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Heroes Community > Other Side of the Monitor > Thread: Ethics
Thread: Ethics This thread is 3 pages long: 1 2 3 · «PREV / NEXT»
Hexa
Hexa


Responsible
Legendary Hero
posted October 23, 2002 10:52 AM

Quote:
*sighs*
*hopes a mod comes along soon and sees fit to delete those comments*



Done that. As by requst of the thread maker. Keep this thread ontopic an spam free.

Thread cleaned now!@
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Romana
Romana


Responsible
Supreme Hero
Thx :D
posted October 23, 2002 11:00 AM
Edited By: Romana on 23 Oct 2002

Quote:
What reason does the universe have to provide us a heavenlike afterlife? We havenīt existed billions of billions of years before our births, why should this be different after our deaths? Itīs quite obvious that afterlife is just wishful thinking.


@ lews Please tell me where it's "obvious" that afterlife is wishfull thinking?
Did you by any chance come back from the dead and have the ultimate proof?
Well if you did I congratulate you. You should write a book.
I personally think it's not obvious at all. There are many mysterious things in the world and many things can't be explained with science.
I'm not saying I believe any holy book but I do believe there's more to humankind than we think(or atleast some of us)
Maybe you're right , maybe not..but it certainly isn't "quite obvious"

edit: also I would like to comment on the "what reason>.."
well if there was a reason it wouldn't be called belief now would it.
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Nidhgrin
Nidhgrin


Honorable
Famous Hero
baking cookies from stardust
posted October 23, 2002 11:49 AM

@Lews_Therin:
Quote:
What reason does the universe have to provide us a heavenlike afterlife? We havenīt existed billions of billions of years before our births, why should this be different after our deaths? Itīs quite obvious that afterlife is just wishful thinking.

I agree to a certain degree.  But not completely.  For people who believe in an afterlife, that afterlife truly exists.  Not in a physical manner perhaps, but at least in their heads.  Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying they're having illusions or fantasies.  Their mind, backed up by their religious beliefs, builds a construction that serves as the foundation of their thrust in having an afterlife.  For them, this IS real, there's no denying that.

Reason why many western religions include this idea is the fact that most people in western countries are unable to think in a cyclic way.  Because of our linear thinking, we see a starting point (birth) and an ending point (death).  Because the thought of that ending point is so depressing, people throughout history have decided to extend that line into infinity (heaven, or hell...) to have a future after death.  When you look at life and death in a cyclic fashion, you see that by dying, you make place for new life.  And when you die, your body and mind are 'recycled' in the spiral of life.


@AndiAngelslayer:
Quote:
About religion and violence: religion is a bad thing, there cant be a doubt, too many wars and violence came from it and will come as long as there is religions for the masses.

I couldn't agree more that violence and religion were closely connected in the past and still are.  Millions of people died because of it.  But are the religions themselves so very wrong?  I think it are the corrupted religious institutions that grow around religions that are to blame.  They are the ones who poison the minds of their believers, they are the ones who inspire hate against other beliefs.  A book or an idea can seldomly be wrong, the interpretation, and actions resulting from that interpretation can be terribly wrong.

Ironically one of the reasons why those religious institutions have come to exist is just to bring the religion closer to the people.  In a language easier to understand.  I too shiver, when I step into gigantic cathedrals or immense churces, not because of that certain belief.  But because I know that a lot of blood was spilled and many people had to pay for this pervertedly expensive worshipping monument.


@dEth8:  First and for all, good to see you posting again  Once again, I seem to have expressed myself in a way that could be understood in a different way than I meant.  Let me try to clarify.  With difference between religions I mean the differences on the ouside.  The most remarkable traits that allow us to make a distinction between them, churches for example, or praying faced to Mekka, the lotusposition for meditating, ...  When I was talking about similarities between all of them and the 'basic thruths' I was thinking about the most basic moral values that all of them share.  Killing other humans is not to be done, helping out the needed, ...  I know I sometimes have a hard time to find the right words, hope this clears things up.


