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Heroes Community > Heroes 7+ Altar of Wishes > Thread: Heroes taken off battlefield in HOMM5?
Thread: Heroes taken off battlefield in HOMM5? This thread is 4 pages long: 1 2 3 4 · «PREV / NEXT»
ThE_HyDrA
ThE_HyDrA


Admirable
Famous Hero
The Leader of all Hydras
posted November 19, 2002 11:59 PM

Sorry I didn't reply earlier

It is obvious whatever decision the NWC staff make, it can't please everybody. It is impossible to please everyone in a situation such as this one. While there may be ideas about implemented heroes, one doesn't know how effective they'll be until the rest of the game's mechanics are known. The idea may seem really good on its own, but in context, it may not live up to the expectations.
At this point in time, it appears NWC are leaving heroes out of combat, that may sound bad for some, but they may implement it in a better way than in previous series. Then again, it might not be implemented well. It is difficult to state an opinion on an idea that isn't fully developed as of yet. It is still good to create ideas, etc. but one can't say "No heroes in combat were bad because they were in other versions". One must realise that Heroes V is likely to be a mixture of II, III and IV, and many of the features that one thinks are the same, really aren't.
Having said that, I will still reply to the discussion at hand.

Svetac:

"I think that with the presence of the heroes on the battlefield, occupying army stacks, they also became creatures in some way."

Hmmm. Well, they took on creature like characteristics to be able to participate fully in battle, but they were very unique. Creatures can't gain levels. They can't use artifacts, they can't cast a wide range of spells, it isn't possible for them to capture a town. But in the same way, creatures have become more like heroes in that they can roam around the adventure map. In my view, these two entities have become more closely intertwined, but still maintain their uniqueness. So, one could say that heroes and creatures now play a larger role.

"5 years period is not that much"

It is in terms of Heroes games. Maybe it isn't the amount of years, as such. It is probably more the changes that have taken place within those years. Many changes were undertaken from Heroes III-IV. It altered the game dramatically. I would see it being quite difficult to base Heroes V on Heroes II or III entirely. There needs to be many aspects of Heroes IV shining through.

"I care about the two equally."

What you say is dependant on the point of view. When Heroes I or II came out, they didn't super graphics for their time, but they were very fun to play regardless. If a game had super graphics, but it wasn't fun to play, the majority of people wouldn't buy it. While graphics are important, I think the gameplay is more so.

Djive:

"An inexperienced leader becomes more experienced if he doesn't die (he is general in the first place). Inexpereinced warrior becomes more experienced when charges into battle. Mages has no need to charge into battle when they can hurl fireballs and lightnings while being protected by their troops."

It was Svetac who wrote that, not me.

Shaowei:

"If you want heroes in combat, you either have to give back the hexagonal grid, or make the batllefield much bigger (which is not good from the gameplay point of view, since is prolongs combat too much)."

I must disagree with you on this point. I believe that the battlefield in Heroes IV is much bigger than the ones in Heroes III, and II and I especially. The hexagonal grids were large - too large for my liking. The battlefield looks better in isometric 2D, and I hope they keep this for heroes V.

I also agree with Djive in the fact that creatures will have to face 4 or 8 ways, which will indeed be difficult to put together.

Whatever the decision, I'm sure that NWC will be able to make it work to the best of its ability, and put it in context well with the game.
____________
"Dragons may breathe fire, but Hydras have many heads." - The Creed of Hydras
"As the Dragon drew its breath, the Hydra pounced, swiftly but powerfully, and the Dragon was defeated.”

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shaowei
shaowei


Adventuring Hero
posted November 20, 2002 08:41 AM

Quote:

Shaowei:
"If you want heroes in combat, you either have to give back the hexagonal grid, or make the batllefield much bigger (which is not good from the gameplay point of view, since is prolongs combat too much)."

I must disagree with you on this point. I believe that the battlefield in Heroes IV is much bigger than the ones in Heroes III, and II and I especially. The hexagonal grids were large - too large for my liking. The battlefield looks better in isometric 2D, and I hope they keep this for heroes V.



I do not advocate a larger battlefield (chess does have a small battlefield and still allows to protect your "hero" quite efficiently). The battles in homm with heroes participating can become like chess (you want at least one of your heroes alive after the battle). Protect your king. So I believe there should be a method to block heroes efficiently.

I have checked hexagons vs. squares. If the heroes choose to stand on the very side of the battlefield, then there is no difference in blocking potential (both can be blocked from melee by 2 two-hexers and 1 other stack). If the hero is standing away from the side of the screen, there is a difference. Assuming the hero takes up one hex/square, with the hexagonal grid you need 2two-hexers and two other stacks, while with the square system you need 2two hexers and 4 other units (since the hero can be attacked from diagonal positions).

So it is not about liking, it is about practical use. With heroes in combat, you need to block that mage hero from attacks. I want to make it easier. Also, the hexagonal grid was large for a purpose - it allowed to make intelligent tactical decisions much more easily (the difference being in counting to ~12 in homm3 compared to maybe 24 in homm4, I am not sure about the exact size of the battlefield).
I think that the side-view battlefield looked good enough and provided a clearer feedback of what is going on, so there is really no need to make it isometric again. Instead, make creatures look better.

............................................................
With multiple heroes on battlefield, there comes another problem, you can't protect them all. But I guess this can be a strategic choice (you want multiple heroes fighting, then take the risk of them dying). However, I strongly believe that a player should have fair chances of keeping at least one hero alive (and the hero should not be required to have grandmaster combat). So if you come to the combat with an archmage, you can block him with your army and cast spells. Or you block the tactician until you've eliminated the major threat (a fast, hard hitting stack).

