Bush one sounds 10 times more logical.

You're claiming I don't have my own opinion?

Aside from the war industry which is making more than enough money - what was it, 200 billion this year? - you can think of it like a computer game:

The map is revealed, you have most military power, you see where your main recources are which you need to stay in power, yet you can't risk an open war with all the other players. What do you do? You make up an excuse and move to secure said recources to ENSURE you will keep that dominant position in the future. Fact: Oil reserves are depleting rapidly. It's not as much about money even, that's an extra - the rebuilding of iraq and all. The main point is ensuring the safety of deposits.

Without Oil, Western civilisation completely collapses.

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roy-algriffin
roy-algriffin


Supreme Hero
Chocolate ice cream zealot
posted November 11, 2007 04:13 AM
Edited by roy-algriffin at 04:13, 11 Nov 2007.

Quote:

That's quite the easy way out, claiming it's a mere complot theory. If I take a look at the official story, then at the anti-bush story, and look at them from a neutral point of view, I say the anti-Bush one sounds 10 times more logical.

It is a conspiracy theory. Emphasis on theory. It has no proof or enough thigns to support it to make it anything more then a theory, Wether its true or not is irrelevant to it being a conspiracy theory. You cant be neutral because your obviously biased. There is no neutral point of view once youve already been supporting a view for a long time. Your stuck and you cant back out of supporting your own ideas now. Apart from that if you were say judging bush in court you would say guilty on the spot. Thats the reason your not neutral..

You're claiming I don't have my own opinion?

No but i think its doubtful that your opinion is mostly formed of your own initiative. You may have been listening to another person who used the same theory and then adopted it for your own. If its a theory that is entirely yours then my apologies.

Aside from the war industry which is making more than enough money - what was it, 200 billion this year? - you can think of it like a computer game:

The map is revealed, you have most military power, you see where your main recources are which you need to stay in power, yet you can't risk an open war with all the other players. What do you do? You make up an excuse and move to secure said recources to ENSURE you will keep that dominant position in the future. Fact: Oil reserves are depleting rapidly. It's not as much about money even, that's an extra - the rebuilding of iraq and all. The main point is ensuring the safety of deposits.

Nothing to do with bush and just because youve attacked the terrority it doesnt mean youve secured the resourced.
Lets say in an RTS game like C&C and you attacked your enemies base. Does that mean in any way you can build a refinery and start sending in harvesters?
And besides that it doesnt mean bush is profiting from it even if he has people getting oil from there. You do have to see both points of view to make a valid opinion. Ive seen yours and im saying "fine yes he attacked iraq and he may have invested something into oil, Now how does this mean he got the oil, that he wouldnt have gotten more by ignoring the whole thing and letting oil prices build up and how do we know that he had the foresight for this and it may not just have been a side effect"


Without Oil, Western civilisation completely collapses.

We will see. But if thats true it means that bush is benefiting the people there.


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Moonlith
Moonlith


Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
If all else fails, use Fiyah!
posted November 11, 2007 04:23 PM

Quote:
It is a conspiracy theory. Emphasis on theory. It has no proof or enough thigns to support it to make it anything more then a theory, Wether its true or not is irrelevant to it being a conspiracy theory. You cant be neutral because your obviously biased. There is no neutral point of view once youve already been supporting a view for a long time. Your stuck and you cant back out of supporting your own ideas now. Apart from that if you were say judging bush in court you would say guilty on the spot. Thats the reason your not neutral..


Theory or not, the official reading is no more than a THEORY as well. The fact it is called "Conspiracy theory" does not make it any less reliable than the official theory. There's as much evidense for the official story as for the conspiracy. Yes, I would say guilty on the spot, and if you say not guilty, you should do some more research. Here's a fun tip: Fahrenheit 9/11. Oh I know, Michael Moore isn't the most reliable person, but at least he comes with facts you can track down for reliability. I'm not neutral now, no, but I started off as neutral. Fact is, the 9/11 attacks were SUSPICIOUSLY benefitting to Bush and his friends. Add to that evidense of former plans of staging attacks just to get the American people afraid enough to support a war abroad, and you already have reason enough to fully distrust official stories.

Quote:
No but i think its doubtful that your opinion is mostly formed of your own initiative. You may have been listening to another person who used the same theory and then adopted it for your own. If its a theory that is entirely yours then my apologies.


Of course it isn't entirely mine, likewise yours is not entirely yours. But I don't outright accept any possible fact flung my way. When I read simular claims over and over again from different sources, it just gets more reliable.

