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| Thread: Real Life: Who is worse? |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 · NEXT» |
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Wolfman
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posted September 26, 2002 03:28 AM |
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Poll Question:
Real Life: Who is worse?
In history who is worst, who killed the most people, who is the lesser of the 2 evils.
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IYY
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted September 26, 2002 03:45 AM |
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Though I think that Stalin killed more people than Hitler (that depents on how you define "kill" though), Hitler is waaaaay worse. I mean, Stalin did a lot of evil but in that he also did some good and I think that his intentions were alot better than Hitler (who openly wanted to take over the world and kill everybody who is not German). That's why I say that HITLER is the worst one of them all.
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Wolfman
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posted September 26, 2002 03:49 AM |
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The funny thing is that Hitler was not even German, he was Austrian. And he wanted an Aryan Society with blond hair and blue eyes when he had brown hair and brown eyes.
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Wolfman
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posted September 26, 2002 03:52 AM |
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Ok, who voted for Franklin without an explaination.
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IYY
Responsible
Supreme Hero
REDACTED
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posted September 26, 2002 03:54 AM |
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One more funny thing is that while Hitler wanted to kill all of those who were even remotly jewish, he had some jewish family members (not sure who exactly). Weird guy, that Hitler...
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privatehudson
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posted September 26, 2002 04:10 AM |
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*sigh*
Why is this up for discussion? Hitler and Stalin clearly killed more people than the others, but define which was more evil? I don't think you can! Why is it more evil to kill 6 million jews and have a hand in 21 million Russian deaths than it is to kill at least that many of your own people in death camps in Siberia? They are both evil, simple as that.
Marx: I've said it before and will say it again.... Communism as laid down by Marx and Engels is not evil nor was marx himself. You cannot put him in the same category as Stalin just simply for writing the manifesto. others used the manifesto to do evil, not marx himself. You may as well label St mark or St Luke evil, because some of their writings contributed to the arguments for crusades!
Ben Franklin: As in American statesman? How was he evil? A swine sure for nicking our colonies but evil? Nah!
Hirohito: As in Emporer of Japan in WWII right? errrr evil perhaps, but a lot of the things done during WWII was done in his name and not by him. Also much of the atrocities carried out was done so because of the way the japanese saw the world then. It was considered dishonourable to surrender, and so anyone who did was treated as scum. No excuse again, but this attitude had reigned in Japan for centuries, to expect change overnight was something impossible.
IYY Stalin took over eastern europe and suppressed the people there. He was also always looking to expand his influence to other areas and therefore should also be labelled a warmonger. Hitler also did not want to kill everyone who was not German. He despised people who did not come from a germanic background such as slavs, and despised non-conformists such as homosexual people and also religous groups such as the Jews. Of course this is by no means OK, But hitler's 3rd reich incorporated the ideas of uniting europe against the evil of stalin and also allowed people of germanic descent (eg Frenchman living in Alsace Lorraine) greater rights. Like I said no justification, but it is hardly accurate to say everyone who was not german. Despite it's many evil's Hitler's Germany did at least succeed in restoring the country to it's former glory before the war to such an extent that you could understand the germans supporting him prior to the outbreak of WWII.
And other than defeating Hitler I can think of very little that Stalin personally did to promote a better world. Sure helping to beat Hitler was a fine achievement, but Stalin was a dictator, same as Hitler so does it matter how many each killed, or who did what to whom?
Oh and I believe the Jewish blood was somewhere in his great granparents, so quite far back, but enough nonetheless to raise an enquiry with the gestapo!
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IYY
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posted September 26, 2002 04:26 AM |
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Quote:
Why is it more evil to kill 6 million jews and have a hand in 21 million Russian deaths than it is to kill at least that many of your own people in death camps in Siberia? They are both evil, simple as that.
That's why I asked what was the definition of kill. It is somewhat different. First of all, Stalin at least had some reasons to send those people to siberia. Not that I in any way agree that it was a right thing to do, but he had more reasons to do this than Hitler who just wanted to kill all of the Jews because he assumed that they ruined the German economy. That's why I don't think that Stalin killed those Russians the same way that Hitler killed the Jews, so the numbers are not relevant.
But I very much agree with the fact that they were both evil.
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Hitler also did not want to kill everyone who was not German.
He didn't say it directly, but if he believed that the Germans (or Aryans, whatever) should rule the Earth and the other races are "lesser races" then it's just as bad.
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But hitler's 3rd reich incorporated the ideas of uniting europe against the evil of stalin and also allowed people of germanic descent
That's because at that point Hitler understood how dangerous the Soviet Union was to Nazi Germany, so he had to try anything he could in order to win. Does not mean he believed in it.
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Despite it's many evil's Hitler's Germany did at least succeed in restoring the country to it's former glory before the war to such an extent that you could understand the germans supporting him prior to the outbreak of WWII.
I have to agree on that.