Heroes off the battlefield does not face such issues at all. So that seems like an easy way out. There are methods to make the opposite work as well. But something has to be undertaken, since the current (homm4) system is a bit flawed.
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Svetac
Svetac


Promising
Known Hero
Saintified Paladin
posted November 20, 2002 10:27 PM

Quote:

So it is not about liking, it is about practical use. With heroes in combat, you need to block that mage hero from attacks. I want to make it easier. Also, the hexagonal grid was large for a purpose - it allowed to make intelligent tactical decisions much more easily (the difference being in counting to ~12 in homm3 compared to maybe 24 in homm4, I am not sure about the exact size of the battlefield).
I think that the side-view battlefield looked good enough and provided a clearer feedback of what is going on, so there is really no need to make it isometric again. Instead, make creatures look better.
You hit the problem in it's core here. I agree 100% with this.
____________
--- Paladin of the Macedon ---

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Djive
Djive


Honorable
Supreme Hero
Zapper of Toads
posted November 21, 2002 01:48 AM

Off-topic: Bonuses applied

Moderator's Note:
This is one of the best discussions in the Altar for a long time. This is truly one of the topics that deserves the rating 'inspiring'.

On-topic:

Quote:

So it is not about liking, it is about practical use. With heroes in combat, you need to block that mage hero from attacks. I want to make it easier.


Well, put it this way... If you can't protect your Hero(es) then why did you attack to begin with? Also the tactics of losing all but one Hero per battle and then ressurrecting them is a very powerful one (at least for the more difficult ones).

Sure I can agree that it should be more difficult to hit a few selected units, more spells should require line of sight and it should be possible to place the front units tight enough to prevent units to hit the back units.

On the other hand it just isn't reasonable that the Hero is the last unit to be attacked on the battle-field. One common practise was instead to hit the generals and the HQ and that would cause the rest of the troops to flee in disarray.
____________
"A brilliant light can either illuminate or blind. How will you know which until you open your eyes?"

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Svetac
Svetac


Promising
Known Hero
Saintified Paladin
posted November 21, 2002 03:35 AM

Thanks for the bonuses Djive, and now let's contiue the discussion, to prove that those bonuses weren't earned just like that j/k

Quote:
Well, put it this way... If you can't protect your Hero(es) then why did you attack to begin with? Also the tactics of losing all but one Hero per battle and then ressurrecting them is a very powerful one (at least for the more difficult ones).


Personally I don't like this very much, because all that often dieing and ressurecting of the heroes, breaks the illusion that they're powerful heroes.

What I appreciated in previous heroes games, is that they set up original rules when it came to Heroes and their death in battles. The heroes would've survive all but the hardest battles (some of them, because there must be only on winner, right? The only downfall of that system was that defeated heroes could've been recruited later, even by you or anybody else, depending on the luck. H1-3 only lacked the Prison from H4 that is great solution to this problem.

____________
--- Paladin of the Macedon ---

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shaowei
shaowei


Adventuring Hero
posted November 21, 2002 01:48 PM

Off t
Luckily, most of the arguments here are backed by facts. I have gained insight into the pros of having heroes on battlefield as well. It even drove me into trying HOMM4 once again just to test some theories

On t
Djive, I agree with your arguments of war reality (attack the headquarters, kill the generals). It is all very logical.

However, I believe there should be some kind simulation of the "entrenched headquarters". I will repeat myself with the chess example, but maybe some principles can be applied from that game? It is easy for a seasoned chess player to lure out the "king" from the protecting ranks of a newbie player and get a kill. So there would still remain ways to attack the hero first...


So I have this crazy idea that I will shortly present here. Tell me what you think about it.
____________________________________________________________
Tactics in HOMM battles

Give creatures "movement patterns". Make it like simple chess. Some creatures can attack diagonally, some have to charge in straight line (champions), all have to have line of sight to the target. The heroes can move freely, but maybe have less movement points than now...

They could stay with seven stacks, or give the player a possibility to have ~ 10-12. Six rows front, six rows back (with six front rows being low level "suicide stacks" to eat retaliations.

I guess this would require major AI programming/balancing time, which the dev team might not have until HOMM10. However, for multiplayer that would be just perfect (deep tactics). It would add some fantastic tactics; also, imagine all the creature specialties that open up.

The possible flaw that I see: in chess, both armies have the same troops. In homm4 there are 5 castles. The challenge is to make armies unique, and at the same time balanced. I can see methods to do it, but they require time to put down in detail and test of course.
____________________________________________________________
One big question is if, with added tactics, would it still be fun to play I think yes. Too tedious? Too complicated? What do all of you think? Maybe it's possible to simulate something for HOMM3/4 and try it out? Would be a fun conversion Though I have no idea at the moment, how realistic it would be to code. I'm no programmer (although I might start it as a hobby, you never know).


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Djive
Djive


Honorable
Supreme Hero
Zapper of Toads
posted November 21, 2002 07:49 PM

To add something new...

... to the discussion.

I believe that everyone agrees that deep down the problem is that the hero is one single individual and other units can be of any number.

This makes it a bit difficult to balance heroes vs. creatures.

To balance this out and still letting the Hero be on the battlefield it would be desired to have the player suffer some penalties for allowing the hero to die, and perhaps also some penalties if the hero takes a lot of hits.

