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Heroes Community > Heroes 7+ Altar of Wishes > Thread: HOMM V: To be 3D or not to be 3D that's the question!
Thread: HOMM V: To be 3D or not to be 3D that's the question! This thread is 3 pages long: 1 2 3 · «PREV
JJ_The_Ripper
JJ_The_Ripper


Adventuring Hero
addicted HOMM player
posted December 08, 2004 09:48 AM
Edited By: JJ_The_Ripper on 8 Dec 2004

I think that, if the development is already started (as Ubisoft said), this decison is already made. The official word from Ubisoft is that the game will be in 3D.
I just hope that they don't focus too much in the 3D eye candy looking and forget the gameplay and user interface part.

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B0rsuk
B0rsuk


Promising
Famous Hero
DooM prophet
posted December 09, 2004 07:23 PM

Quote:
Quote:
3D graphics are more tircky to create than 2D Graphics

Are you in HOMM V development team???
If not, then we have nothing to worry about the behind the sence, aren't we? After all, we are customers and that's means we pay for what we want and 3DO has to develiver it!


No, we have serious reasons to worry. If you observe 3D games and have some basic modelling knowledge, you'll know.  Making good-looking and well-animated model takes a LOT of effort and aesthetic sense. Result - you rarely get many different models in single 3D game. Typically developers make as few models passable/possible, and try to compensate by reskinning. And that's why there aren't many unique-looking characters in a single game.
Punchline: This is not what we want in serries known for myriads of unique creatures.

Another good reason: 2D graphics are foolproof. On the other hand, usenet, forums, mailing lists are full of mad people who have supposedly "good enough" hardware. There are always technical problems.

Sure, there is progress. But I don't think 3D graphics is ready for Homm. Just look at "forest" in Warcraft3. I can count trees on fingers of one hand. Not to mention most of them looks the same. There are many, many things 3D still can't do realistically.

Pure Chaos and Pimp:

Nonsense
Warcraft3 was, and is, pretty average in terms of graphics. Nothing special, really. And most importantly, it has low requirements for modern 3D game. Compare it to C&C:Generals - reqs are lower not just because the graphics is generally worse (unless someone likes the style; I'll never understand such people), but you can't zoom out too far in war3 They did it on purpose - low amount of objects on the screen. Just like Starcraft. Blizzard always cared for low-end computers . Do you think SC would be anywhere as popular if it was made using, say, ID Software approach (make a game for hardware which doesn't exist yet... Even Doom was made this way. Recommended cpu was 486, which runs Doom rather poor). No, important part of SC popularity is the fact that it runs on even archaic hardware. People didn't care to upgrade their machines.
World of Warcraft - I'd say it's even slightly below average graphically when comparing to other games, but requirements are LOW.

Very low hardware requirements always was strong point of Homm serries. Homm4 broke this rule, and result is arguable at best. It's one of few games that makes my eyes hurt; adventure map is very unreadable.

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Polaris
Polaris


Promising
Known Hero
posted December 09, 2004 08:42 PM

Quote:
No, we have serious reasons to worry. If you observe 3D games and have some basic modelling knowledge, you'll know.  Making good-looking and well-animated model takes a LOT of effort and aesthetic sense. Result - you rarely get many different models in single 3D game. Typically developers make as few models passable/possible, and try to compensate by reskinning. And that's why there aren't many unique-looking characters in a single game.
Punchline: This is not what we want in serries known for myriads of unique creatures.


What's your point? I could say the same thing about palette swapping with sprites. That doesn't make 3D or 2D any better or worse.

Quote:
Another good reason: 2D graphics are foolproof. On the other hand, usenet, forums, mailing lists are full of mad people who have supposedly "good enough" hardware. There are always technical problems.


I really don't think the developers care. All the blockbuster titles today are 3D, so they are obviously not hurting for sales by having 3D graphics. If they want to cater to a larger audience, they will *avoid* 2D, not embrace it.

Quote:
Sure, there is progress. But I don't think 3D graphics is ready for Homm. Just look at "forest" in Warcraft3. I can count trees on fingers of one hand. Not to mention most of them looks the same. There are many, many things 3D still can't do realistically.


Are you suggesting HOMM should have realistic graphics, since your complaint is that 3D can't do some things (such as forests) realistically?