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privatehudson
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posted September 26, 2002 04:42 AM |
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Well that was kind of my point. The Aryan race consists of most of Western Europe, so hardly just german. I don't think it's right, but was only correcting the idea it was only germans who he wanted in the 3rd reich.
Precisely what was Stalin's reason for these deaths then? Paranoia, the fact that they were opponents and that they could be worked to death in the course of furthering russia's economy there? I don't recollect many other reasons, but Paranoia featured heavily in hitler's reasons as he genuinely seemed to believe that there was a jewish/communist crusade against him and also that the 1st war was only lost due to Jewish Interference. He genuinely saw them as opponents also. The fact is they were not, but it doesn't make the reasons any different from stalin's paranoia about coups by the millitary.
The way in which they died is interesting really. hitler took little notice nor care about how the jewish solution was acheived or carried out, whereas stalin directly used to watch people being murdered during intervals at the ballet! The german method was machine like and de-humanised so that the people in the party could distance themselves from the killing. To the germans in charge of the system it became just another industry, nothing to be espsecially concerned with as they never saw or cared about the effects on lives.
Kill is to me no different if you machine like order the gassing of millions of people, or if you work them to death in death camps to further the cause of your nation. Both sets of people died for no really good reason, without being able to defend themselves either in court or when they died. that's my idea of state murder and to me both Stalin and Hitler were more than guilty of
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IYY
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posted September 26, 2002 04:53 AM |
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I still think that Stalin's murders had some use, they helped in many ways (not to justify them, of course!) while Hitler's murders were for no reason at all. As for the way of death, I don't think it plays a role at all. Take for example the French Revolution: It was, of course, not a very nice thing that those french dudes did. They killed in a very similar way to Stalin's (worse, in fact, because they actually took pleasure in it). But those murders were not like Hitler's murders. Those had a reason. I believe that if you tried to think like those guys at the revolution, or Stalin, you would think something like "Those guys are putting my whole country in danger, by getting rid of them we set example for others and improve our lifestyle. I do all that for my people."
Now if you try to think like Hitler, it would be more like "Our country sux because of the war, who is to blame? Jews are to blame because they are rich. How about we kill all of them?".
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bort
Honorable
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Discarded foreskin of morality
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posted September 26, 2002 05:17 AM |
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Quick post - I've always considered Hitler to be evil, but Stalin to be ammoral. I think that Hitler knew the value of human life and then deliberately set out to destroy a certain portion of that, but I think that Stalin simply didn't view human life as particularly valuable.
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dArGOn
Famous Hero
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posted September 26, 2002 06:45 AM |
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Great posts....getting a good history lesson here
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Nernug
Adventuring Hero
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posted September 26, 2002 07:30 AM |
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Aryans aren't really people with blonde hair and blue eyes. I don't know why the nazis thought that. If you look up "aryan" in any modern dictionary you will find the word Indo-European, an Indian looking person.
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IYY
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Supreme Hero
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posted September 26, 2002 06:28 PM |
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While the correct definition of Aryan is not "blond hair, blue eyes", I think that this was a race that lived somewhere in Europe and started as a mix breed of Greeks and Indians.
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bort
Honorable
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Discarded foreskin of morality
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posted September 26, 2002 07:01 PM |
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Okay, I'll put in what I've heard about the "true" meaning of aryan -- they were one of the multiple groups of "barbarians" that periodically emerged from Asia Minor. They took over India from the north (displacing the native Dravidians.) This is why north Indians have a tendency to be taller and fairer skinned than the southern Indians.
The thing is, though, if the Nazis labelled blond hair/blue eyes as "aryan" and that's what people understand when you say "aryan" then that's what the word means. The meaning of words can change with time. Just look at the word "gay."
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IYY
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posted September 26, 2002 10:27 PM |
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I still think they were Greeks and not barbarians, led by Alexander the Great.
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bort
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Discarded foreskin of morality
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posted September 26, 2002 10:29 PM |
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Quote:
I still think they were Greeks and not barbarians, led by Alexander the Great.
These terms are mutually exclusive?
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IYY
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posted September 26, 2002 10:31 PM |
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The word barbarian meant, at the time, anybody who is not Greek or Roman. The "barbarians" of that time were the Goths, the Celts and the rest of those European nations.
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johnsone79
Hired Hero
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posted September 27, 2002 12:49 AM |
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G.W. takes the cake
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tuapui
Famous Hero
Poetic Psycho Baby BlackDragon
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posted September 27, 2002 12:54 AM |
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i shall now reveal why we hate benfranklin. He has in a term of a few decades, became 3 000 000 times the american population by placing his face in 100 dollar bills. frankly i'm no american but hey u got your explanation.
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Shadow_Elf
Wandering Thief
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posted September 27, 2002 12:57 AM |
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Quote:
Ok, who voted for Franklin without an explaination.
who put ben franklin there without an explanation ?
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