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Heroes Community > Heroes 4 - Lands of Axeoth > Thread: Use Heroes to win Heroes IV
Thread: Use Heroes to win Heroes IV [ This thread is 2 pages long: 1 (2) ]
DarkVenom
DarkVenom


Adventuring Hero
Grandmaster Daywalker
posted October 23, 2002 02:48 AM

Quote:
Though the first month is usually quite hard to survive, this army is practically unbeatable in the long run (as long as you don't run out of spellpoints too soon).


Yes, you mention one thing very very important that I forgot to mention. Spell-point are the most important thing in whether it's heroes only army or not. I sometime have to reload the game just because I realize my heroes' spell point run out in the middle of a battle. But you don't need any spell-point boosting skills though.Instead spend those exp on other important skill like Combat.

Necromancer Grands is a must. What is better than getting lv 3 creatures free?

BTW, I've never actually use Life magic heroes in my army. The only spell I like in Life magic is Mass Heal though I perfer immorality portion. Guradian Angel is good but most of time you don't need it. I've never use Town Gate spell. Is it really cool?

Waiting for other different heroes arrangements...
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csarmi
csarmi


Supreme Hero
gets back
posted October 23, 2002 08:04 AM

It's annoying to get those crappy 3 Vampires. Any other GM skills are just as good, or even better. Necromancy is a pain in the neck. Until GM, that is, and hard to build that - too many prerequisities,

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Nidhgrin
Nidhgrin


Honorable
Famous Hero
baking cookies from stardust
posted October 23, 2002 08:22 AM
Edited By: Nidhgrin on 23 Oct 2002

@DarkVenom: Town gate is the most precious spell ever if you're going down with a heroes only army.  You are instantly transported out of combat into your closest town where your dead heroes are raised.  Furthermore it has little use.  Illusions and raised creatures remain fighting on the battlefield after your 'real' army is gone.  Could be a nasty hit'n run technique if perfectionized, it could also be a bug that still has to be removed.


@csarmi: All subskill specialties (charm, resurrection, ...) have that many prerequisities.  Personally I believe that Stealth, Magic Resistance and Necromancy are the best.  Charm helps, but isn't that impressive for a hero only army.  Ressurection is useless in a hero only army, plus it only works when you actually have losses.  Summoning is quite nice, but it takes patience to gather a good amount of elementals. (AE make very good scouts though) Chaos 100% extra damage is great, but only for that one hero.

With GM necromancy you collect vamps after almost every battle.  They soon form a very considerable force (you hardly ever lose them) in an army and they are fast and good scouts.  I think GM necro is the best special subskill there is to take in a hero only army.  Edit: Of course you can start questioning if it is a heroes only army still in that case...

In any different kind of army it can be a pain in the neck, true.  The loss of morale and the first levels (skels, ghosts) do not pay off that much unless you play necro.

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csarmi
csarmi


Supreme Hero
gets back
posted October 23, 2002 11:04 AM

Subskill specialties are mostly useless - though getting basic isn't bad cause then you get some free creatures for picking and exploring.

Let's see:

Resurrection: it's a crap. Who wants to have losses? especially in a heroes army.

Summoning: sucks. Even at GM, you summon too weak and not numerous enough.

Diplomacy: not a big deal. If you are that strong, go and kill the enemy.

Charm: not a good one again.

Sorcery: that can be really useless, but, as you mentioned, one hero.

Necromancy: annoying at lower levels and not good enough at higher levels. 2-3-4 Vampires/battle is nothing. Unless you are on a huge map. (no time to collect enough)

I believe that any other GM is better.

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Wub
Wub


Responsible
Famous Hero
posted October 23, 2002 11:24 AM

Quote:

It's only half-true. You don't need any creatures to make the enemy think they be overpowered.



Admittedly, you don't necessarily need additional creatures for the diplomacy skill to work. But I keep finding my nearly invincible heroes being attacked by a miserable army of 150 squires in the neutral creatures turn. Let alone that they would offer to join me for money when I attacked them. Or am I mistaken about the size of  creature stacks that can be bought with a heroes only army?

Quote:

Also, as you said, thief heroes are a must have. I finished almost all normal campaigns with heroes specialized in stealth.



