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Heroes Community > Heroes 4 - Lands of Axeoth > Thread: Use Heroes to win Heroes IV
Thread: Use Heroes to win Heroes IV This thread is 2 pages long: 1 2 · NEXT»
DarkVenom
DarkVenom


Adventuring Hero
Grandmaster Daywalker
posted October 22, 2002 08:30 AM bonus applied.

Use Heroes to win Heroes IV

Hi Folks!

Do you notice the significant change in battles in HOMM IV? You can use as many heroes in battle and even command them to attack in battle. If a hero has fallen in battle, he can be resurrected as long as the troop can maintain his corpse.

This opens up an opportunity not to lose any creature in battle just by using only heroes. If any hero has fallen other heroes can carry him to nearest town. It would be more fun if you were attacking an enemy’s town. As long as you can defeat the enemy, you don’t have to worry about how many heroes’ life are at lost. After you win the battle, they are all resurrected!

Here is some tip you can use heroes to win Heroes IV:

1: Fill your army with only heroes. (You can leave one room to take your favorite creature; mine is Vampire but the best is of course Fairy Dragon)

2: Get your heroes a lot of exp with independent troop before you attack an enemy town.

3: Here is an ideal heroes arrangement and spells:
 -Include two Elven Archers, one Barbarian, one Knight and two spell-casters.
 -Use Life magic/Nature magic and Chaos magic/Death magic for two spell-casters.
 -At least get all of your heroes Grandmaster Combat skill. (That seems to be hard but not exactly)
 -If you use Vampire get the Necromancer spell to Grands or get Nature Grands otherwise.
-Get attacking heroes something to shoot (like bow or Archer spell itself).
 -Finally get the attacking heroes all skills form Combat skill to Grands.
 -If you have extra exp, get Path-finding or other skills to boost your movement on terrain so that you got some advantage over enemies.

4. Use Vampire or Elementals to attract enemy to get out from garrison while attacking towns.

5. Get a lot of Immorality portions so that if a hero dies in a combat he will be constantly resurrected.

6. Defend your less exp heroes with a more exp heroes especially those heroes with Combat Grands.

7. Use quick combat if you think you can defeat an enemy army. Don’t worry about heroes lost. You can always resurrect them later.

By this way, you don’t have to worry about defending your towns because all other creatures can defend your town while your heroes are progressing through a level.
I use this way through Stage I (Human) through Stage IV (Elven), and computer can’t even have a change to fight back. I am currently at Level V (Death).

Finally, the important thing is if you think you are about to win, cool it! Take a sleep (I mean it literally) and give the computer a chance to gather more troops. This way your heroes will get more exp form fighting these troops and will be well prepared for the next level.

Bye now…

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Nidhgrin
Nidhgrin


Honorable
Famous Hero
baking cookies from stardust
posted October 22, 2002 09:54 AM

Good post DarkVenom.  I actually use a similar technique when playing XL maps or campaigns.  For large maps I would advice to take 3-4 heroes and 2-3 for medium maps.

The coolest part is, as you said already, that you still have all your creatures left to defend your towns.  And by using your caravans at the right time, you can combine armies from separate towns to have a more powerful defense in one.  Additional pluses for this strategy are the movement speed (heroes are fast) and indeed the fact that you can raise heroes at sanctuaries or in towns.

My way of playing 'heroes only' is slightly different though.  This would be my buildup for an XL map.
x One necromancer hero, with grandmaster necromancy as soon as possible.
x One order mage, going to grandmaster order magic from the start (skipping charm if possible)
x One life mage, not needing resurrection.
o Optional.  Tactics is not a bad choice but scouting is usually better as it extends army movement.
o Optional.  Choice between nature, secondary order or death, maybe life.  Most probably tactics though, if hero 4 was a scouting hero.

The key is to start with two heroes and adding a third week 2, then two more a while later.  All heroes should, as you mentioned, have GM Combat in the end, GM Magic Resistance is also extremely desirable.  Basic life magic skills are always nice to have for all heroes.  Immortality potions should be used by all heroes and many should be equipped in inventory.  A good division of artifacts among your heroes also helps a lot, and the vampires you get through GM necromancy are a nice decoy in battle.