Quote:
Nothing to do with bush and just because youve attacked the terrority it doesnt mean youve secured the resourced.
Lets say in an RTS game like C&C and you attacked your enemies base. Does that mean in any way you can build a refinery and start sending in harvesters?


Yes, it does mean that, if you can keep them protected. But more importantly, you keep enemy harvesters from collecting and depleting the recource.

Quote:
And besides that it doesnt mean bush is profiting from it even if he has people getting oil from there. You do have to see both points of view to make a valid opinion. Ive seen yours and im saying "fine yes he attacked iraq and he may have invested something into oil, Now how does this mean he got the oil, that he wouldnt have gotten more by ignoring the whole thing and letting oil prices build up and how do we know that he had the foresight for this and it may not just have been a side effect"



Speaking of foresight:

"The plan is to engineer events, real and staged, that will create enormous fear in the countdown years to 2012. This includes a plan to start a third world war either by stimulating the Muslim world into a 'holy war' against the West or by using the Chinese to cause global conflict. Maybe both." David Icke - The Biggest Secret 1998"

That was cited in 1998. Scary aint it?

"If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it.
The lie can be maintained only for such time as the State can shield the people from the
political, economic and/or military consequences of the lie. It thus becomes vitally
important for the State to use all of its powers to repress dissent, for the truth is the mortal
enemy of the lie, and thus by extension, the truth is the greatest enemy of the State.”  Joseph Goebbels, Nazi minister of propaganda.

Tell me, what is YOUR reason for believing the official lecture?


" An evil exists that threatens every man, woman and child of this great nation. We must take steps to insure our domestic security and protect our Homeland."

Sounds like a summary of what Bush is saying, yet it was Adolf Hitler who said that. Fear politics.

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mvassilev
mvassilev


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
posted November 11, 2007 06:10 PM

There's no question that Bush benefited from 9/11. I don't think that he planned it, though. Now, America is partially at fault for it, but to say that the government planned it is too much. It is our foreign policy that caused it.
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roy-algriffin
roy-algriffin


Supreme Hero
Chocolate ice cream zealot
posted November 11, 2007 06:21 PM

Well that would depend on what the official lecture is. Cause yours is more widespread in america then people who are thinking for themselves what is true.

Besides that theories like yours arent usually logical jumps to conclusion. Theyre just more interesting and you can call someone names because of it regardless of if a person is a criminal or not.

Anyway i believe what i say because it takes a lot to incriminate a person. I believe hes made a lot of mistakes and a lot of rash action. But theres a lto to prove to get someone into prison.

What was his motive-(ok youve answered that its basically money, though im not sure if this is enough motive, because he might have plenty of money)

Was he intending to get this effect- I mean honestly its not impossible that bush did actually want to do something moral. Thats what people always rule out. They say "im selfish and mean so he must be selfish and mean too" theres such a thing as being nice. Besides that if he would have succeeded it would have raised peoples opinion of him and the worlds opinion of america.

And most importantly- is his continued reason for staying related to this? Has he really happier in iraq because of getting money? or because of the volatile situation there hes staying there not to get people hating america even more. Because in the end of the day things have to get worse before they get better. And right now the only way to improve the situation is to make sure iraq is more stable, that iraq stops wanting to wipe isreal off the map and that isreal get less bloodthirsty for revenge. Simple right? or not at all.

apart from that the conspiracy theories can always be punched full of holes. How did he get the materials to start getting the oil in iraq? is he really stopping them from getting the oil? because last i heard most of the middle east was happily drilling away. does it really matter? iraq is a small and insignificant country and theres still some oil left elsewhere.Less money could be spent ro actually pay them for the oil for one.

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Moonlith
Moonlith


Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
If all else fails, use Fiyah!
posted November 11, 2007 07:07 PM
Edited by Moonlith at 19:09, 11 Nov 2007.

I'm currently watching this video on google video:

The Truth and Lies about 9-11

It's a lecture by Mike Ruppert, who is a former CIA-agent who got fed up with the drugdealing business, and brings out his facts in this lecture.

Now you don't need to be convinced, but just take a look at it if you have the time (it's 2 hours and 17 minutes...). What I find interesting is that many of his claims are things I've already heard before elsewhere as well.

If you follow the official story, Bush's actions are considered mistakes. If you listen to this, his actions make perfect sense.

Beginning till 50 minutes orso is about CIA and their dealing with drugmoney.