I hardly ever take stealth in campaigns. I meant that if I take the scouting skill, it is to get GM pathfinding. Sneaking past creatures is not necessary when you can kill them outright and the experience you gain from it is used for that stealth skill anyway (be it directly or indirectly). Maybe in an older of version of Heroes 4 stealth was good for campaigns, since you got 3 times as many experience from sneaking on Champion difficulty as you get now (if I recall correctly). And I can imagine that when you have given Waerjak the few skills he can profit from (combat, expert nature, GM pathfinding) that you choose stealth then. But otherwise I find stealth not useful in campaigns. Of course, in single scenarios it is a different story.

If I choose to take summoning, I usually don't give it to my main hero because I don't want to spend my time in libraries (etc.) to upgrade the skill. If you just want to have some scouting critters, you don't need GM summoning. But you're right, csarmi, it isn't a real big problem to give the skill to your main hero.

Quote:

IMO Diplomacy can be sometimes of use as it sometimes works and you can then use these troops to garrison mines and gates from the enemy, providing scouts and keeping watch on areas. It frees up the main army from it anyways.



My strategy (in single scenarios) is to spend the experience that you need for diplomacy elsewhere. Later in the game I often develop 2 armies for taking out neutral monsters, a fast one and a slow one. The slow one moves mainly near my town, so it is still pretty effective in defending my economy. Therefore I don't take diplomacy creatures, but maybe I should give that strategy a try.

@Djive: I thought you were still commenting on strategies that can be used in campaigns. Of course I agree that building up a tactics hero is very desirable in single scenarios, especially against humans. In that case, I wouldn't put too many heroes in my army either. My ideas on splitting armies and not needing any particular strategies to defeat the AI are similar to yours as well. I still think that diplomacy can cause considerable morale problems, though, because mixing three different alignments usually gives a morale penalty of -5 to the two out of three alignments that are in your army.

About towngate: it is one of the best spells. Not only because of hit & run perspective, but also from a logisitc point of view. Add to that the fact that you aren't transported to the nearest town if you block it with armies and the fact that it is only a level 3 spell, and you will see that this is one of the spells that makes order magic formidable.

About necromancy: I think that once you reach it, you are unstoppable (in single scenarios that is). You need to be level 9-10 first (unless you visit locations) but after that you can easily gain 15 vampires per week. Just imagine how many that is! Especially on closed maps, GM necromancy is what makes Death very powerful when you don't deal with them quickly. I'm not really convinced about the usefulness of it in the Death campaign though. You only need the vamps to speed you up anyway, and you are fighting a lot of undead (which cannot be raised).

About the 'subskill specialties': Only necromancy is worth it for me. A skill such as sorcery for example is very often just less effective than your pyromancy skill.


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Djive
Djive


Honorable
Supreme Hero
Zapper of Toads
posted October 23, 2002 11:55 AM

Resurrection: You will never be able to ressurrect a Hero. (Can't reach 100%.) So no use in a Hero only army.

Summoning: Isn't bad. Use it to get Sprites and the continue to summon sprites for the rest of the game. Does wonders for your movement allowance.

NOTE: Summoning gives creatures as follows: 10 (Basic), 20 (Adv.), 30 (Exp), 40 (Master) and 50 (GM) XP/day.

A town produces XP as follows:
Level 4: 1200 XP/week.
Level 3: 600 XP/ week
Level 2: 300 XP/week
Level 1: 150 XP/week.

The conclusion is that GM summoning is better than an additional level 2 dwelling, with the extra benefits that the recruits are free and you can choose from about a dozen creatures. That's not bad if you're playing Preserve!

Sorcery: Increases damage made by spells from one Hero. Can be useful.

Necromancy: Necromancy gives perhaps 3 Vampires/battle or about 600 XP. Four such battles and you have the full army strength that one town can produce in one week. Even on lower levels Necromancy are not all that bad. Once you get Expert you make Ghosts and Ghosts are fast. This skill is overpowered when compared to the other 3rd choice secondary skills. It gives way too many XP worth of creatures.

Charm: Charm is not all that good. You get only half the creatures as compared to Diplomacy. While the freatures are free you tend to get creatures which you have little use for.

Diplomacy: You don't need to be particularly strong to sway Month of the XXXX creatures. However, you need a Large/XL Map or the game would be pretty much over before you get to use this skill properly.

Wub: You can get three different alignments, but nothing prevents you from rearranging your troops a bit so you avoid the morale penalty you mentioned. Using Diplomacy often means that you will have an additional army trailing behind you to pick up troops which overflows your 7 slots.

Magic Resistance: It's nice to protect your Heroes. More or less required if you face certain types of foes.

Leadership: Utterly useless in a Heroes only group. Gives no benefits at all.

