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| Thread: Six common Misunderstandings of unexperienced Heroes 4 players. | |
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Wub
Responsible
Famous Hero
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posted September 29, 2002 05:29 PM |
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Edited By: Hexa on 17 Oct 2002
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Six common Misunderstandings of unexperienced Heroes 4 players.
I’m not a newbie basher. If I were, my post count would have been twice as much from what it is now. But in this thread I will try to help people who are new to Heroes 4 by showing which errors and false arguments are often made. Now I don’t claim to be an expert in this game, so maybe I am really way off with some examples. But I think that even experienced players can learn from this list of frequently made faults and that they will enjoy reading it as well. Feel free to criticize me or to add anything from your own experience.
misunderstanding 1: being too confident in the game balance
It doesn’t matter which alignment you play with, because they all are equally strong. If you think that one alignment is weaker, it is probably because you cannot play with it well
I agree that you cannot say that one alignment is always better than an other. But that doesn’t mean that the game balance is perfect. Maybe Death is stronger than Life on most maps. Maybe Order magic is better than Chaos magic. You really can not say beforehand that the game creators succeeded in balancing the game. They are humans too!
And even when all alignments tun out to be fairly well balanced, then still there are situations in which one alignment is preferred over an other. Not all are exactly equally strong in every situation! For example: some towns are especially good on rich maps, others on closed maps. If in a starting town a castle is already prebuilt, the Might alignment will especially benefit from it since harpies and thunderbirds become easier to build. If there aren’t much gems on the map, it may become hard to build a genie dwelling. And there are dozens of such factors. Therefore a real good player should try to determine in which situation a town fares best. Of course, the key also is to know which strategies to use with an alignment, but the choice of your town is important too!
misunderstanding 2: paying too much attention to certain creature statistics while ignoring others
Life is really powerful. They have three shooters!
The ‘ranged’ specialty is a good one, but it doesn’t necessarily make the unit itself outstanding, let alone that the Life alignment is great due to their shooters. A ballista, for example, may be able to shoot but it moves really slow on the adventure map which is a severe setback. And should I choose venom spawn over vampires because they are a shooter? Are titans better than dragon golems for that reason? Don’t forget that titans are real hard to build...
Same is true for other specialties. The fact that an efreet can fly doesn’t make it necessarily better than nightmares, who are walkers. Also, units without a great special ability can be very good. And slow units don’t need to be useless...
Nomads have an incredible 45 hitpoints and they do good damage too. Really one of the better second level units!
I don’t claim that nomads are bad, but people often look more at damage and hitpoints than at attack and defense skills. Some even think to know what the ‘strenght’ of a unit is without grasping how attack and defense skills work. Let me tell you this: a white tiger is roughly ¼ ‘stronger’ than a nomad.
Isn’t a black dragon just too strong and a champion too weak? One black dragon will easily kill a champion...
Fortunately, you don’t hear this too often anymore nowadays. Aside from the fact that letting two units fight isn’t the best way to determine which is stronger, it is obvious that you should think about the growth of units too.
Misunderstanding 3: Comparing alternatives under lousy conditions, or not even comparing at all
Hydras are great. Cast cat reflexes, slayer, bloodlust and if possible vampiric touch and dragon strength on them and look at how they wreak havoc! Casting giant strength will help too!
I guess that any unit that is under the influence of so many spells, is ‘really great’. This doesn’t prove that hydras are among the top of level 4 units. But it even becomes funny when another person replies on this on the same way:
Not only hydras are great, angels really rule too! Just cast guardian angel, prayer, a ward, bless, spiritual armor and mirth on them and they are unstoppable!!
These discussions can last for hours...and after that we still know nothing. Or what about this:
I’ve only played Chaos yet, but I am a fairly sure already that they are the best! When I have black dragons, the computer usually doesn’t have its level 3 dwelling! And I usually have better magic too by then!
Shouldn’t you play with other alignments too, before saying which is the best? And isn’t it way off to compare yourself with a lousy AI as well?
Misunderstanding 4: Relying too heavily upon the games you have played so far
In the nature campaign, I had used the summoning skill to get 250 white tigers. I could kill everything, so summoning is great. Especially because I had also recruited 300 griffins by then
I guess it isn’t really surprising that such a big army can ‘kill everything’. But we still don’t know if summoning is ‘great’ or if griffins are usually better than unicorns. Some people also enjoy some of their victories so much, that they will always use the same tactics as they used then:
I was once playing against the computer and he had an army which was a lot bigger. But I had a nature army and my druid could summon new creatures very fast. It was a close battle but I won in the end. So I think that nature is real good and that magic heroes are often a lot better than might heroes!’