@Hexa: Thanks for getting the broom out of the closet

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bizud
bizud


Known Hero
Mighty Donkey
posted October 23, 2002 01:49 PM

I guess we've gotten a little off topic again, although I'm by no means a RELIGIOUS person, I do believe that death isn't neccessarily the end.  I mean, there's enough scientific evidence supporting the existence of ghosts that saying "When you're dead, you die.  Period.  No exceptions, poof, gone" is kind of ignorant.

Anyway, here's my summary of general ethical beliefs:

I have the right to be in control of my own life, as long as it doesn't infringe on others' ability to do the same.

That stated, your own "soul" (DON'T mock me) knows what's right and what's wrong.  It's not hard to understand why it feels good when you help people; we, as humans, have a basic biological urge to do the right thing.

As far as governments go, they should limit their role to providing services like Health Care (we say it's universal in canada, but it really isn't) and defense.  They should butt the hell out of matters like marriage and anything that doesn't directly threaten people's rights to freedom and a happy life.

Right now, my biggest beef is the criminal code.  It's chock full of stupid laws.  For example: For some odd reason, polygamy (being married to multiple partners) is illegal in most western countries.  Why is it governments feel it's their place to decide what people do in their own house?  A truly "enlightened" society would allow people to make their own decisions.  I know, the law exists to protect women from cult leaders, etc.  But that's like saying "Well, people have been killed by cars, so we'll have to make cars illegal."  The fact is, the law is a relic from a time when people didn't have the cujones to stand up to governments and say, "Hey, I'm my own boss, I'll
make my own decisions."

"It matters not how straight the gate/ how charged with punishment the scroll/ I am the master of my fate/ I am the captain of my soul."
 -William Ernest Henley, "Invictus"


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bort
bort


Honorable
Supreme Hero
Discarded foreskin of morality
posted October 23, 2002 08:01 PM

Quote:

Right now, my biggest beef is the criminal code.  It's chock full of stupid laws.  For example: For some odd reason, polygamy (being married to multiple partners) is illegal in most western countries.



Lemme guess... Utah?

Nothing prevents you from getting it on with as many chicks as you want to, you just don't get legal recognition, with all that implies for more than one partnership.  

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privatehudson
privatehudson


Responsible
Legendary Hero
The Ultimate Badass
posted October 23, 2002 08:45 PM

Dargon - I geuss that only suprises you because you and many religous people may have an idea of an aethiest as someone who simply denies the concept of god. I don't, I simplt deny that I have experienced god, there's a difference. I'm sure someone will say that's some other form of non-religion and not aeithism at all, but there you go I geuss. I also have only reached that conclusion relatively recently, to be honest I never thought much about religion until recently. When I was young I said I believed in god to fit in, then when I got older I simply realised I had no reason to believe in god at all and simply said he cannot exist. Now having thought about it I have reached that conclusion I stated. I don't claim it's THE TRUTH, but it works for me. On the Devil thing - well for me I mentioned the sort of moral code thing. If this seems incorrect then that experience is false.

Bort - Tut tut, from you I expected better! everyone knows the biggest problem with bygamy is simply......... more than one mother in law





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Lews_Therin
Lews_Therin


Promising
Famous Hero
posted October 24, 2002 02:55 AM
Edited By: Lews_Therin on 24 Oct 2002

Hello Romana,
Quote:
lews Please tell me where it's "obvious" that afterlife is wishfull thinking? Did you by any chance come back from the dead and have the ultimate proof?
Do you have ultimate proof for everything thatīs obvious?

Okay, to answer your question: First of all, our perception, our emotions, our thinking, they are all dependant on our brain. When our brain is dead, itīs the logical conclusion that we canīt perceive, think or feel anymore, how would we, without the brain?

Second, we humans have a strong tendency to believe true what we want to be true. Self-preservation is the strongest motivation that we have (correct me if Iīm wrong here, Bort). Itīs perfectly logical that we convert our wish to live on after our deaths into a belief.

Now on the other hand, is there any logic that favours a "theory" of an afterlife? Anything except for the fact that we want such an afterlife more than anything else?