Stealth: Also useless while in the group. Though, if you split away the Hero it will give you some extra XP.

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csarmi
csarmi


Supreme Hero
gets back
posted October 23, 2002 02:46 PM

Quote:


NOTE: Summoning gives creatures as follows: 10 (Basic), 20 (Adv.), 30 (Exp), 40 (Master) and 50 (GM) XP/day.

A town produces XP as follows:
Level 4: 1200 XP/week.
Level 3: 600 XP/ week
Level 2: 300 XP/week
Level 1: 150 XP/week.



+10% per level of the hero
So multiply it. You get to the result, that having GM summoning on a level 15 hero yields you almost 1000 XP/week, so it is actually better than having another Altar of Summoning or an extra level 3 dwelling.

But you pay very high price for it either! When you get to this point, the game is either over, or that extra dwelling does not matter at all. So you have 300 water elementals instead of 200? And then what? The enemy comes and kills your hero with a single fireball, because you did not have the points to invest in Magic Resistance. Then his hero flees (it was a secondary hero anyways) and his main army attacks you with no hero left. Should I tell you the result?

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Djive
Djive


Honorable
Supreme Hero
Zapper of Toads
posted October 23, 2002 03:23 PM
Edited By: Djive on 23 Oct 2002

+10% per level of the hero

=> No. Summoning does not have the +10% per level. Even a level 20 hero with summoning will still just summon roughly 1 water elemental or 50 XP per day.

=> Your example is constructed. And Cloaks that gives 50% or 70% magic restance are not uncommon. For the better heroes you will need to assume that they are wearing some protection, and you also have to assume that they have an Immortality potion applied.

=> Besides, you can't really count on attacking my army first with a single Hero, and if some of my troops go first then your sorcerer may not live to cast any spells at all.

=> And you can't count on the hero with summoning being my best hero leading my best army. Perhaps I just have the hero to enforce my troops with new recruits?

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csarmi
csarmi


Supreme Hero
gets back
posted October 23, 2002 04:02 PM

Quote:
+10% per level of the hero

=> No. Summoning does not have the +10% per level. Even a level 20 hero with summoning will still just summon roughly 1 water elemental or 50 XP per day.


Ah, so that is the reason I used to get so crappy summons with Elwin. Then either the guide was incorrect or I misread something.

Quote:

=> Your example is constructed. And Cloaks that gives 50% or 70% magic restance are not uncommon. For the better heroes you will need to assume that they are wearing some protection, and you also have to assume that they have an Immortality potion applied.



Of course it is. I only wanted to give a fast and easy example.

Quote:

=> Besides, you can't really count on attacking my army first with a single Hero, and if some of my troops go first then your sorcerer may not live to cast any spells at all.



Maybe I can't. Not a single hero then, but you see the point.

Quote:

=> And you can't count on the hero with summoning being my best hero leading my best army. Perhaps I just have the hero to enforce my troops with new recruits?



Yes, that's true, but then you have wasted a lot of XP which you could have used better.

Then take your super-hero(es) of yours which has -3 level...

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DarkVenom
DarkVenom


Adventuring Hero
Grandmaster Daywalker
posted October 24, 2002 01:50 AM

Quote:
@DarkVenom: Town gate is the most precious spell ever if you're going down with a heroes only army.  You are instantly transported out of combat into your closest town where your dead heroes are raised.  Furthermore it has little use.  Illusions and raised creatures remain fighting on the battlefield after your 'real' army is gone.



Thank for showing me how to use Town gate, Nidhgrin! I had never use Town gate since my first HOMM game Chronicle. But then again maybe I donít need it at all! I was also finding a way for raised creatures-only battles (BTW, my necro is so good at summoning). Now I can sleep at night.

Quote:

Could be a nasty hit'n run technique if perfectionized, it could also be a bug that still has to be removed.



If it is a bug, itís a nice bug! So donít tell 3DO ok?


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Djive
Djive


Honorable
Supreme Hero
Zapper of Toads
posted October 24, 2002 03:39 AM

Quote:
Yes, that's true, but then you have wasted a lot of XP which you could have used better.

Then take your super-hero(es) of yours which has -3 level...


Believe it or not there are a lot of other skills that gives less than Summoning. Summoning is not the best skill but it's about average.

And besides if I want to get sprites or elves/tigers I don't have to spend all that many slots on getting Summoning do I?

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csarmi
csarmi


Supreme Hero
gets back
posted October 24, 2002 04:53 AM

Quote:

Believe it or not there are a lot of other skills that gives less than Summoning. Summoning is not the best skill but it's about average.