I’m glad that you won. Sure, you know the complete game now you have achieved that one victory.
Misunderstanding 5: Relying too heavily upon what you already know from Heroes 3
The best way to use armageddon is to bring some efreeti with you. Make sure that your hero has the fire resistance specialty. Now you can start casting armageddon and you will hurt all your enemies, but not yourself!
This may have worked in Heroes 3, but did you actually try it in Heroes 4? Armageddon works differently, you know... Likewise, many people try to build economical structures (town hall, city hall) at the same time as they did with Heroes 3. Maybe it is often a good idea to not build a city hall at all in Heroes 4?
Misunderstanding 6: Forgetting about how hard it is to acquire something
Shadowmagi (death + order) are the best advanced class! They can cast hypnotize on a creature and then sacrifice it!
And how often is it going to happen that you have grandmaster order and grandmaster death magic? Aside from the fact that this combo is made impossible in version 2.0.
Actually, this mistake is made so often... You don’t want to know how many people say that you should choose a certain alignment, ‘because their level 4 unit is the best’. Or because ‘hand of death is one of the best spells available’. Good to know...
Misunderstanding 6: Overestimating the difference between alignments
All alignments play very differently and all have a lot of different strategies
Now I don’t say all alignments are the same. But they aren’t so different as many people think. The way in which they build up isn’t too different (going for a level 3 creatures really soon) and the way they explore doesn’t make the difference either (sending out as many cheap scouts as is desirable...giving your heroes preferably fast units). Tell me which strategies the alignments use to be special...
...And so I could go on with things that are posted on these forums and that don’t seem to make sense. But instead I would ask if I am way off with what I say here. Or maybe even if I am forgetting something. Or if you think this thread is helpful...I would like to hear it of course. If you would like to post a real stupid quote...go ahead! Newbies can be funny too!
Edit by Hexa: nice thread . keep up the good work!@
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Destro23
Promising
Famous Hero
Keeper of GrongGrong
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posted September 30, 2002 12:48 AM |
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" You must be cheating.. because you beat me and I have NEVER lost a game to the computer! "
This is my absolute favorite newbie quote.. or after the game they go to the chat room and post that you are cheating because somehow.. between weeks 1 and 6 you've managed to build a lv4 creature! Can you imagine lol.
I'd agree with most of what you said.
However I do beleive that the different alignments have more differences in strategy than you let on. In heroes4 anyway, as opposed to heroes3, the strategy is not quite so logistic. Of course there are common strategies to each faction to be applied to exploration, resource collection, and general build structures. However most important strategies involve keeping my units alive, and producing the best unit to Kill you with  and the towns in H4 have a variety of strategy associated with almost all produced units in the towns. Witht he exception of some tank type units common to all, and of course the shooting groups.
Also in playing each alignment, of course, hero developement is also crucial, which classes will work best for you... which skills have a priority, a magic or might hero? 2 heroes.. ect ect..
But otherwise I agree with your post.
1 other thing I would add when speaking of multi player.
NO you don't get a turn every 2mins when the timer is set to that! COmbat takes time..
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The Dead Walk!!!
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privatehudson
Responsible
Legendary Hero
The Ultimate Badass
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posted September 30, 2002 01:00 AM |
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Uhm just me being pedantic, but that's 7 
Hey who's complaining I geuss that's one free!
cheers man
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johnsone79
Hired Hero
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posted September 30, 2002 01:54 AM |
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First of all I don't mean to harp on you because you do bring up some very good points, although I don't agree with all of them. You may be right that many newcomers post somewhat inane comments. However, setting forth such an epistle does not help foster a friendly environment towards the new arrivals. Such comments may lead to scaring newcommers away or making them too scared of saying something to bother adding to the discussion. Although some of the posts about which town because of some combo of spell and creature is best may appear ridiculous to you, by discouraging commentary you may just be losing out on some really cool tricks that you could put to use in future games. Give people a chance, and hopefully they will come to realize what posts are good and what are bad. It may be better to lead by example than to criticize flaws, which I have to admit, in most cases you do, wub. So keep up the thoughtful posts, just beware of discouraging an open discussion. Of course, now I seem the hypocrite because I am almost doing exactly that, but hopefully you get what I mean.