Why this buildup?  Necromancers are weak initially, but the necromancy helps a lot and the highest death spells are among the best in the game.  Hand of death, raise vamps, Sacrifice (if you take along sacrifice creature stacks), but also vampiric touch, aura of fear, and especially the mass curses.  The order mage is the most important spellcaster in this army.  Hypnotize, teleport, mass slow, blind, town gate...  The life hero is formidably good in a heroes only army because of spells like sanctuary (even with the turn limit) and guardian angel and abilities to heal party members or resurrect them.  That's why it's good for all heroes to have a little bit of life magic.  Scouting?  Yes, definitely, the speed boost and no terrain penalty are bonuses that are not to be underestimated.  This hero usually has the best melee and archery artifacts because he/she'll function as the 'barbarian' in this army.  Tactics?  Why not, the morale increase comes in handy and the boosts to damage and defense are also significant.  This hero should also be given good melee and archery artifacts.  Why no nature or chaos?  Nature is good for certain spells like stone skin, giant&dragon strength, mass snake strike and anti magic.  The summoning may get your army through the early game easier, but is way too slow and rather useless at the late game.  I mean, what's summoning 3-4 phoenixes compared to hypnotizing enemies, hand of death'ing 9 creatures or giving a hero many extra lives?  Why no chaos mage?  Chaos spells do their job against creatures, but magic resistant heroes/creatures cannot be damaged, so that makes your chaos hero worthless in certain situations.

I'm sure there are other ways of making a hero-only army, this one works best for me.  Though the first month is usually quite hard to survive, this army is practically unbeatable in the long run (as long as you don't run out of spellpoints too soon).

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privatehudson
privatehudson


Responsible
Legendary Hero
The Ultimate Badass
posted October 22, 2002 10:59 AM

Well short of the Emalia campaign I have never used hero only armies with 7 heroes, but I have used hero only armies before to a lesser extent. Used properly, with sufficent Order mages (to prevent fire from archer units with spells like blind and hypnotise) it works a treat. Basically I usually take a couple of good Order mages to silence enemy fire, a combat hero to fight up close and personal and a necromancer twinned with nature magic if possible for that all important summon devil spell

During one battle of the Order campaign though I did get Emalia with Grandmaster Necromancy and archery so I was able to send her off pretty much on her own and hoover up wandering armies to create vamps. Pretty soon she was able to take out single handedly enemy armies and capture their castles
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sikmar
sikmar


Promising
Known Hero
The Moonchild
posted October 22, 2002 11:07 AM

Yes, is a good idea, and campaings fully demonstrate it. I remember my Tawni Balfour spreading havoc by herself, or only with a fast black dragon escort. Now I am playing the Gathering Storm campaigns, and I really, really, really hope that the final battle against Hexis will be a heroes battle.

In these campaigns you fully develop up to FIVE superheroes (and I mean TRUE superheroes). At the moment I have developed three of them: an absolute spy girl (GM Stealth and good combat abilities), a strong barbarian and the ultimate spellcaster (Bohb) With these heroes united (they have been specially designed to master different skills and make a good team) and their carried over combo artifacts I only can dream the total firepower they will deliver in the final battle... poor Hexis :-P

In my humble opinion, heroes management is the best improving HOMM4 has brought to the series. Now we only need good mapmakers taking advantage of this to make great RPG scenarios based in heroes abilities. But I understand they have a hard work to prevent the AI from being a moron...

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Djive
Djive


Honorable
Supreme Hero
Zapper of Toads
posted October 22, 2002 12:28 PM

Well, you can use Heroes only also in the Life Campaign.

I replayed the campaign on Vhampion difficulty and basically, I was never really in need of having something else beyond campaign 1. (Generally I had a group of Sprites tagging along to speed up the army but otherwise the group was more or less invincible.)