It would be nice if heroes could bring along something which the hero risked losing during the battle, without the hero dying.

I can see three different items which could be used for this:

- Mounts. A mount has hitpoints and adds to the Heroes speed (in combat and on Map) and perhaps also affecting some other hero attributes. Each hero has 1 mount slot.

- Followers. Followers also have hitpoints and gives the hero some special abilities. (like mana drain, reduces spell cost by 1, gives hero ability to cast a certain spell and so on) Each hero can have 1 follower, and an additional 1 for each 10 levels gained to a maximum of 4.

- War machines. War machines also have hitpoints. They appear on the battlefield and works as an additional unit. Each Hero can have 2 war machines.

The hero could have a relationship to the above three items that works as the martyr spell. That is: any damage dealt to the hero stack is instead applied to the mount, followers or the war machines.

(It could also be stipulated that all damage is applied to one of these and excess damage is lost, meaning that the best you could hope for in one attack is to kill the mount or the  follower or destroy the warmachine.)

The end result would be that heroes become a lot more durable in combat.

Mounts can be purchased in towns and stables.
Followers are recruited in the tavern, and is limited to 1/week and tavern. (Different followers are offered in different towns.)
War machines are bought in town or on the map and could also be limited to 1/week.

____________
"A brilliant light can either illuminate or blind. How will you know which until you open your eyes?"

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shaowei
shaowei


Adventuring Hero
posted November 22, 2002 02:52 PM

As to the new idea by Djive, YES.
Mount = good.

I had "followers" in mind, mine were called bodyguards, but I guess we should not argue about names in the concept stage . Maybe there could be different options for different towns/heroes (zombies for the necromancer, clay golems for the wizard, etc.). A special structure in town could let heroes recruit followers.

Idea of "taking hits" could be extended to armor. 1 attack could break hero armor/shield (the defense artifact). The artifact would be lost. Or maybe it could be broken and repaired. Only after breaking the defense the hero's health would be targeted. The armor would be differentiated as enduring one hit, two hits, three hits (and giving a respectively rising penalty to spellcasting perhaps, so viable for tactics/combat, but a hard choice for mages). Am I going too much into Diablo now or is it still okay?

And make some nice animations of clay golems jumping in front of the wizard to take the hits. The HOMM2 humor style, back to the roots.
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Djive
Djive


Honorable
Supreme Hero
Zapper of Toads
posted November 24, 2002 02:00 PM

Followers could be the result of many things: towns, map locations, quest rewards. They should be fairly limited in number so you can't just buy a new one at lesiure.

You could use broken armour instead. You wouldn't get a limitation in purchases, but it would then work the same way as being able to ressurrect followers and the point with followers was partly to make resurrection impossible. I want it to cost to lose a follower and then not only the movement to the nearest town.

You might get a slight problem with quest atifacts. These are not supposed to get broken.

Breaking/damaging artifacts is otherwise quite similar to using followers and could be used instead. I introduced 'hirelings' in an old topic. The main difference between hirelings and artifacts was then to make them cost money continously, say 500 Gold/week. That idea is still combinable with this new idea of followers.

"And make some nice animations of clay golems jumping in front of the wizard to take the hits. The HOMM2 humor style, back to the roots."

This sounds like a good idea. It should be possible to animate this as a special effect pretty much the same way you would do a spell effect, so the animation work would be much less than making a new creature.
____________
"A brilliant light can either illuminate or blind. How will you know which until you open your eyes?"

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shaowei
shaowei


Adventuring Hero
posted February 04, 2003 10:29 AM

I have seen the light

Time to revive this thread, since I have seen the light and want to share it with you guys.

I take back all I have said about taking heroes off the battlefield. Here is a simple idea given by Unbreakable in the 3DO community forums. I let myself expand upon it and put it nicely in bullet points for your reading pleasure/discussion (hopefully):

1. Multiple heroes should be allowed per army
2. Total limit of heroes should be 8
3. Limit of heroes per party should be equal to number of creature stacks per party.
4. When adventuring, heroes are assigned to a stack of creatures in the army, which is called later here the “guardian stack”.
5. When the combat screen opens, heroes are beside the stack of creatures they are assigned to (graphically).
6. Heroes can be killed only after killing their guardian stack.
7. All heroes have 1 hitpoint, and can be killed by anything after their guardian stack has been killed.
8. The basic action for the hero is "cast spell".
9. Heroes deciding to lean towards magic focus on learning more spells and increasing their power.
10. Combat heroes, on the other hand, focus on learning skills that let them perform more battlefield action for the guardian stack: wait, defend, extra movement, extra attack, etc. There are different skills governing these actions. These action are performed when the hero gets his action turn, governed by the initiative stat of the hero.
11. There remain passive skills such as offense and defense, nobility, mining, logistics, even stealth etc., which heroes transfer solely to their guardian stack. So rogues with grandmaster stealth can walk unnoticed with a stack of mid-high level creatures and still be a threat on the battlefield (stealth skill would let progressingly higher levels of creatures to be hidden).
12. Heroes cannot move without creatures, they have no movement points, hit point, attack damage of their own. They are one with their guardian stack.
13. Heroes have specialties, some general like offense, some specific to a certain creature (like all minotaurs get certain bonuses if chosen as a guardian stack for the hero).
14. Creature stacks all have personal movement points (if they are a guardian stack, their movement point are affected by the leader’s skills like logistics, pathfinding etc., and their movement in battle is also affected correspondingly). The army stops when the creature stack with least movement points exhausts its movement points, just like in HOMM4.