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Wub
Responsible
Famous Hero
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posted September 30, 2002 01:54 AM |
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Edited By: Wub on 30 Sep 2002
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" You must be cheating.. because you beat me and I have NEVER lost a game to the computer! "
This is my absolute favorite newbie quote.. or after the game they go to the chat room and post that you are cheating because somehow.. between weeks 1 and 6 you've managed to build a lv4 creature! Can you imagine lol.
LMAO . Don't you feel very offended when you are compared with a lousy AI that is even stupid enough to not pick up unguarded relic artifacts? 
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However I do beleive that the different alignments have more differences in strategy than you let on.
Hmmm....all right, this may be a less obvious one than the other misunderstandings. It's just that people who say that every alignment has its unique strategy sound like a sales manager of 3DO . I mean, if you say that the thief strategy is completely different from any other strategy, I can agree with that. Building up your town by sneaking past creature stacks is just a completely different strategy than improving your economy by killing creature stacks.
But I find myself doing the same things over and over again when starting a game: sending out as many scouts as possible, giving my hero a fast creature, flagging my ore and wood mine, building a key unit, cleaning the area with that army, improving my tactics/magic skills, buying a lord (if possible), buying immortality potions, attacking my enemy if I have a lead etc. etc. It isn't so very different as many people say in my opinion.
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1 other thing I would add when speaking of multi player.
NO you don't get a turn every 2mins when the timer is set to that! COmbat takes time..
Yeah, that one is good too And what about this:
Leprechauns are no good fighters, unless you have hundreds of them
Yeah, it does make sense that a large stack is more powerful than a small stack...thanks for the info.
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Uhm just me being pedantic, but that's 7
Hey who's complaining I geuss that's one free!
cheers man
LOL We are so generous Want to hear 10 more? I júst knock them off...
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johnsone79
Hired Hero
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posted September 30, 2002 02:00 AM |
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Hmmm....all right, this may be a less obvious one than the other misunderstandings. It's just that people who say that every alignment has its unique strategy sound like a sales manager of 3DO . I mean, if you say that the thief strategy is completely different from any other strategy, I can agree with that. Building up your town by sneaking past creature stacks is just a completely different strategy than improving your economy by killing creature stacks.
But I find myself doing the same things over and over again when starting a game: sending out as many scouts as possible, giving my hero a fast creature, flagging my ore and wood mine, building a key unit, cleaning the area with that army, improving my tactics/magic skills, buying a lord (if possible), buying immortality potions, attacking my enemy if I have a lead etc. etc. It isn't so very different as many people say in my opinion.
I have to agree with you that for much of the strategic game all towns are the same. It is really only in the tactical, and the city building with tactical in mind, that the strategies really vary. Wouldn't it be wonderful if some strategy game creaters actually managed to make a game where the overall gameplay differed significantly from playing on side compared to another.
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dragonsister
Hero of Order
MapHaven administrator
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posted September 30, 2002 07:22 AM |
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I have to agree with you that for much of the strategic game all towns are the same. It is really only in the tactical, and the city building with tactical in mind, that the strategies really vary. Wouldn't it be wonderful if some strategy game creaters actually managed to make a game where the overall gameplay differed significantly from playing on side compared to another.
I'm sure someone will claim an example here ...
Best I can think of is 'Magic: The Gathering' - at least when I played. Different 'decks' required very different tactics ... and different colours *generally* required different tactics, although I saw both white and black 'weenie horde' decks. Some things varied more than others - most decks I played got going on three or four mana; some required two; it was pretty bloody hard to build a deck which only really needed one mana. So just about all decks relied on putting out one land a turn for the first few turns. And *most* decks had a reasonable supply of creatures.
But if you demand that the gameplay should be *totally* different between the various sides, you'll have a really hard time actually getting any two sides into fair competition! In the limit, different sides are playing different games! So it's a balance ... there is always a balance.