50 mins till 1 hour 29 is about the Middle Eastern region and why it is of significance, very interesting part especially the latter part of that, where he starts about something I have as well come across multiple times; New World Order.

From 1:29 the part about 9 september begins, I'm currently there (still watching).

The date seems off though, since the lecture is obviously after 9/11.

One thing he claims and prevents evidense for which I hadn't heard before: Bush's grandfather apparently ran a company which funded Adolf Hitler before and during World War 2. Nice

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Consis
Consis


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Of Ruby
posted November 12, 2007 05:19 AM

Pfeh . . .

Quote:
America should worry about America

Tell that to Oprah. She thinks America should worry about Africa despite any problem we face here at home. She said it herself, she's fed up with inner city schools. We should just give up on our own children and help other countries.
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Roses Are RedAnd So Am I

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roy-algriffin
roy-algriffin


Supreme Hero
Chocolate ice cream zealot
posted November 12, 2007 05:31 AM


Quote:
Tell that to Oprah. She thinks America should worry about Africa despite any problem we face here at home. She said it herself, she's fed up with inner city schools. We should just give up on our own children and help other countries


Theres generous people and theres selfish people but thats just plain strange,
Havent watched the vid yet.  I need a solid 2 hours i can commit some time. But with school and all it can be a bit difficult.
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"Am i a demon? No im a priest of the light! THE BLOODY RED LIGHT"

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Mytical
Mytical


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Chaos seeking Harmony
posted November 12, 2007 08:09 AM

This may be a long rambling post, just a warning.  First off, I get sick and tired of "Americans are this way, or Americans are that way".  Everybody else gets upset when somebody generalizes them, but it's ok to generalize Americans I guess.

I was skeptical of the war at the beginning, and am now even more so.  I didn't get into the whole 'flag waving' thing that swept the nation.  I figure if you can't 'wave the flag' normally, it's hypocritical to do it after something happens.  I do like being an American, think it is one of the nicests places to live on the planet, but it is far from perfect.  Our government needs an overhaul, our justice system needs even a worse one, and we really need to stop trying to be the police of the world.  Not our job.

If you came to my house, I don't care if your black white or green with purple spots, you get treated the same.  My family will give you the last bit of food we have, and go hungry ourselves, if it's needed.  As long as you don't threaten us, our friends, or our family you'll be welcome with open arms.  Everybody is equal at our house, and no fighting is allowed.  Everybody is family, until proven otherwise.  Nobody gets special treatment, and you know where the food is, get it your own dang self .

We'll defend ourselves if we have to, but we believe in good ol fashion hospitality.  We don't dislike anybody, unless they give us a reason to.  And then only that person. Now you may think this is way OT, but it's not.

While I do think Bush and his friends are getting rich off the war, I don't think they had anything to do with it.  They just saw an opportunity after the fact.  I do think, however, that somebody else in our government MAY have had something to do with it.  A few things just bother me about that day. However, without further evidence lets leave that to the side.

With risk of making everybody consider me crazy, distablization of the area with our withdrawl might actually be exactly what is needed.  Allow me to explain.  Right now we are basically playing 'whack - a - mole' while blindfolded with 1000 'holes'.  Not going to get anywhere that way.  However, when we withdrawl they will come out to try to take charge again.  As will other competeting factions.  They will fight, we come in and clean up the result.  We loose a lot less people that way.  But I am afraid that whoever said that the deaths don't matter to the government is right.  America basically fights wars now with both hands tied, blindfolded, and hobbled.  Wouldn't be PC otherwise.

Now as to the loss of one city and the looting rioting, I have to respectfully disagree.  Lets take the LA riots for example.  Sure the president/ect was not killed, but they have a chain of command that is pretty black and white so the loss of them would be a non-issue.  The LA riots were a good example of how things can get pretty bad.  True for awhile the military and police had to sit on their hands pretty much, because they were unsure what to do.  However, no civil war came from it.  Even though it was at the start racially motivated.  Everything you said would happen, happened, but we did not get plunged into a civil war because of it.  Things settled.  It would in that case also.

People tend to drawl together in times of crisis, not the opposit, at least that is what is historically shown for this country.  We got more of our share of the 7 deadly sins, but when backed into a courner, we come out stronger then ever.  No country is perfect, and yeah America needs a lot of straightening up, but don't throw stones while living in glass houses.  Not one nation in the world has clean hands.
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Message received.