Just to make sure I had some extra creatures when fighting the Behemoths on scenario 3 but I doubt I really needed them.

In the campaign your start Heroes will provide most of your army strength several weeks into the campaigns. It just takes that long before your towns can produce enough creatures.

Just a few things though...

Tactics skills offer no bonuses to your Heroes. Only creatures are affected by the bonuses. Therefore playing only Heroes you do not really need a Tactics Hero, and many artifacts also become near useless, since they only affect your creatures.

If however you decide to use your creatures in a combat then you need that Tactics Hero.

Also even if you leave all your creatures at home, with your suggested developement the opponent may outproduce you by hiring Lords. Even if you don't lose a creature during the game the enemy can still have more creatures than you.

On L/XL maps Diplomacy can at times net you an amazing amount of creatures. If you get Month of the XXX for an allied creature, it's just to go around and collect. Getting a Legion of level 1s is not difficult.

You don't necessarily get an advantage by teaming your heroes together. The opponent may spread their heroes and could perhaps expand much faster.

Your heroes will share experience which means that they will level up at a fairly slow pace. Getting GM in a magic school and combat will take quite some time.
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"A brilliant light can either illuminate or blind. How will you know which until you open your eyes?"

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Nidhgrin
Nidhgrin


Honorable
Famous Hero
baking cookies from stardust
posted October 22, 2002 12:48 PM

Good thing you told us that about the Tactics hero, I did never check if his bonuses counted for heroes, just assumed that.  It's a pity, but a nature or chaos hero (or additional order) is always nice to take along too.

This is a very valuable thing you bring up here, I forgot to mention that.  It's good to split your heroes up sometimes.  Especially the hero with scouting is very useful when stealth is reasonably developed.  Splitting up hero armies is also good to take all resources,mines... in an area much faster than one army stack can.  Keeping your heroes at a 2-3 days travel (max) from each other is the message though.  Alone they are far too specialized and won't last long agaist serious armies.

I disagree with the point where you say teaming up isn't necessarily an advantage.  I'd rather have 5 lvl 18 heroes than one level 28 and a couple of 1-6 heroes.  When a good hero alignment is made, it's almost unbeatable and very much needed against really powerful foes.  Btw exploration can still be done with creatures and/or low level thieves.

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Djive
Djive


Honorable
Supreme Hero
Zapper of Toads
posted October 22, 2002 01:20 PM

"I disagree with the point where you say teaming up isn't necessarily an advantage.  I'd rather have 5 lvl 18 heroes than one level 28 and a couple of 1-6 heroes."

With Team-up I meant that you put all heroes in 1 army and go exploring.

I'm not developing my heroes in the way you suggest. The Heroes usually work in pairs and each pair has a seizeable army with them. Enough to handle most threats, but some neutrals will have to be ignored.

But each pair of heroes ARE developed to roughly the same levels. The main difference is that I don't see the need to amass all my best heroes in one army. They will do a lot more good if I spread them out.

They will join briefly at times to exchange artifacts and so on.

The problem with Thieves is that they need to be mid-level before they can do the scouting you hope for. And if you get your Thief to GM Pathfinding, then you will want to join the Thief to (one of) your main armies because of the Logistics bonus the Thief gives.

The need to unite your heroes usually only comes when you're massing your troops for the final battles of the map.
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"A brilliant light can either illuminate or blind. How will you know which until you open your eyes?"

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Largo_LeGrande
Largo_LeGrande


Promising
Known Hero
from the Carribean
posted October 22, 2002 02:52 PM

The heroes that spread horror and chaos throughout the enemies are stand-alone-stealth-heroes equipped with couple of immortality potions!
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-Largo has spoken-

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csarmi
csarmi


Supreme Hero
gets back
posted October 22, 2002 03:59 PM

Quote:

Tactics?  Why not, the morale increase comes in handy and the boosts to damage and defense are also significant.  



Tactics do NOT work on heroes.

Quote:

Why no nature or chaos?  