WHY

a) This way, the problem of scaling hero abilities versus growing creature stack sizes is solved.
b) The heroes take active part in battle, and can be killed, so they are very important. However, the role of creatures remains essential, just like in HOMM 1-2-3 games.
c) Solo/multiple hero armies without creatures are not encouraged, so more strategy and resource management.
d) The player can develop more heroes as opposed to one superhero and is encouraged to do so.
e) The skill system retains the variety that is found in HOMM4 due to combat action skills.
f) Multiple heroes per army can be implemented easily, ensuring a nice level of complexity to battle.
g) No more immortality potions!


Tell me what you think
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Grythandril
Grythandril


Famous Hero
who is a Chaotic Wizard
posted February 04, 2003 10:54 AM

Would it not be better to put the heroes at the back on the battlefield but make them only battle other heroes.

I mean the heroes could be position at the back of the army in combat there they can use spells to harm other creatures and wizards etc and cast spells on their own creatures as well.

BUT

No creature is allowed to attack a hero.  Only heroes are allowed to attack heroes.  This way the the creatures can only attack creatures and heroes can either attack enemy creatures or enemy heroes.  

That way no creature (say 15 Genies) can attack a hero.  But creatures with spells can counterattack the wizards spells that have been put on the creatures soley.

This might eliminate the problem between heroes and creatures.

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BeastGrandMa...
BeastGrandMaster


Hired Hero
posted February 04, 2003 11:22 AM

Heroes all the way....

Dear all
       Wow so many differing opinions. Again! NWC will NEVER be able to satisfy all you die hards! Xenophanes description of his first realisation of HOMM5 intentions really hit the nail on the head. Having played (and incorporated the hero in to my style) with the hero on the battle field going back would seem like demotion! Djive also gave really valid and agreeable opinions.

But what are you talking about! You cant get rid of heroes, they have opened up the game! The potential is almost unlimited. Most games will keep you enthralled for as long as there is nothing new to discover but with HOMM4 the heroes do truely become a source of god fearing awe, and never ending desire to gain further outer worldly power and dominion!

I'm sure (I hope!!!) you have all imagined when your hero gets to level 50 odd with about 6 plus grandmaster ships culling 10,000 of creatures in single battles. Its awesome! I can picture my hero unleashing these (they would have to be magic!) arrows which ignite and divide and explode or whatever. How else could 1 being possible slay say 600 bandits in 1 go? To watch in real person it would be astonishing. In melee, (GM combat and melee lots of artifacts) the hero carves up 100's each go (before the enemy even reacts!). Imagine that! A super, ultra skilled goliath dancing through these tightly packed masses slaying dozens each few seconds with dazelling skills and wide sweeps with their legendary swords or weapons.

And you would sacrifice that! I question that.

Do I sound abit sad.... not for the first time, Oh well!

But I am open to any suggestion....

And I will certainly buy the next one (come on, lets not be disloyal now!).

Speak (communicate anyway) soon

BGM
____________
I shall END what my summoned minions begin

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shaowei
shaowei


Adventuring Hero
posted February 04, 2003 11:36 AM

No Grythandil, I believe that my idea is simpler but still provides for complex gameplay. If you follow that, you don't have to worry about balancing the mini-battle between heroes.

However, thanks to your post I saw one flaw in the system I presented, namely bullet nr. 5: the heroes should not graphically move together with the stack, because that would make the stack take up more squares/hexes than usual (tactically, it is better to have a shooter stack take up as little space as possible, and adding a hero is not like adding another army).

So for tactical purposes it would be better if heroes were graphically standing at the side of the battlefield, holding flags with the guardian creature's symbol - so let's say a wolf raider leader will have a wolfraider sign on his flag. That way it is easy to relate heroes to their guardian creatures.

Everything else stays as described.
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Djive
Djive


Honorable
Supreme Hero
Zapper of Toads
posted March 06, 2003 11:53 PM
Edited By: Djive on 7 Mar 2003

I've modified the way I picture the ultimate Hero building in Heroes V a bit. The main points of the current model is as follows:

- Heroes should improve about as much as the creatures in the army.
- The main benefit given by heroes should be given by improving the creatures which the hero leads.
- A lone hero shouldn't be able to deal much damage (regardless if the hero is magic oriented or might oriented.)
- Might heroes should improve combat values of creatures.
- Magic heroes should improve magical abilities of creatures.
- No skill which boosts hero skills to insane levels and makes them a one-man army.
- Heroes should have good survivability if they are in combat. This could be solved by a "martyr stack" but you could also solve it in other ways. Another way which I haven't seen mentioned yet is to give Heroes lives. Perhaps a hero starts with 1 life and gain 1 life per week. Lives could perhaps also be gained through the map. Any one attack can never take more than one life from a hero and if the number of lives ever reaches zero then hero is dead. (But no way of gaining limitless lives, so no spell and no potion which gives a life should exist.)

The below system doesn't really need Heroes to be on the battlefield, since heroes are there to improve creature values (and that will be the main benefit with the heroes), but then again I'd rather have them stay.


Hero/creature stats.

Creatures and Heroes have the following stats (with short descriptions):

Melee Attack: Applied to damage in the H3 way. 2.5% more damage per point.

Ranged Attack: Applied to ranged damage in the H3 way. 2.5% more damage per point.