DragonSister
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MapHaven
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Wub
Responsible
Famous Hero
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posted September 30, 2002 10:50 AM |
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Edited By: Wub on 30 Sep 2002
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First of all I don't mean to harp on you because you do bring up some very good points, although I don't agree with all of them. You may be right that many newcomers post somewhat inane comments. However, setting forth such an epistle does not help foster a friendly environment towards the new arrivals. Such comments may lead to scaring newcommers away or making them too scared of saying something to bother adding to the discussion. Although some of the posts about which town because of some combo of spell and creature is best may appear ridiculous to you, by discouraging commentary you may just be losing out on some really cool tricks that you could put to use in future games. Give people a chance, and hopefully they will come to realize what posts are good and what are bad. It may be better to lead by example than to criticize flaws, which I have to admit, in most cases you do, wub. So keep up the thoughtful posts, just beware of discouraging an open discussion. Of course, now I seem the hypocrite because I am almost doing exactly that, but hopefully you get what I mean.
I agree with most of what you state here. As I said, I'm not a newbie basher and I have NEVER made fun of them. In fact I have never flamed anyone, no matter how much I disagreed with a certain post. I also don't want to scare away newbies, in the contrary, I generally enjoy it when they make HoMM posts. That's why I explicitely refrained from putting names at the quotes, because I didn't totally make up these examples.
It's just that I think that so many more can be discovered about this game, when people don't keep making the same basic errors. This thread in fact was made to improve the judgement of players and make them more critical. I do not at all want to sound haughty, especially because my posts aren't without errors either. I am probably not even an outstanding player! It is perfectly okay to me to post while not completely knowing the game because you have other things to do as well, but I just like to read some very high quality posts about the game and I hope I can help people write them with this thread.
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I have to agree with you that for much of the strategic game all towns are the same. It is really only in the tactical, and the city building with tactical in mind, that the strategies really vary. Wouldn't it be wonderful if some strategy game creaters actually managed to make a game where the overall gameplay differed significantly from playing on side compared to another.
That would indeed be wonderful. Actually I think that the game designers have done a very brave attempt to accomplish this. Implementing the stealth skill was very risky for the balance of HoMM 4, but still they went to all the trouble to make strategy more diverse that way. Same is true for the fact that NWC decided not to give Stronghold any magic, although it had less impact on the amount different strategies.
It is also great that NWC put a lot of effort in making tactics more diverse, while they just could have added some new creatures. Instead, spellcaster creatures were created. And when you have to choose between 2 alternatives when building creatures, you will notice that both creatures are always very different from each other. All this makes it even more of a waste that they had release a Heroes 4 beta version instead of a finished game.
I just read a funny thread again. It's about whether you should choose ogre magi or cyclopes. I could quote dozens of wrong arguments, but I won't. Because recently I have realised that there are even worse ways of argumenting. I mean, if you say that ogre magi are better than cyclopes because forgetfulness will leave the cyclopes harmless, you are at least giving a tactical argument. But when people advise me to build white tigers instead of elves 'because they really look cool' or take titans instead of dragon golems because 'titans are the best from HoMM 2 on already', I don't feel really comfortable. Especially because many of these people seriously meant they were giving me a good piece of advice.
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Destro23
Promising
Famous Hero
Keeper of GrongGrong
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posted September 30, 2002 01:47 PM |
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hehe..
for the record I recall posting in that Clops vs Ogre thingy..
And I'd just like to say that I feel ogre are a better build. I use a GM melee hero with immortality and 1 ogre per battle to pump him up a bit .. its amazing how much that bloodlust helps hen you talking about Gm melee.
Well anyway thats a different story
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The Dead Walk!!!
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johnsone79
Hired Hero
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posted September 30, 2002 04:37 PM |
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[qoute]
I just read a funny thread again. It's about whether you should choose ogre magi or cyclopes. I could quote dozens of wrong arguments, but I won't. Because recently I have realised that there are even worse ways of argumenting. I mean, if you say that ogre magi are better than cyclopes because forgetfulness will leave the cyclopes harmless, you are at least giving a tactical argument. But when people advise me to build white tigers instead of elves 'because they really look cool' or take titans instead of dragon golems because 'titans are the best from HoMM 2 on already', I don't feel really comfortable. Especially because many of these people seriously meant they were giving me a good piece of advice.
Here is a point that new posters should definitely take into consideration. I find it important to feel out the purpose of a thread. In some threads the main emphasis is on advice and determining, which of the two creatures can be more beneficial to winning the game. In these cases it is very important not to go in and post advice based on cool appearance or poor logic such as "titans were extremely powerful in HOMM 2 and 3." This kind of post will tend to annoy those that are looking for sound advice or looking to have an intelligent conversation comparing pros and cons of various creatures.