I never skip nature magic. That's the most important part of the game. For three low-level spells alone:
Quicksand, Wasp Swarm, Anti-Magic

Also summoning comes in handy for you always have scouts with you.
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Yes, I play the game only on the forums.

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csarmi
csarmi


Supreme Hero
gets back
posted October 22, 2002 04:04 PM

Quote:

In these campaigns you fully develop up to FIVE superheroes (and I mean TRUE superheroes). At the moment I have developed three of them: an absolute spy girl (GM Stealth and good combat abilities), a strong barbarian and the ultimate spellcaster (Bohb) With these heroes united (they have been specially designed to master different skills and make a good team) and their carried over combo artifacts I only can dream the total firepower they will deliver in the final battle... poor Hexis :-P



I do have those five superheroes and doing the last campaign. Well, they don't really work well together. Also they have like -11 morale each. Bohb is really weak - one hit on him and he dies. The bard girl is nice to have, but you don't have time to send her on a mission and border gates are defended properly (no sneaking through). So it is not that easy. But it's fun to defeat a stack that consist of: 60 Dark Champions, 30 Gargantuans, 111 Evil Sorceresses and 274 Goblin Nights. :-)
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Yes, I play the game only on the forums.

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csarmi
csarmi


Supreme Hero
gets back
posted October 22, 2002 04:08 PM

So the message: just try to team up 5-6 heroes and look at the result: you have the mass sorrow spell cast on you!
____________
Yes, I play the game only on the forums.

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Djive
Djive


Honorable
Supreme Hero
Zapper of Toads
posted October 22, 2002 04:44 PM

Quote:
So the message: just try to team up 5-6 heroes and look at the result: you have the mass sorrow spell cast on you!


Not necessarily. Just make sure you only use two alignments of heroes/creatures and make those alignments allied, and you will have a morale of 0.

The gathering storm campaign is a bit special because the heroes are all of different alignments and then you get these huge penalties.

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privatehudson
privatehudson


Responsible
Legendary Hero
The Ultimate Badass
posted October 22, 2002 04:50 PM

That's true as the Order campaign battle where there are 7 order heroes never has this problem
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We're on an express elevator to Hell, goin' down!

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Wub
Wub


Responsible
Famous Hero
posted October 22, 2002 05:45 PM
Edited By: Wub on 22 Oct 2002

Since I have just finished the Life campaign for the second time on 200% too, I can comment well on Djive's post. Here is what I learned from all campaigns:

Quote:

Well, you can use Heroes only also in the Life Campaign.

I replayed the campaign on Champion difficulty and basically, I was never really in need of having something else beyond campaign 1. (Generally I had a group of Sprites tagging along to speed up the army but otherwise the group was more or less invincible.)



I fully agree with this. Even walkthroughs on recognized heroes 4 internet sites keep telling me to add creatures to my army. I say: just choose for your heroes the right skills and you never need creatures after the first map (well, at least not in the Life campaign). Let your hero specialize in combat and a magic skill and you can win each battle with your hero alone. Later you can even add extra magic skills. To give an idea how powerful this is: in the first level of the Life campaign, I had to face 39 venom spawn. Still, a single level 8 hero (that wasn't even really pumped up) was enough to win the battle without immortality potions. Taking creatures with you should indeed be done primarily to speed up your heroes. I also brought a level 2 druid over to the next level to increase my heroes' speed with sprites.

Quote:

Just to make sure I had some extra creatures when fighting the Behemoths on scenario 3 but I doubt I really needed them.



You're right, not even there creatures are necessary. With an order mage and berserk, the job became pretty easy.

Quote:

In the campaign your start Heroes will provide most of your army strength several weeks into the campaigns. It just takes that long before your towns can produce enough creatures.



Exactly. It takes weeks before you have enough creatures to start exploring. Instead, give your heroes the right skills so that they do not need creatures. It's a lot faster!

Quote:

Just a few things though...

Tactics skills offer no bonuses to your Heroes. Only creatures are affected by the bonuses. Therefore playing only Heroes you do not really need a Tactics Hero, and many artifacts also become near useless, since they only affect your creatures.