Defence: Applied to all physical damage in the H3 way. 2.5% less damage per point.

Resistance: Reduces spell damage with 2.5% per point, or gives 2.5% chance per point to resist any spell (hostile and friendly). Only spells cast on the caster are never resisted.

Health: Hitpoints.

Movement: Overland movement and movement on the combat map.

Speed: Determines the order in which creatures get to act in combat.

Sorcery: Every three points increases spell duration with 1 round. For direct damage, summon and illusions each point increases spell effectiveness by 5%. All creatures able to cast spells have a sorcery value. If neither of these are applicable then Sorcery reduces the Spellpoint and Mana cost by 2.5% per point, but never below 1 Spellpoint.
Intelligence: Every point increases the amount of spellpoints which can be used per day for casting spells by 3. Do notice:
- This is an army limit valid per day.
- Every creature type is only counted once (No benefit of splitting stacks).
- You can freely merge/split creatures within an army and it won't affect available spellpoints. (All creatures of a certain type within an army always has the same amount of used and available spellpoints)
- Merging with other armies will always use the highest value for number of used spellpoints for the resulting stack.

I've also assumed a rule stating that all wandering armies must have at least one Hero in them.

The Heroes have additional stats which are applied to the creatures in the army. These attributes work by simply adding the value to all the stacks (heroes and creatures) in the army. In some cases such as for Health, Movement and Intelligence the value indicates a percentage increase of the existing value instead of an added value. If several Heroes have bonuses then only the best bonus is used.

Level-up options are as follows (amended from my How to build a Heroes in heroes 5 thread):
+1 to any Statistics ( which is added to army)
Every fifth level-up or so the Hero could be offered a selection of improvements to Hero personal stats. This bonus will then be +3 to the affected statistics but applies only to the Hero. Most of the stat increases should be the ones that affect the army to prevent heroes that become powerful faster than the creatures.

Hero classes can look like following.

Base= The Hero's own value in combat.
Added to army: The value which is added to each stack in the army (and this includes the own hero and any other heroes in the army.)

Mage.
Attack. Base: 3. Added to army: 0
Ranged Attack. Base: 5 Added to army: 0
Defence. Base: 10+level. Added to army: 0
Resistance. Base: 4 Added to army: 0
Health. Base: 80+10*lvl Added to army: 0 (0%)
Movement. Base: 20 Added to army: 0 (0%)
Speed. Base: 10 Added to army: 0
Sorcery. Base: 4 Added to army: 2
Intelligence. Base:6 Added to army: 1 (10%)
Mana generation: Base: 15 Mana

Rogue.
Attack. Base: 6 Added to army: 2
Ranged Attack. Base: 5 Added to army: 0
Defence. Base: 15+lvl Added to army: 2
Resistance. Base: 8 Added to army: 1
Health. Base: 120+10*lvl Added to army: 0 (0%)
Movement. Base: 24 Added to army: 1 (2.5%)
Speed. Base: 15 Added to army: 1
Sorcery. Base:0 Added to army: 0
Intelligence. Base: 4 Added to army: 0 (0%)
Mana generation: Base: 5 Mana

Noble.
Attack. Base: 4 Added to army: 1
Ranged Attack. Base: 5 Added to army: 0
Defence. Base: 15+lvl Added to army: 1
Resistance. Base: 8 Added to army: 1
Health. Base: 100+10*lvl Added to army:2 (5%)
Movement. Base: 20 Added to army: 2 (5%)
Speed. Base: 10 Added to army: 0
Sorcery. Base: 2 Added to army: 1
Intelligence. Base: 4 Added to army:0 (0%)
Mana generation: Base: 5 Mana

Warrior.
Attack. Base: 7 Added to army: 3
Ranged Attack. Base: 5 Added to army: 0
Defence. Base: 15+lvl Added to army: 3
Resistance. Base: 4 Added to army: 0
Health. Base: 120+10*lvl Added to army: 1 (2.5%)
Movement. Base: 22 Added to army: 0 (0%)
Speed. Base: 12 Added to army: 2
Sorcery. Base: -2 Added to army: 0
Intelligence. Base: 0 Added to army: 0 (0%)
Mana generation: Base: 0 Mana

There will exist several more classes and classes offered will vary between towns, but some of them like Mage and Warrior can be common.

The Adventure Map and artifacts are the means available to be used for giving heroes improvements which doesn't affects their creatures.

Skills and how they affects the stats.
======================================

Currently I'm assuming 10 groups with 3 skills in each. The same advancement restriction apply in all groups as within the Nobility, Estates, Mining group in H4.

Also all Heroes must pick either land based or water based bonuses and that choice affects all the skills in group 2 and 3. All skills are limited to 5 levels.

G1:
Offence: Increases Attack with 4 per level (added to army)
Defence: Increases Defence with 4 per level (added to army)
Archery: Increases Ranged attack with 6 per level (added to army)

G2:
Tactics: Allows player to rearrange troops prior to combat. On the adventure Map it increases the permissible number of stacks in an army with 1 per level. Permissible number of stacks is 6 pe default in an army and at least one of them must be a Hero stack. (The stack bonus applies both on land and water regardless if Hero is water based or land based.)
Leadership/Seamanship: Improves morale in combat by +2 per level.
Luck: Improves Luck in combat by +2 per level.

