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| Thread: No random map generator! |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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AzureDragonTM
Known Hero
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posted January 18, 2003 04:20 AM |
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Jinxer, the difference between an archer and a barbarian should be the melle not the magic ressistance (it's logic cause this is why they protect the archers with the infantry). This is first thing.
Second thing is : u never play with one hypnotizing mage, u go with 2 of them, and u never go hypnotizing level 4 creatures (sorry to tell u but u play like a newbie cause u didn't look for the speed of the creatures and u hypnotized a waiting creature  - talking about heroes experience ) u hypnotize the heroes (and after that u take level 4 creatures ) - and with no magic ressistance and 2 hypnotizing mages u will be just buried my friend.
I hope u understand now that's so important to have magic ressistance on heroes. If u want to make the difference between archers and barbarians just disable the melee skill for the archers.
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Evil Ghost Pirate LeChuck
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Jinxer
Legendary Hero
*****
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posted January 18, 2003 06:37 AM |
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hmm I see your point... But if I removed Mellee wouldnt there be the same complaints that heres would die way to easy??
I just HATE when people run around the board and come and attack you with ONLY a hero and about 15 immortality potions. With Magic resistance on a hero you have to run over to the hero and beat up on him and at level 25 they take so little damage they just use immortality potion and keep going. Atleast with magic available you can bring a lone hero down.. I figured no magic resistance would force players to run the map with more armies.
I would like to hear some feed back on the NO mellee option. If people think it would balance this issue out more I could try it for the 1.2 update verison of my map.
Jinxer
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AzureDragonTM
Known Hero
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posted January 18, 2003 06:53 AM |
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If u got barbarian u can still try to hit and run your opponent with your hero on Genesis, right ?
But if u take an archer without melee u can just go to him with a level 4 creature and he will be useless cause without melee he will do no damage to your creature.
So no more hit and run.
On the other hand why people should complain that without melee they would die easy ? Without combat u die easy . U need melee just to make damage no to take less damage.
So tell me know : isn't better to leave ressistance there and just remove melee ?
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Evil Ghost Pirate LeChuck
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vesuvius
Hero of Order
Honor Above all Else
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posted January 18, 2003 06:55 AM |
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Im falling behind on Homm4 Experience but...
What if immortality potions were simply removed from maps? Is it possible? That way there would be no debate on such issues.
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salpinx
Hired Hero
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posted January 18, 2003 07:56 AM |
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Uhm, the no melee idea has merit. Early game turbo-ing of the barb is standard strategy now. I've had some success against cocky players (attack me with only might hero and nothing else) who run this strat by using dispel magic, an offense hero and loads of creatures. However, a smart player brings along other heroes and creatures and you're sunk without you're own "mighty-might" hero.
No melee would make it tough on the barb town but who cares at this point. They can always run with two archers and some creatures -- pretty fast and fun. At least they won't be running the table with one loan archer and 20 potions.
Some other ideas: (3DO) make it so monsters don't go into one stack when a single stack army shows up. (map makers) Conversely, put in custom monster stacks which include heroes and multiple lvl 4 stacks. Do anything you can to make creatures and combinations of heroes an important strategy on your maps.
I'm really liking the no melee idea as I think about it....
Quote:
If u got barbarian u can still try to hit and run your opponent with your hero on Genesis, right ?
But if u take an archer without melee u can just go to him with a level 4 creature and he will be useless cause without melee he will do no damage to your creature.
So no more hit and run.
On the other hand why people should complain that without melee they would die easy ? Without combat u die easy . U need melee just to make damage no to take less damage.
So tell me know : isn't better to leave ressistance there and just remove melee ?
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Jinxer
Legendary Hero
*****
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posted January 20, 2003 05:34 PM |
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Okay there has been suggestions of removing Mellee from my map and re-instating Magic Resistance. I know there is a spot to take a certain skill out. However, a Barbarian Starts with Mellee so there for level ups are still offered to them. Is there anyway of making it so Barbs also cannot get the mellee skill? Or do I just have to eliminate Might town all together?
Jinxer
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japjer
Adventuring Hero
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posted January 20, 2003 06:21 PM |
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i like the idea of removing immortality potions, but just in town. a limited access to potions would be good. you'd have to fight dozens of lvl 2's for 1 or 2 potions, and maybe a blacksmith becoming available later. that way, the hero is forced to go for tactics/creatures, not just barbs. Also not allowing GM combat or not alot of emeralds woudl work. defense 60 is good but beatable (even with 20 immortality potions), it's the +20 artifact and 5 crystals that make a hero unbeatable.
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insatiable
Supreme Hero
Ultimate N00bidity
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posted January 20, 2003 08:03 PM |
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immortalities?