Iīd also like to add a thought - what would be so bad about nonexistence? As Iīve said before, there was an eternity before we were born in which we did not exist, and it did not bother us one bit. The same will be true after weīre dead.
Quote:
There are many mysterious things in the world and many things can't be explained with science.
Science is just a method of getting nearer to the truth by falsification, I donīt think that the human brain is developed anywhere near enough to explain everything. For that reason people tend to project their wishes into whatīs unexplained/unexplainable. How else do you conclude from "many mysterious things in the world" to the existence of an afterlife?

Quote:
well if there was a reason it wouldn't be called belief now would it.
Hmm, this may be true for unreasonable and irrational beliefs. But I think that most of what we believe is based on or at least connected with logic and reasoning.


Hello Nidhgrin,
Quote:
For people who believe in an afterlife, that afterlife truly exists.
Okay, but couldnīt this be said about any kind of strong belief?

Quote:
But are the religions themselves so very wrong? I think it are the corrupted religious institutions that grow around religions that are to blame.
I couldnīt disagree more here. Christianity is based on a religious book that systematically instills the feelings of guilt (we are all sinners from birth) and fear (behave like we want or you are tortured for eternity). Like other ideologies (fascism, communism), its fatal consequences are a direct results of its teachings.
Quote:
A book or an idea can seldomly be wrong, the interpretation, and actions resulting from that interpretation can be terribly wrong.
Would you say the same thing about Hitlerīs "Mein Kampf"? Canīt an almighty god express itself better than in a way that is "misinterpreted" for almost 2000 years of murder and terror?
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Lews_Therin
Lews_Therin


Promising
Famous Hero
posted October 24, 2002 03:12 AM

Hello Dargon,

first of all, as I told you before, the challenge does not work because English is not my first language. I can recommend you a book of my choosing if you learn German well enough to read it .

And the silent "agreement", well, we ended our discussion in the Iraq thread, but I donīt think this means that we have to ignore each others to the end of time.

And when you quote your pastorīs saying that he does not dare to doubt, to think for himself, because he is scared of hell, thereīs no way of me keeping my mouth shut . I just canīt understand how you find anything positive in such a message.
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bort
bort


Honorable
Supreme Hero
Discarded foreskin of morality
posted October 24, 2002 04:42 AM

Quote:
Self-preservation is the strongest motivation that we have (correct me if Iīm wrong here, Bort).



I don't know if I'm qualified to answer this.  Seems like a reasonable assertion.  Some argue that preservation of offspring is the strongest motivation, but I've seen what some parents are like.

Personally, my strongest motivation is the accumulation of massive quantities of delicious flan, but that's just me.

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Snogard
Snogard


Known Hero
customised
posted October 24, 2002 09:35 AM

Nidhgrin:

Quote:
Personally I believe in a force that connects everything in nature. The similarities between life forms, symmetry in nature, the beauty and uniqueness of every plant and animal on this planet, feelings like compassion, human reasoning, the communication between beings of different species. It's a miracle, no less. It just asks for a very deep and warm respect. I prefer not to call it god, if you do then I have no problem admitting that you could be true. That... is what 'god' is to me.


Do you know anything about Taoism?  The philosophy is very similar to this and maybe you'll like to learn more about it - that is, if you not already had.

Quote:
This is only the rational conclusion, then there remain the moral problems that arise when you eat meat.


You mention a couple of things about morality.  I am not sure how morality should be defined and thus not sure if "absolute" morals do even exist.  Tell me, how do you define morality?  

As for the human-is-"initially"-meat-eater-or-not part, I suppose the Theory of Evolution can explain it rather well.

As with respect to "good and evil", don't you think neither can exists without the other?  Good creates Evil and vice versa; without one, the other would be meaningless.  Now, if we are to think "cyclically", would not both Good and Evil be eliminated?  Lao Zhi said, "ultimately, there is nothing", and Bhudda said, "everything is empty"; what do you think?