And besides if I want to get sprites or elves/tigers I don't have to spend all that many slots on getting Summoning do I?



OK, let us agree on that. Average. If you cannot get something better, that'll do.
My problem is that I always try to do my best, so average skills are not for me.

Speaking of necromancy, I am convinced.

You spoke about skills. How would you rank EACH skills? And regarding this topic?

I have some questions. Maybe another thread should be opened for them, but they fit in here for some reasons and this topic seems to be so alive.

1,Movement: what does 15 mean? 15 what?
2,Quicksand: what does 40 feet mean? 40 small hexes?
3,You split your army. Where is the second one placed? What influences that?
4,You cast a summoning spell on the BF. Where is your stack placed? On what depends?
5,Is it true that sumonning XP accumulates? If so, it's not a bad way to surprise the enemy with 102 instant fire elementals :-)

I guess that these points are important when fighting a hero-only battle. I don't know the answers and am still doing good, but I have to reload sometimes.

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Djive
Djive


Honorable
Supreme Hero
Zapper of Toads
posted October 24, 2002 06:17 AM

Best skill:

The problem with rating skills is the tight connection between the Magic skill (which is good), the +spell point and spell point recovery skill (which is good for the few first increases and poor otherwise), and the increase efficiency spell which is average.

The rating will depend on the size of the map, number of towns you have. How much total XP is available. When can you be expected to meet your human opponent?

Generally, though the Combat skill and the Combat group is the most important to develope. Magic Resistance is the one you can gamble with, but you really want your Heroes to have some Magic Resitance and you can't handle certain armies without it.

The only other skill that can compete is Necromancy. Hugely overpowered once you get to GM. If the Map is small and you will barely make GM then there are other better skills, but even then a large amount of Ghosts and Skeletons are not bad.

In any case, developing Magic skills to expert is worthwhile. Spells means more options and to get expert you need 6 skill slots, and with some luck you can get some of them through tuition.

Magic skills can be unreliable though. The Mindshield can often be obtained on larger maps and it gives immunity to a lot of spells.

4. Usually the new stack is placed just before the spellcaster. If there is an existing stack (which has been summoned by your heroes/creatures), the creatures will be added to it.

5. Yes. I've managed to get some 150 White Tigers in one big summoning.

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Miru
Miru


Supreme Hero
A leaf in the river of time
posted December 29, 2005 06:47 PM
Edited by miru on 29 Dec 2005

In the chaos/order campaign in the expansion, get your Hero to have grand master in all chaos skills, and know  Armaggedon. Go into a battle alone and cast armeggedon once, or if its has over 40 level 4 creatures or something, twice. This is realy fun, especialy in seige battles. If all fails and he dies, take your huge army (which was huge because you haven't used it yet except for defense, and is stocked up), which was defending, and attack with it! In all of the previous HoMMs Armaggedon sucked, but now a grand-master with it kicks!
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Hath not the potter power over
the clay, of the same lump to
make one vessel unto honor, and
another unto dishonor?

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AmberBlue
AmberBlue

Tavern Dweller
posted January 03, 2006 05:45 PM

I' not sure if anyone noticed this, so i'll go off topic a bit...
It seems that if you have your army slots filled with unsummonable creatures your summoning skill still works on the background, so when you find a summonable creature after a long period of time, you can get one massive summon of that creature.

The point is, Summoning can (suddenly)create important reinforcement to your army if you use it with care. However you must be familiar with the feeling it gives you by screwing up morale in neutral turns...

Hmmm... obviously subskill specialties cannot be compared in an unbiased way, without taking into account some circumstances (like necromancy vs summoning on a death map). Everything depends on the situation. I disagree with statements like "necromancy is overpowered" or "diplomacy is useless" even if you have some serious arguments to prove it.

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FatFighterian
FatFighterian

Tavern Dweller
posted June 02, 2008 10:56 PM

If you have a sole hero army,you can retreat as often as you like without losing any heroes! The description for retreat is "lose all creatures",not lose "all heroes and creatures".Since you have a sole hero army,the game treats your army as one that has NO creatures and it teleports you back to the closest town without losing any heroes!

The best part is,all heroes that died during the battle will be resurrected! And you can go back and forth to the creature stack,chipping it slowly away.Of course,during the battle you must have at least one hero alive to use the retreat button.

Hope my tip was useful!
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Since WHEN did Mirlanda get so ugly?

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