..inventing problems again?
out of personal expirience,immo's judge game at 10% of games,max...and,1k per piece?.be my guest,buy 36 of them.
+plus+,no immo disadvantage brings the handicap to magic heroes NOT might ones..
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dEth8
Promising
Known Hero
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posted January 20, 2003 09:53 PM |
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spades and ideas??
Premise: Jinxer wants to make a map that has no necros or barbs is really the deep set goal in mind. Hence, make new tactics to come into play for the map.
Solution: select out all the barbs if you have a problem with them and the goal is to make the game barbless. That really seems to be the end goal in the discussion just recently.
Seems pretty simple: You weaken the barbs so they suck on the map.......nobody will use them and by default will find the next most powerful tool to favor. Therefore, just save time and debate and delete all the barb heroes. *Poof, now the map can be played without them and the Necros as intended.
Another thought which I have not tried (hope this is possible), make it so that if random town A is selected it automatically makes both side play the same starting town. Then the balance that seems inately desired here is going to be in play and yet there is the randomness of castle choosing by the game still.....unless players manually choose their starting town. Just neither side is at a disadvantage because they don't have some certain powerful element. This idea keeps the game from needing to delete any type of characters.
Again if the desired outcome is a game with limited (fundamentally none in reality) characters of a certain type then just delete them.
Brainfart...nother idea. Make no heroes available at all on the map accept a starting line up chosen by the map creator for each side. Now, it's all even steven. This is a monster players joy map....titled...."Heroe-less."
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AzureDragonTM
Known Hero
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posted January 21, 2003 02:22 AM |
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Let me tell u one thing...Hit'n'run tactic is useless on big maps where u can hire and train a good tactician and where u got access to cancellation or dispel. That's why I'm telling u to leave all skills there, even put a tavern on the map. If it is a big map, where u can train 3-4 heroes up to level 13-14 a barbarian hit and run is useless.
Cause he will go down in one round. With 6 blackies (or other level 4 creatures) and a gm on line tactician, cancellation or dispel in group u won't survive one round. So where is the hit in run ????
So stop worring about barbarians hit and run with 25 potions. And keep making nice big maps, with taverns, with power-up and majors and stop having problems about hit'n'runs.
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Evil Ghost Pirate LeChuck
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Jinxer
Legendary Hero
*****
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posted January 21, 2003 03:26 AM |
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First of all Azure you need to read the posts slowly and carefully before replying. Noone said anything about Barb hit and run problem. If you read back in the post I made reference to a Heroes 3 problem with H&R. Then I made reference that Barb run the map alone with immortality potions clearing anything and everything early and fast! Kinda like having 10 Vampires ( Which is why Necro is banned)
There is NO reason to have Taverns on ANY map. Each town have certain heroes in there town and some not for a reason!!! Why not give every town the hypnotise spell...or give every town Black Dragons...etc. The available heroes in each town is one way that the towns are unique and balnced.
The only reason to add taverns to every map is for the players that want and desire to buy 3+ Barbs and rush the map. It is for that reason that I think I agree with 3do that in Heroes 5 the heroes gotta come back out. Unless they find a way to tone there strength down alot.
Jinxer
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AzureDragonTM
Known Hero
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posted January 21, 2003 04:33 AM |
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I think the tavern on a map is excellent to make N combinations of heroes (n > 1000000). I never use the tavern to get 3 barbs cause my experience told me that 1 barbarian with 2 casters and one tactician is ass kicking.
But when u got a tavern u have 2 more advantages : 1. U can have three heroes from week 1 ; 2. U can get a lord for every castle in week 2.
And one more thing...i don't undestand why the tavern is a problem when both of players have it ?
And u were right cause i need to read posts slower and carefull (u got me here ).
And hope 3do will leave the heroes on the battlefield... I mean they need a vacation or what ?
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Evil Ghost Pirate LeChuck
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dEth8
Promising
Known Hero
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posted January 21, 2003 04:46 AM |
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Well, according to your thinking Jinxer, you should be listenning to those like Azure with more experience then yourself. He has corrected you above and now he is giving guidance that the game doesn't need to be limited in manners you have suggested. I cannot help, but think he has good points there, though I had some similar thoughts myself which you invalidated since "I don't play" according to your knowledge.
I must state here at the boards too that, though someone might be a noob it has no bearing on whether their points made are valid or not. If they are invalid then it is easy enough to show, without resorting to saying they should not be speaking because of lack of "experience," as you did with my thoughts.
Hopefully progress is occuring.
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Jinxer
Legendary Hero
*****
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posted January 21, 2003 06:00 AM |
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Well I was listening to Azures ideas about taking out Melee and I believe I even said that. I think it is great idea to take out Melee. Then I made a post asking for further advice about how to remove all melee from the map.....