G3:
Scouting: Increases scouting radius with 1 per level, and gives more information about the map.
Pathfinding: Reduces terrain penalty with 20% per level. For water heroes it allows better interaction with the map: negating embark/disembark penalties, negating whirlpool losses and similar. If different water terrains exists it may reduce movement penalties in turbulent waters.
Logistics/Navigation: Increases Movement for army with with +4 (10%) per level.

G4:
Stealth: As in H4 but allows the hero to travel with 1 stack per level of stealth without negating the stealth benefit. Stealth hero can cooperate to cloak stacks, so two Heroes with basic stealth can give an army with 4 stacks basic stealth (The 2 Heroes + 2 other stacks)
Spying/Thieving: Allows heroes better interaction with the map. Allows them to visit and use structures in enemy towns without taking the town. This includes recruiting creatures, freeing prisoners in the prison and so on. Using the skill implies a risk for detection and a resulting combat.
Reflexes: Adds +1 Speed per level. (Added to army)

G5:
Nobility: As in H4
Estates: As in H4
Mining. As in H4

G6:
Diplomacy: Similar to h4, but is cumulative for all Heroes in an army. Also allows swaying part of armies that are aligned but more powerful than the Heroes army.
Peacekeeper: Adds +4 (10%) Health per level (Added to army).
Magic Resistance: Adds +4 Resistance per level. (Added to army)

G7:
Sorcery: Adds +3 Sorcery per level (Added to army)
Intelligence: Adds 2 to Hero Intelligence level and 10% bonus to spellpoints for creatures in the army (per level of the skill)
Mysticism: Hero generates 5 additional Mana per day per level of the skill.

G8:
Death Magic: Allows casting of level 1 "Evil spells". Adds +2 to Sorcery for "Evil spells" per level (Added to army). Hero learns one Death spell for each level gained of Death Magic.

Demonology: Places demon summoning spells in Hero spellbook. Adds +2 to Intelligence to own hero (regardless of alignment)  and any evil aligned creatures in army.

Necromancy: Allows hero to use necromancy to raise creatures after combat. Change: Necromancy now costs spellpoints to use, and the amount of Mana invested in Necromancy decides how much you get from using it. (Limited by the number of XP in the skilled stack.) The skill is cumulative with the number of heroes in an army. Necromancy also increases the amount of Mana points contributed by the Hero with +2 Mana per level. Better options in what to raise creatures as. One creature being added per level. (Say: Skeletons, Zombies, Wraiths, Ghosts and Mummies.)

G9:
Arcane Magic: Allows casting of level 1 "Neutral spells". Adds +2 to Sorcery for "Neutral spells" per level (Added to army). Hero learns one Neutral spell for each level gained of Arcane Magic.

Scholar: Places Create Illusion spells in Hero spellbook. Adds +2 to Intelligence to own hero (regardless of alignment)  and any neutral aligned creatures in army. In addition this skill allows Heroes to trade spells between their spellbooks.

Summoning: Allows hero to summon creatures of their own alignment / home town each turn. An interface to allow players to customize what is to be summoned and when is added to the game. Summoning also increases the amount of Mana points contributed by the Hero with +2 Mana per level.

G10:
Life Magic: Allows casting of level 1 "Good spells". Adds +2 to Sorcery for "Good spells" per level (Added to army). Hero learns one Life spell for each level gained of Life Magic.

Charm: Allows Heroes to persuade some creatures in opposing armies to join your cause for free. Adds +2 to Intelligence to own hero (regardless of alignment)  and any good aligned creatures in army.

Resurrection: Allows hero to use resurrection to raise creatures after combat. The amount of HP resurrected per spellpoint is increased by 30% for each level of Resurrection. Change: Resurrection now costs spellpoints to use, and the amount of Mana invested in Resurrection decides how much you get from using it. All heroes and Angels can use their spellpoints to resurrect at the end of the combat. Resurrection also increases the amount of Mana points contributed by the Hero with +2 Mana per level.

Spellcasting changes:
Players now have a Mana pool and to cast a spell the following is required:
1. The stack has enough casting points left to cast the spell.
2. The player has enough Mana to cast the spell.

Mana:
Mana is generated by heroes, towns (through Mage Guild) and some powerful spellcasting creatures (but not all spellcasters generate mana; that is mana generation is a special ability just like spellcasting is). Mana can also be collected on the adventure map. Mana is used when any spell is cast and the player should also be somewhat limited in the amount of Mana which can be stored. Perhaps 5x the amount generated daily.

Spellpoints.
Spellpoints limits the amount of spells a stack can cast. The Spellpoints which a creature stack or Hero can use is equal to the creature's Intelligence x 3. It is modified as follows (counting all creatures of that type in an army):
Few: +0%
Several: +10%
Pack: +20%
Lots: +30%
Horde: +40%
Throng: +50%
Swarm: +75%
Zounds: +100%
Legion: +150%

The same percentage bonuses are added to the Mana generation ability of creatures. Notice also that a Hero that adds to an army's Spellpoints will increase both available spellpoints and generated Mana. For Mana generation Heroes have a separate stat for deciding how much Mana is generated. (Creatures could also have a separate stat but I will assume that the value is the same as the Intelligence value, that is a third of the Spellpoint value.)

Example.
A Mage with Intelligence 10, and added to army 3 (30%), and Mana generation 20. Travels with a Horde of Magi (Intelligence 8 and Spell generation special), and a Swarm of Leprechauns (Intelligence 2).

For Hero: Intelligence 10 = 30 spellpoints, to which is added 30%. So hero has 39 casting points, and 20 Mana is generated plus 30% which makes 26 Mana.