Lews_Therin:

Quote:
I couldnīt disagree more here. Christianity is based on a religious book that systematically instills the feelings of guilt (we are all sinners from birth) and fear (behave like we want or you are tortured for eternity). Like other ideologies (fascism, communism), its fatal consequences are a direct results of its teachings.


And hence, the greatest "Evil" lies in interpretation - that's what you are trying to say, right?  I can't see how a book or even an idea be Evil (to us) if we stopped interpreting it!  If somebody "evilly" came up with and idea and another person interprets it "goodly", is that idea "Good" or "Evil"?  ... And that brings us back to the question of the existence (or definition) of "absolute" (truth?).

Quote:
What reason does the universe have to provide us a heavenlike afterlife? We havenīt existed billions of billions of years before our births, why should this be different after our deaths? Itīs quite obvious that afterlife is just wishful thinking.


You are probably right.  There is no reason for an afterlife and it is just wishful thinking; but what is not?  Anyway, since "the end" is going to be the same, it shouldn't be too bad an idea to have a little wishful thinking, is it?

Bort :

Quote:
Personally, my strongest motivation is the accumulation of massive quantities of delicious flan, but that's just me.


Now, that's what I call motivation.

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bizud
bizud


Known Hero
Mighty Donkey
posted October 24, 2002 09:47 AM

It's fairly obvious that "Heaven," in the traditional christian sense (angels, harps, clouds, etc.) is just another method of ensuring loyalty.  I mean, if it's fanatic loyalty you're after, what better way is there to achieve this then by promising the ultimate reward - eternal happiness?

I mean, what kind of schmuck is gonna pass that one up?

The answer is, of course, someone educated enough to know that it's a hoax.

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Romana
Romana


Responsible
Supreme Hero
Thx :D
posted October 24, 2002 12:37 PM
Edited By: Romana on 24 Oct 2002

what about all those people who had NDE? (near death experience)
And it i also known to science that after the brain is dead there shouldn't be a vision. And still the people who come back have these NDE.
And surprise surprise they almost all see the same thing..now how would you go about explaining that?

I have a rela life example for that.
There was this man and he died on coming into the hospital..and one of the nurses took out his fake teeth..But after reanimating the man came to life again and when he woke up he could point out th nurse who took his teeth and said he saw her take them..
How could he have seen that when he was braindead?
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bizud
bizud


Known Hero
Mighty Donkey
posted October 24, 2002 01:40 PM

Well, first of all, I'm pretty sure I already stated that I DO believe in a soul.

Second, as for seeing pleasant things during near death experiences, it has been theorized that it's just a dream, as "brain death" doesn't always mean ZERO brain activity, at least not right away.  There's always some residual neural activity, an EEG isn't perfect.

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privatehudson
privatehudson


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Legendary Hero
The Ultimate Badass
posted October 24, 2002 02:30 PM

Romana - Hmmmmmm interesting, before the last point I would have said that traditional images such as seeing a bright light etc are simply what the brain imagines or expects to see when it dies. The last point is interesting as short of geussing the man would either have had to have opened his eyes (not likely, someone would have noticed) or been outside of his body. Having the brain working does not indicate an ability to see things after all.
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Wolfman
Wolfman


Responsible
Supreme Hero
Insomniac
posted October 24, 2002 03:01 PM

I saw on some show that someone (in a near death experiance)went tward the light and he ended up in "hell".  So if you go the other direction...

A person wanders in the other direction and sees bright lights like in Vegas...

God: Congraulations! You were smart enough not to listen to people on Earth!

Dead Person: Is this Heaven?

God: Yes it is and you get right now to ask for whatever you want.

DP: I want the Oscar Meyer Wienermobile...no, two of them...and they can go through trees and buildings and such!

God: OK, there it is behind curtain #1
---------Applause---Applause---Applause--------------
DP:*Gets in one of them andturns the key*  Let me try this out! *drives into a nearby building and is pinned between the car and the building* I'm stuck!

God: I never said it could go through you or you through a building.