However, there are also threads that talk more about personal preference and why you have those preferences. In these cases I find it very entertaining to see why people continue to make the choices they do, especially when they are not always the wisest of choices. Following the Titan example. I have posted that I still like and often choose Titans because I've really liked them since HOMM 2. I realize that from a tactical standpoint in many games this is seriously flawed. It can also be flawed in the strategic sense because of how long it takes to build the cloud castle, not to mention the resource cost. In the end, I still enjoy my Titans. If it ends up making the game harder because they are not the best choice for certain maps then, oh well. At least I get a challenge out of the game.
To all new commers, I would suggest taking the time to feel out the underlying goal or flow of a thread before posting a comment. If you want to post on a new thread, maybe take the time to look at some of the previous posts of the thread creater to see what kind of discussions they like to have before posting willy nilly.
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Wub
Responsible
Famous Hero
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posted October 01, 2002 01:21 AM |
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Edited By: Wub on 30 Sep 2002
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And I'd just like to say that I feel ogre are a better build. I use a GM melee hero with immortality and 1 ogre per battle to pump him up a bit .. its amazing how much that bloodlust helps hen you talking about Gm melee.
I can't wait to play you some time  . But just not yet. Btw, I would definitely have reacted on your thread in which you wrote this too, but I don't think I have played enough multiplayer games already.
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To all new commers, I would suggest taking the time to feel out the underlying goal or flow of a thread before posting a comment. If you want to post on a new thread, maybe take the time to look at some of the previous posts of the thread creater to see what kind of discussions they like to have before posting willy nilly.
I couldn't agree more with your post, johnsone79. I also agree it is perfectly okay to take a unit for whatever reason you want, be it their looks or tactical/strategical possibilities. But as you said, when posting in a serious tactical thread, it is often not such a good idea to tell that 'venom spawn are the best because they really look mean'.
Now the biggest problem with all these misunderstandings that I named, isn't that they are annoying. I also think it is perfectly okay to be wrong now and then. It's just that we could have known so much more about the game if some posts didn't just keep the same false things over and over again. Some people come here to learn something useful from hardcore heroes 4 gamers, you know! For example, when I start making new questions in the 'Heroes 4: Test your knowledge' thread in the library, it would be extremely lame to repeatedly provide wrong answers again. The whole idea of the quiz is to give you some useful information about tactics/strategies, so that you can get more out of the game.
I like to finish with another misunderstanding.
Misunderstanding 8: Letting your creature choice depend too heavily upon the alignment you are facing
If you play with order versus chaos, you should build titans. If you are playing against death, go for dragon golems.
The idea behind this is perfectly sensible. Titans have chaos ward and dragon golems are immune to a lot of nasty death specialties/spells. But now it seems like there are no other factors that matter. Maybe I'm being fussy, but there are numerous situations in which your enemy's alignment isn't the decisive factor. Remember that you are also fighting neutral creatures and not only against your enemy. Also, in a real resource poor map, I can imagine that it makes sense to still take dragon golems, even though you will be facing chaos a lot. And maybe dragon golems are still better than titans, even when you do face chaos creatures a lot!
It's just that in this way a lot of misunderstandings are created. People that just want to know a good strategy without having dozens of hours gameplay are easily misled this way. Instead of the pronunciation above, I would say:
Facing many chaos creatures encourages the building of titans, facing many death creatures encourages the use of dragon golems.
Always be critical!
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Djive
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Zapper of Toads
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posted October 01, 2002 01:54 PM |
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Misunderstanding 8: Letting your creature choice depend too heavily upon the alignment you are facing
A big problem with this one is (unless the map maker has supplied you with some eyes of the magi to reveal the enemy castles or forced a choice of alignment on the players):
You won't know the enemy alignment until after you've built your level 4 dwelling. (And waiting to build your level 4 until after you know enemy alignment is generally not a good idea.)
Or is there perhaps a screen that I've missed?
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"A brilliant light can either illuminate or blind. How will you know which until you open your eyes?"
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Destro23
Promising
Famous Hero
Keeper of GrongGrong
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posted October 02, 2002 01:05 PM |
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Well Djive..