For Magi: Intelligence is 8. Horde = +40%. Hero = +30%. Bonuses are both to the base amount so they are added together to 70%. So 3*8*1.7 = 40.8 which is rounded down to 40. Mana generation is 8*1.7 = 13.6 which is rounded down to 13.

For Leprechauns: Intelligence is 2. Swarm = +75% Hero = +30%. So 3*2*2.05 which gives them 12 casting points. The Leprechauns do not generate any mana.

So in total the army has:
39+40+12 = 91 casting points.
26+13+0 = 39 Mana generated per turn.

Spellpoint costs are roughly 5 spellpoints multiplied with the level of the spell.

Example 2. Assume that the same army is acompanied with a Warrior with no magic bonuses whatsoever.

This army has:
0+33+10=43 casting points.
0+11+0=11 Mana generated per turn.

And then I haven't considered the "Sorcery" bonus the magic Heroes will give to the spellcasters. In other words the system promotes to a certain degree to place magic creatures with magic oriented heroes, and ranged creatures with heroes who have good ranged attacks and so on.

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jondifool
jondifool


Promising
Adventuring Hero
extinct but alive!
posted March 07, 2003 02:29 AM

Greetings!
Its so nice and inspirering to read this good discussion there have formed in the past !

Quote:
Time to revive this thread, since I have seen the light and want to share it with you guys.
I take back all I have said about taking heroes off the battlefield. Here is a simple idea given by Unbreakable in the 3DO community forums. I let myself expand upon it and put it nicely in bullet points for your reading pleasure/discussion (hopefully):



So shaowai, you have seen the light!
Its a little strange (belive it or not) but as I was reading this topic, for the first time today, the exsact idea of letting a hero be assigned to a stack was forming in my head, as asolution to keeping heroes in battle! And then I read your reply here!!! Amazing (do you have a link to the original post?)

It actual also amazes me that it does not get more debate! As it is the the best, if not only perspective of balance I have seen (or grasped- I have to be a little humble here aswell to counter my obseesion with this idea ) . I personal feel that this Idea is that strong that it deserves its own thread! (do I miss that one somewhere?)Anyway onto discuss it here, ill just give my own thought on the whole off it!

Heroes to be in battle by being assigned to a creature stack!
How wonderfull simple! Creature/hero balance solved (imho)!
Now the hero have hit points and strength in numbers from the stack (and none by himself! or 1 whatever!)

The problem of the hero dying to easy is gone as the hitpoints of the stack would protect him! If not the army were to weak for the battle anyway! And if the hero is unkillable then its because the assigned stack  is too strong and so its not necaserry a creature/hero balance problem either, as the opposing force simply is not strong enough for the battle.

( grafics gonnna have trouble with the assigning hero solution- I like the banner solution though! I imagine a banner with a symbol -representing the hero like heraldic shields !)

The solution keeps heroes on battlefield! It makes heroes killable (toghetger with the assigned stack ). It makes heros surviability follow creature numbers, meaning it could stay balanced during game, from start to end! And with that hopefully makes spell casting a factor for more than a few rounds in late game! And it frees the heros for different developments paths, As heros now doesn't have to(but properly still could ) focus on defending them self (and their assigned stack.)

It also gives the option to introduce the creature specialist from homm3 again! In some form giving exstra bonus when being assigned to that type of creatures! ( I strongly support the call for getting uniqe heros again!)

An Idea I have is  with a low level/starting hero; it could be that the assigned stack would be able to do an action if hero cast a spell!

If it become like that, this would create a balance in the start, where players on one hand want a big protective stack to be assigned to the hero, and on the other hand want to free creatures from it, to be able to dealing damage if wanting to cast spell!
This would be a factor to balance might and magic heroes aswell! Slow moving Big Hitpoints stacks there often didn't reach combat anyway, would be the perfect hidding place for a spellcaster, where a might hero would properly want to get into the fray a lot faster, with a big stack aswell (if it wasnt for that the hero have to give up the stacks attack if he wanted to cast a spell! At least until he becomes skilled enough to offset such a penality presuming that such a skill exsist! It might not be needed!)
But if needed then later  in game a hero would/could develop there skill there could allow the stack to defend, to move, to use special ability , to hit all while hero is casting spell! Off cause the mellee/might hero would maybe instead develop skills to improve the stacks or armys combat values and options!
(if sisser/rock/paper effect is being used so strong as I exspect, it would be essential for heros to could affect that also, maybe in the form of bonus to the assigned stack).
A whole story( off balance issues) in it self would be what speed the hero should follow (the assigned creatures , hes own, or homm3 like! )

To me it look like this is an option to actual take some of the best thing from Homm3 and Homm4. And This Way the whole creature management stays the most important. But the great tactical issue of having the hero in battle using him, defending him or getting him killed (and lossing his benefits) remains! And hero development finally maybe can be real flexible and different as homm4 didn't manage!

I really hope that this idea inspires people to debate alot! Even more I hope that developers have the resourcess to use it, or come up with something better!

with regards
Jondifool
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tree
tree


Adventuring Hero
posted March 07, 2003 03:32 AM

Actually even if they let the heroes stay as they are, they should varies the stats of heroes...like in 4, wizard have same attack, defense, stuff as general.  The different bonus of heroes like in 3 is good...they should keep that.  Just make it more balanced (do not have someone with specialty of zombie and other have specialty of vampire).  Maybe they can have each town have different bonuses too...like one town gives some wood every week, other town gives a boost of growth of a particular unit (again, need to be sort of balanced, not that one town gives extra 2 dragons per week and another gives 10 gold per week)
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malkia
malkia


Promising
Famous Hero
posted March 07, 2003 07:03 AM

GOOD !! GOOD !!

if that's true...