I find tactics useless in campaigns. Instead, use the levels that you spend on tactics for combat or magic. Also, stealth and nobility are skills that should be avoided even when they are free.

Quote:

If however you decide to use your creatures in a combat then you need that Tactics Hero.



Not even then I would build up that tactics hero. In all the campaigns, I probably needed creatures after the first map less than ten times. And in those few cases it was to take out a stationary hero. When I recruited creatures from all the castles I had conquered by that time, I vastly outnumbered my enemy. No tactics needed for that.

Quote:

Also even if you leave all your creatures at home, with your suggested developement the opponent may outproduce you by hiring Lords. Even if you don't lose a creature during the game the enemy can still have more creatures than you.



That rarely happens, but still, I often found a single hero to be sufficient to finish the non stationary armies.

Quote:

On L/XL maps Diplomacy can at times net you an amazing amount of creatures. If you get Month of the XXX for an allied creature, it's just to go around and collect. Getting a Legion of level 1s is not difficult.



Why bother taking diplomacy? You will need lots of creatures on your own to convince enemy creatures to join and you don't need the joiners anyway. If they don't give you a morale penalty, they may slow you down considerably.

Quote:

You don't necessarily get an advantage by teaming your heroes together. The opponent may spread their heroes and could perhaps expand much faster.



I rarely see my computer hero expanding in campaigns. But you could spread your own heroes to cover territory faster (as Nidhgrin proposed). However, in the Life campaign the maps are quite lineair, so you don't need to do that.

Quote:

Your heroes will share experience which means that they will level up at a fairly slow pace. Getting GM in a magic school and combat will take quite some time.



True, but it is not too big of a disadvantage. You've got plenty of libraries, veteran's guilds and trees of knowledge to increase your skills. Admittedly, my order mage didn't reach level 18 by far in the first level, but she knew master order magic by then and also master magic resistance, grandmaster archery and grandmaster combat (if I recall correctly). With spells such as mass slow, forgetfulness, berserk and teleport, I never experienced any problems with any creature stack.

Quote:

I never skip nature magic. That's the most important part of the game. For three low-level spells alone:
Quicksand, Wasp Swarm, Anti-Magic

Also summoning comes in handy for you always have scouts with you.



I can agree with most of that, csarmi, though I like order magic better than nature magic for the spells I mentioned above. Also, I like nature magic for a wider variety of spells you named. By the way, if I were to take summoning, than never on my main hero.

Also, I like to build up the pathfinding skill on (one of) my main hero(es). Fifty percent extra movement is great to keep you going. Also I can strongly advise not to ignore the magic resistance secondary skill. You may only benefit from it in a few battles but, believe me, you're glad when you have it in that case.

I hope my strategies sound convincing. If not, I would appreciate feedback.

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csarmi
csarmi


Supreme Hero
gets back
posted October 22, 2002 06:11 PM
Edited By: csarmi on 22 Oct 2002

I strongly agree, of course, you NEVER need any creatures in your armies in any of your campaigns. After the first scenario, that is.

I never use them.

Quote:

Why bother taking diplomacy? You will need lots of creatures on your own to convince enemy creatures to join and you don't need the joiners anyway. If they don't give you a morale penalty, they may slow you down considerably.



It's only half-true. You don't need any creatures to make the enemy think they be overpowered.

Also, as you said, thief heroes are a must have. I finished almost all normal campaigns with heroes specialized in stealth. For example, Wearjak had GM Stealth, Scouting and Pathfinding. His assistant hero also had that. It's so easy to get XP with that and don't forget the bonus: you have all reasources just when you want them. Not that you'd need those resources anyways, but at least the border guards and things like that are no problem.

Quote:

By the way, if I were to take summoning, than never on my main hero.


So why not? Most cases it is free. Basic summoning is enough to get your resource-pickers.