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mvassilev
mvassilev


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
posted November 12, 2007 01:50 PM
Edited by mvassilev at 13:55, 12 Nov 2007.

Quote:
Quote:
America should worry about America

Tell that to Oprah. She thinks America should worry about Africa despite any problem we face here at home. She said it herself, she's fed up with inner city schools. We should just give up on our own children and help other countries.

Oprah is free to spend her money any way she likes. It's another thing for the US government to further disturb an already dangerous region under the pretext of democracy. America should fix its own democratic system first, so it doesn't sound hypocrytical. And even then it should probably not intervene in the internal affairs of sovereign nations.

Quote:
Now as to the loss of one city and the looting rioting, I have to respectfully disagree.

In the event of a nuclear explosion, the rioting would be far worse than in LA. And the people defending themselves would form vigilante militias. The KKK would see an opportunity to come back in large numbers. Then it would become a lot more chaotic and difficult.

Quote:
People tend to drawl together in times of crisis

This is especially true of the South.
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roy-algriffin
roy-algriffin


Supreme Hero
Chocolate ice cream zealot
posted November 12, 2007 11:17 PM
Edited by roy-algriffin at 23:17, 12 Nov 2007.

Bit off topic but i think the only goverment thats ever remotedly praised are the ones that do absoloutly nothing at all important
Thats just how it i guess. At the very least i know isreals president (ahud olmert) is not very good. His approval rate has sunk to 5% And he refuses to abidcate.Not much better then bush im guessing.
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"Am i a demon? No im a priest of the light! THE BLOODY RED LIGHT"

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TitaniumAlloy
TitaniumAlloy


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Professional
posted November 16, 2007 12:45 PM

I was reading about the details of the security meeting immediately following the 9/11 attacks, and how Bush's main (and only) contention was "Find a way to link it to Iraq".

And how the maps of the attack strategy (as opposed to the exit strategy... oh wait) pretty much showed Baghdad as a circle and a label, but had detailed, hi-res satellite photos of all the oil areas.
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John says to live above hell.

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Vidoja
Vidoja


Bad-mannered
Known Hero
Checker for Heroes Competiton
posted December 21, 2007 07:03 PM

A president of a nation has done bad things. OK, punish him !!! A nation has done nothing. Americans and the English and other great nations say "Kill them too!". This attitude is common today. Trust me, I have survived a NATO bombing of a innocent nation!

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Wolfman
Wolfman


Responsible
Supreme Hero
Insomniac
posted December 21, 2007 07:51 PM

That seemed random.  
____________

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baklava
baklava


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Mostly harmless
posted December 22, 2007 01:01 AM

Vidoja's point is that just innocent people get bombed, killed and otherwise punished by other nations for what their leaders do or did.

That's like killing random Americans just because Bush is an a$$hole. Completely wrong and inhuman.

But it all comes down that when you attack someone, it's for democracy, and when someone attacks you, then it's terrorism.
It's all the same crap in the end.
____________
"Let me tell you what the blues
is. When you ain't got no
money,
you got the blues."
Howlin Wolf

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The_Gootch
The_Gootch


Honorable
Supreme Hero
Kneel Before Me Sons of HC!!
posted January 24, 2008 04:46 AM

Vidoja is a one issue pony.  I know better than to engage him on it.  *ahem*

This was on Yahoo yesterday.

Dargon and the rest of the flag waving phonies can suck it

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roy-algriffin
roy-algriffin


Supreme Hero
Chocolate ice cream zealot
posted January 24, 2008 06:28 AM

Non-Profit?
As in funding by donations?
That man on the street begging you for a dollar will tell you how bad bush is too .
____________
"Am i a demon? No im a priest of the light! THE BLOODY RED LIGHT"

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The_Gootch
The_Gootch


Honorable
Supreme Hero
Kneel Before Me Sons of HC!!
posted January 24, 2008 06:41 AM

Is this an attempt at playing devil's advocate?

*snork*

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Consis
Consis


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Of Ruby
posted January 24, 2008 07:04 AM

Dargon?

Man you got to let that guy go. He hasn't been seen around since right around the time I joined HC.
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Roses Are RedAnd So Am I

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limeng
limeng

Tavern Dweller
posted January 29, 2008 06:25 PM
Edited by limeng at 18:34, 29 Jan 2008.

Quote:
Man you got to let that guy go. He hasn't been seen around since right around the time I joined HC.

What does HC mean? I often think HC means 'hua chi' in Chinese,which means a man who is addicted into chasing women.
____________

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