So not sure where your coming from there. All I got from your post Deth was sarcasim. If I misunderstood your previous posts intention then I aplogize Deth. I took your post as sarcasim and didnt think you were legitamately trying to offer ideas.
So...... Back on topic now that Jinxer has taking all his frustrations out on poor Deth
About Melee.... I dont want to remove all Barbarians, just take the Melee skill out. Or is there anyway to limit the level a skill can level up. i.e. some kinda script that says Expert Melee is as high as you can level up? Any thoughts on this ??
Jinxer
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vesuvius
Hero of Order
Honor Above all Else
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posted January 21, 2003 08:51 AM |
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just an opinion
Im pretty sure jinxer will be a top ToH mapmaker for homm4 in the long run.
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Tc_Fear
Famous Hero
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posted January 21, 2003 02:11 PM |
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Quote:
I think the tavern on a map is excellent to make N combinations of heroes (n > 1000000). I never use the tavern to get 3 barbs cause my experience told me that 1 barbarian with 2 casters and one tactician is ass kicking.
I am sure what u would not play clan match map without tavern.exelent for halberd i know. 
Quote:
Necro town would be perfectly fine to use if there was a way to ensure people would buy venomspawn ( instead of Vampires) and NO GM necromancy.
now this is your sarcastic comment
no GM is more than enough to play against them
belive me I ve played a lot vs death
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salpinx
Hired Hero
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posted January 21, 2003 04:08 PM |
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This is a good discussion Jinxer. I would agree with an earlier post and say that the turbo-barb tactic becomes much less of a problem on larger maps. However, another glaring problem with the game becomes apparent at this point -- only lvl 4 creatures and a few lvl 3 creatures have any importance. And combat based heroes are still the scariest -- Paladin's anyone?
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Jinxer
Legendary Hero
*****
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posted January 21, 2003 04:31 PM |
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Edited By: Jinxer on 21 Jan 2003
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My desire and focus is to make a map where armies become equally as important or more inportant than Heroes. My belief has always been that the Heroes should ONLY act as support for your army not AS your main army.
This became terribly evident in a recent game I played...on a LARGE map.. where my opponent did not even bother building his army. Infact it was late week 4 before he even bothered building level 4's. He was busy building a Level 25 Super Hero, running the map clearing all Dragon cities, and Major artifacts etc. And he was doing this early in game. Mean while I am busting my but fighting for gold building 2 castles fully to Level 4's, only to find out he didnt even build any buildings lol. My point is that you should never beable to clear a map with 1 lone hero. And you should always need to build an army.
So that is my angle here. I think removing Melee will solve that problem and make for a much more realistc game, but there is one looming question... How do you eliminate Melee from Mights starting heroes? Or do I just gotta eliminate Might town all together?
Btw this isnt just about making rules because I lost to a certain tactic... Its about have different maps with different playing styles. If I want to play a game where there is NO armies and ONLY Mega Heroes the I can play SuperHeroes map or virtually 80% of the other TOH maps all the same. Thats why I want to make Genesis a different playing experience.
Jinxer
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AzureDragonTM
Known Hero
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posted January 21, 2003 05:15 PM |
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Jinxer first of all I must say once again that my posts r not made to attack u, contrary I post them here in order to have better maps.
Think about heroes 3. No heroes on the battlefield, but the hero was the most important thing in the game. The hero in heroes 3 was like combo of heroes from homm4. He was a tactician, a mage, a thief, ...and all in one. Now tell me guys, which was more important ? the troops or the hero ?
So why do u want to make troops here more important than the hero ? Let just play starcraft then, or age of empires with millions of troops and no heroes.
As i tried to explain the key to succes is a perfect combination of tactics, magic and might....yeah, Might & Magic... we r not playing heroes of Magic here, or heroes of Might...we r playing heroes of might & magic.
So people, let the heroes be like it is now, cause we have weapons for everything (just put a tavern in every map so we can make any combination possible)
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Evil Ghost Pirate LeChuck
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zud
Promising
Famous Hero
box worshipper
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posted January 21, 2003 05:15 PM |
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Just wondering
If u do accomplish removing melee from barbarians and I get Might town on genesis. How am I supposed to have a chance to win? I understand frustration. but......... Might town with no Melee and no access to magic (sure I might get a tome, but I would have to build a magic user from a barb, or I would have to get one of the random towns and start building my mage week 3 or so (useless)
There is actually some sense to what Deth is saying, I really enjoy genesis map, but everytime I play it, I wish I could get a lord if im nature or chaos (no tavern) also If my opponent gets order or chaos, I know I could easily be toast with no magic resist.
It seems the more you try to balance the game, u just change the "kill" tactic to another,
simplest rule is if someone pulls that solo barb crap. I just dont play em again.
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Winner or Whiner?
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