SEE.... HEROES in battles are good, only if there were no stacks of other creatures (Disciples, Age of Wonders, etc...)

since there is alreay STACK of CREATURES (and I like it - even if it's totally unrealistic - which I don't care) then there should not be a HERO - which will be always not scaled well against > 1000 of any other units



THAT RUINED HEROES IV for me



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admira
admira


Promising
Famous Hero
posted May 10, 2005 10:08 AM

Quote:
When I read the line of text on the Might and Magic Guild a few days ago that said that Heroes would be taken off the battlefield in Heroes V, I must say that quite a few thoughts whirled through my head.

First came disbelief. Then amazement. Then denial. I am sure that many people went through the same thing. However, through it all, I began to ponder the pros and cons of such a change.

Now, I believe that I have the perfect solution to the problem of Heroes in combat vs. no Heroes in combat.

Personally, I like having Heroes on the battlefield in Heroes IV. Heroes I, II, and III were more aptly called "Creatures of Might and Magic." The Heroes just didn't have a big enough role. Sure, Heroes III helped by introducing Hero specialties, but the Heroes were still too intangible.

Some have said that the Heroes in previous Heroes games were too godlike as a result of their staying out of the fray of battle. My solution, however, looks at all of this from a historical point of view.

Great leaders and commanders of military forces, let's face it, never really did or do fight with their troops in combat. They sat a safe distance away, giving the commands for their legions to mobilize. However, there were some figures in history who did lead their troops in to battle and fight with them, such as Richard the Lion Heart, which greatly increased troop morale.

Have you guessed what my solution is already? Heroes should be, as a default, removed from the battlefield, staying safely on their horses to sling the occasional spell. However, the Hero should have the option of charging into the battle to fight as a unit and as they do in Heroes IV, an action that would increase troop morale by a considerable amount. Heroes could then return to the safety of their horse if they so desired, or remain on the battlefield, with the risk of being slain.

For anyone at New World who happens to be reading this, please take this idea into consideration.


mmmm wow a great idea, it is even open up more strategical point there. I will add some:
- In their strategical mode (in horse mode), heroes give their army status bonus, while in combat mode they didn't provide the army with status bonus but they are particpating as uber unit with combat skills or magic. Which can be discussed whether the magic will be available in horse mode or not.
- Heroes type such as tactician grow their bonus status for their creatures better than their status for combat mode, while warrior type hero will grow their atk + def better than their bonus status for their army. The rules should be applied on magic hero.

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Fiend_Master
Fiend_Master


Hired Hero
Master of Hellish Chaos
posted May 12, 2005 02:24 PM

Quote:
Quote:
When I read the line of text on the Might and Magic Guild a few days ago that said that Heroes would be taken off the battlefield in Heroes V, I must say that quite a few thoughts whirled through my head.

First came disbelief. Then amazement. Then denial. I am sure that many people went through the same thing. However, through it all, I began to ponder the pros and cons of such a change.

Now, I believe that I have the perfect solution to the problem of Heroes in combat vs. no Heroes in combat.

Personally, I like having Heroes on the battlefield in Heroes IV. Heroes I, II, and III were more aptly called "Creatures of Might and Magic." The Heroes just didn't have a big enough role. Sure, Heroes III helped by introducing Hero specialties, but the Heroes were still too intangible.

Some have said that the Heroes in previous Heroes games were too godlike as a result of their staying out of the fray of battle. My solution, however, looks at all of this from a historical point of view.

Great leaders and commanders of military forces, let's face it, never really did or do fight with their troops in combat. They sat a safe distance away, giving the commands for their legions to mobilize. However, there were some figures in history who did lead their troops in to battle and fight with them, such as Richard the Lion Heart, which greatly increased troop morale.

Have you guessed what my solution is already? Heroes should be, as a default, removed from the battlefield, staying safely on their horses to sling the occasional spell. However, the Hero should have the option of charging into the battle to fight as a unit and as they do in Heroes IV, an action that would increase troop morale by a considerable amount. Heroes could then return to the safety of their horse if they so desired, or remain on the battlefield, with the risk of being slain.

For anyone at New World who happens to be reading this, please take this idea into consideration.


mmmm wow a great idea, it is even open up more strategical point there. I will add some:
- In their strategical mode (in horse mode), heroes give their army status bonus, while in combat mode they didn't provide the army with status bonus but they are particpating as uber unit with combat skills or magic. Which can be discussed whether the magic will be available in horse mode or not.
- Heroes type such as tactician grow their bonus status for their creatures better than their status for combat mode, while warrior type hero will grow their atk + def better than their bonus status for their army. The rules should be applied on magic hero.


Maybe, this way, there would be three or four types of heroes except two. "Heroes of Mind, Might, & Magic"
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Death is my servant,
it paces with haste,
it cares not for your age,
for your sex, for your race.

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Blitzkrieg_Boy
Blitzkrieg_Boy


Adventuring Hero
The Lone Keeper
posted December 07, 2005 03:38 AM

I think Heroes V hero should be a combination between Heroes III and Frozen Throne.

They should look like individuals and not some wierdos dressed like the same mob.
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