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privatehudson
privatehudson


Responsible
Legendary Hero
The Ultimate Badass
posted October 22, 2002 06:26 PM

IMO Diplomacy can be sometimes of use as it sometimes works and you can then use these troops to garrison mines and gates from the enemy, providing scouts and keeping watch on areas. It frees up the main army from it anyways.
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Djive
Djive


Honorable
Supreme Hero
Zapper of Toads
posted October 22, 2002 06:27 PM

Quote:

Just to make sure I had some extra creatures when fighting the Behemoths on scenario 3 but I doubt I really needed them.



You're right, not even there creatures are necessary. With an order mage and berserk, the job became pretty easy.

=> I only had Expert Order at this time. My Mage had spent some slots too many on Combat skills.

Quote:

If however you decide to use your creatures in a combat then you need that Tactics Hero.



Not even then I would build up that tactics hero. In all the campaigns, I probably needed creatures after the first map less than ten times.

=> I was speaking single scenarios here. In those cases the creature production of say two towns are likely to keep even strength with your hero.

=> Also, you will be at a considerable disadvantage against a human opponent WITH the Tactics skill.

Quote:

Also even if you leave all your creatures at home, with your suggested developement the opponent may outproduce you by hiring Lords. Even if you don't lose a creature during the game the enemy can still have more creatures than you.



That rarely happens, but still, I often found a single hero to be sufficient to finish the non stationary armies.

=> Again this is single scenario hotseat/multiplayer. Expect to meet boosted up hero(es) on the other side also. I'm not speaking Ai heroes here, but a hero which a player has taken care to have developed and with a lot of extra bonuses and as strong as your own.

Quote:

On L/XL maps Diplomacy can at times net you an amazing amount of creatures. If you get Month of the XXX for an allied creature, it's just to go around and collect. Getting a Legion of level 1s is not difficult.



Why bother taking diplomacy? You will need lots of creatures on your own to convince enemy creatures to join and you don't need the joiners anyway. If they don't give you a morale penalty, they may slow you down considerably.

=> They never give much of a morale penalty. Diplomacy works on allied creatures (to the hero with Diplomacy) only. Usually, you split away the hero from your main army (if joined there) and join with a lot of other creatures and then go collecting the creature of the month. Generally, speed is nice but it's not all that important  in this case. Your exploring and conquering army is elsewhere.

=> Usually, you would do something similar anyway to clear caravan routes between towns.

I rarely see my computer hero expanding in campaigns. But you could spread your own heroes to cover territory faster (as Nidhgrin proposed). However, in the Life campaign the maps are quite lineair, so you don't need to do that.

=> I was speaking against other humans. The Ai can beaten with almost any tactics.

Quote:

Your heroes will share experience which means that they will level up at a fairly slow pace. Getting GM in a magic school and combat will take quite some time.



True, but it is not too big of a disadvantage. You've got plenty of libraries, veteran's guilds and trees of knowledge to increase your skills.

=> True, but your HUMAN opponent will also use those. The difference between having six best heroes in one army is that you will expand only in the direction this army is moving. If you have three armies with two heroes you can expand in three directions.

=> My guess is that the three armies will encounter and defeat more enemies and be able to pick up more goodies than the one single army will.

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csarmi
csarmi


Supreme Hero
gets back
posted October 22, 2002 07:09 PM

Yes, playing against the AI and a HUMAN is to be different. I've never played against human player anyways. I seldom have the oppurtunity to do so.

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privatehudson
privatehudson


Responsible
Legendary Hero
The Ultimate Badass
posted October 22, 2002 08:15 PM

Well I've only played hotseat as my internet computer would go into meltdown if I tried to get H4 onto it

In heroes 4 multi though it is completely different as the opponent actually has a brain and learns usually if you play them often enough to adopt your tactics......... if your opponent has a brain though
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japjer
japjer


Adventuring Hero
posted October 22, 2002 11:41 PM

i played order and life campaigns with only heroes. life campaign was the easiest by far for me, just because i had 2 GM life mages. there was no way i could lose, they cast regeneration the first round or two, and when one gets killed, the other one just casts divine intervention, though i didn't need it much, for i gave lysander order magic.
and this was the first game i played!

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