 

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Romana
Romana


Responsible
Supreme Hero
Thx :D
posted October 24, 2002 11:27 PM

anyone interested in afterlife?
Here's a link

http://mikepettigrew.com/afterlife/index.html


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Lews_Therin
Lews_Therin


Promising
Famous Hero
posted October 25, 2002 12:33 AM
Edited By: Lews_Therin on 24 Oct 2002

Romana,

you are right that so-called NDEs are an argument that supports your world view. But I think itīs highly unlikely that they are produced by anything but our (still living) brain. "Seeing a bright light", "the feeling of warmth" - if this NDE experience were completely disconnected from our bodies, why is it so similar to bodily perception? I think that a natural explanation (i.e. endorphines) is much more likely.


Snogard

Quote:
And hence, the greatest "Evil" lies in interpretation - that's what you are trying to say, right?
No, what Iīm saying is in fact: Interpretation is a weapon of ideologies to make themselves immune to critic.

Quote:
I can't see how a book or even an idea be Evil (to us) if we stopped interpreting it!
Sorry, but IMO this is relativistic nonsense. Could you please give me a positive interpretation of Hitlerīs "Mein Kampf"? Whatīs the positive interpretation of torture? Genocide, anyone?

Quote:
If somebody "evilly" came up with and idea and another person interprets it "goodly", is that idea "Good" or "Evil"?
Good and evil are fantasy.

Quote:
You are probably right. There is no reason for an afterlife and it is just wishful thinking; but what is not?
Relativism again. What is not? Of course the non-belief of an afterlife is not!
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IYY
IYY


Responsible
Supreme Hero
REDACTED
posted October 25, 2002 01:58 AM

Very interesting website, Romana, I don't know if it is true (and I'm sure that much of it is not) but it does fit quite well in my belief system. I think that it's better to believe in afterlive than not to, because it can help you in life. If you have nothing to believe in, how can you live?

I don't know about this whole communication with the dead thing on the website, kinda sci-fi and scary, but why not? could be true.

There might be a scientific explanation for this, maybe the soul is in fact some sort of particle that has not been discovered yet... Or pure energy... Who knows?

All I know is that the more hope the better.
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Romana
Romana


Responsible
Supreme Hero
Thx :D
posted October 25, 2002 12:38 PM
Edited By: Romana on 25 Oct 2002

Well these are REAL studies ..not fiction
(on the link I gave I mean)

So Lews..So many intelligent people are studying afterlife. Are u saying they are all wrong?
That sound kinda arrogant to me.
Just look it up on the interenet there are so many official studies on the subject.

I'm not trying to change your beliefs but I'm trying to show you there's also something else in life and it's not "quite obvious" afterlife is wishfull thinking.

on racism

I think it is caused by fear of the unknown.
And also the inability to see life through another persons eyes.
I often think that people don't see other people as being a human being too with feelings and all. In that way we are all a little egoistic. We first see to our own needs and try to reach OUR goals instead of thinking of the concequences to others.
I don't think this attitude will change anytime soon.
As for the fear..i think there nothing bad with having fears or even thoughts that have a "racist" touch to it. The "bad" comes in the picture when you act upon it.
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Lews_Therin
Lews_Therin


Promising
Famous Hero
posted October 26, 2002 04:01 AM

Quote:
So Lews..So many intelligent people are studying afterlife. Are u saying they are all wrong?
That sound kinda arrogant to me.
Just look it up on the interenet there are so many official studies on the subject.


Eeek, Romana, please not the "so many intelligent people"-argument again . If you are impressed by "many intelligent people sharing an opinion", you can be easily convinced of 1000 reasonable and absurd things, and also of exactly the opposites of those 1000. There are probably more websites of people who believe that aliens with UFOs have visited them, so that must be true, too?

But if you read my above post again, youīll find that I respected your argument, and mentioned a few reasons why I find a transcendental cause of NDEs unlikely. I donīt know enough about NDEs yet to say much more about that subject at the moment, maybe Iīll read a bit (from both pro- and contra-perspectives!) next week. No, I donīt think thatīs arrogant.


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