I would Imagine you are speaking to some players who like to choose their towns.. This is certainly not my preference.. and I don't like telling my opponents what alignment I am playing during the game either.. and I HATE when they tell me theirs.
So my guess is that either they are playing set alignment maps.. or choosing there towns prior to starting, in which case you would know ..
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The Dead Walk!!!
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Wub
Responsible
Famous Hero
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posted October 04, 2002 03:44 PM |
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Edited By: Wub on 4 Oct 2002
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Quote:
Misunderstanding 8: Letting your creature choice depend too heavily upon the alignment you are facing
A big problem with this one is (unless the map maker has supplied you with some eyes of the magi to reveal the enemy castles or forced a choice of alignment on the players):
You won't know the enemy alignment until after you've built your level 4 dwelling. (And waiting to build your level 4 until after you know enemy alignment is generally not a good idea.)
True, I forgot to mention that. This will even force you to take other factors than enemy alignment into consideration a lot more. Unless you are not playing against random alignments of course. Still it seems possible to guess your opponent's alignment by checking your thieves guild (or maybe not...). I am aware that you already know this Djive, but for other players, read this thread, 6th post written by Joel for more information.
I recalled some twisted arguments again:
Necromancy can give you skeletons, vampires or ghosts. And if you lose them, it is no big deal because they were free anyway
Since when is it no problem to lose creatures?
Cyclopes have a really low growth of 3, but this can be compensated by buying breeding pens and a lord
The fact that cyclopes have a low growth is something different from the fact that nobility and breeding pens increase creature growth. If cyclopes had a growth of 6, you would still be pressed to increase their growth. A weekly growth of 3 is just low, period.
When you choose a creature to build, there are so many things that must be taken into account. Therefore it depends upon personal preferences
Creature building (almost always) depends on situational factors, not really on personal preference. In an extremely poor map, I'd say it is better to build unicorns instead of griffins. Even though you might prefer griffins. In other words: what is the best creature to build, is dependent on tactical and strategical reasons, not on the fact that you happen to prefer some creature.
And I must honestly confess that I made quite some of these mistakes myself  . But that just is an extra reason to name them.
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silx87
Supreme Hero
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posted August 22, 2003 08:10 PM |
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No wub,I disagree!
Angel is a better choice than ghost,cuz if u cast cat reflex,fortune,mirth,regeneration,bless,retribution,pain mirror,magic mirror,haste,vampiric touch,aura of fear and then anti magic,the angel can beat the ghost easily!
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RumpleStinken
Tavern Dweller
I will steal your kids
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posted September 30, 2012 10:37 PM |
- penalty applied by Corribus on 01 Oct 2012. |
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HoMM 4 is a hard game because:
1000 gold daily?
Level 4 dwellings cost 15000
Growth daily
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I love babies
They are so cute
And a delicacy
Give me babies to eat
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Manta
Adventuring Hero
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posted April 02, 2013 01:54 PM |
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Somebody said this to me once...
"You must be cheating cause you have a fully built castle on the fourth month!'
My response was:
"Well yeah! Why wouldn't i have it fully built by then?"
Seriously...
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Da_venom
Hired Hero
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posted April 03, 2013 04:09 PM |
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Quote:
HoMM 4 is a hard game because:
1000 gold daily?
Level 4 dwellings cost 15000
Growth daily
lol what sort of argument is this
at trading post or market u can exchange excess recources for money in which makes it easier to get that fast amount
other than that there is nobility side skills called estates and basic mining
a level 10 GM estates gives 500+10% per level so level 10 is +100%^income
you get yourself an extra 1000 for nothing
and the higher level u get the more money u get ^^
and with mining it's just the resources in which in return u could trade for anything
Also I think there is also a big misunderstanding in keeping your units alive and what stacks too fight with your army
cause in PVP MASSES count!
if u keep losing 1-2 units battling every neutral stack, by the end when u have reached your opponent you could already be 10+ units behind just cause u let units die( in which case it doesn't really matter what units you've lost)
it's very important to MINIMALISE the casualties u take
the bigger your stacks get the better!
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Drakon-Deus
Undefeatable Hero
Qapla'
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posted April 03, 2013 04:45 PM |
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Saying you're a n00b because you prefer building Champions or Dragon Golems, or using just one hero in your army.
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Horses don't die on a dog's wish.
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