Quote:
Pure Chaos and Pimp:

Nonsense
Warcraft3 was, and is, pretty average in terms of graphics. Nothing special, really. And most importantly, it has low requirements for modern 3D game. Compare it to C&C:Generals - reqs are lower not just because the graphics is generally worse (unless someone likes the style; I'll never understand such people), but you can't zoom out too far in war3 They did it on purpose - low amount of objects on the screen. Just like Starcraft. Blizzard always cared for low-end computers . Do you think SC would be anywhere as popular if it was made using, say, ID Software approach (make a game for hardware which doesn't exist yet... Even Doom was made this way. Recommended cpu was 486, which runs Doom rather poor). No, important part of SC popularity is the fact that it runs on even archaic hardware. People didn't care to upgrade their machines.
World of Warcraft - I'd say it's even slightly below average graphically when comparing to other games, but requirements are LOW.


I don't understand what you're trying to say. Are you suggesting they go for low-end 3D like Blizzard? If that's the case, then I think I can agree with you. But at the same time you mention Doom which was one of the most succesful PC games ever and had medium-high reqs, so I don't get what you're trying to say (btw, Doom did run very well on a 486, it's just that a 486 was relatively high end in 1993).

Quote:
Very low hardware requirements always was strong point of Homm serries. Homm4 broke this rule, and result is arguable at best. It's one of few games that makes my eyes hurt; adventure map is very unreadable.


You're going to try and tell me that H1-3 were good because they had low reqs and H4 was bad because it had high reqs? Seriously now....

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Asmodean
Asmodean


Responsible
Supreme Hero
Heroine at the weekend.
posted December 10, 2004 04:43 AM

Until we see the first real screenshots all this is hot air.
If the screenshos are bad, I propose that you write to your local government authority and have them start an international petition to have Ubisoft change their graphic style.
Who knows, it might make a difference.
____________

To err is human, to arr is pirate.

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Lazarus
Lazarus

Tavern Dweller
posted December 10, 2004 04:48 PM
Edited By: Lazarus on 10 Dec 2004

I'm hoping for a 3D adventure map, AND battlefield with rotating camera. I'd also be very happy if there are geographical features on the battle map such as hills and cliffs. It would certainly add a lot to the tactics than currently which is a chessboard with some squares you cannot use (Bushes, trees etc). My reason for this is that the better the graphics are the more of my friends I can seduce into the realm of HoMM.
____________
Cheers,

Laz

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B0rsuk
B0rsuk


Promising
Famous Hero
DooM prophet
posted December 11, 2004 12:17 AM

Quote:

What's your point? I could say the same thing about palette swapping with sprites. That doesn't make 3D or 2D any better or worse.


The "3D concept" itself isn't 100% bad. It just has disadventages. Even indirect like promoting lazyness among developers.  Development effort for creating original stuff is much lower for 2D graphics. I mean, it's much easier to create dozens of unique, nice-looking sprites than dozens of unique, fancy models. It's still technically possible. But most 3D games prove that developers prefer to reuse same models. Or at least temptation is very high.
Another case - try to imagine how hard would be to create H3 Fortress screen in full 3D. Reflections on water, mist, individual trees, leaves, grass et cetera. Experienced 2D artist can make it relatively fast.

Quote:

I really don't think the developers care. All the blockbuster titles today are 3D, so they are obviously not hurting for sales by having 3D graphics. If they want to cater to a larger audience, they will *avoid* 2D, not embrace it.



Have you seen kickass fantasy images made by proffesional artists ? I don't mind having such art (2D!) in a game. Some kind of quasi-medieval map would be very cool for me. Aside from combat, there isn't much homm can gain from 3D graphics. 3D graphics is good in realtime games, and these are the most popular nowadays. Ergo - mostly combat would benefit from 3D in homm, and nowhere as much as realtime games. Homm combat animations are quite static. No matter how hard you try, you can't make it look "massive" or dynamic unless you cut out fundamental  "army stack" concept... or make combat realtime. Believe or not, in homm single figures attack each other one at a time, with often long intervals between as you consider next move. Not exactly what I would call huge potential for 3D graphics. And there are quite amazing particle effects in 2D realtime game Nox. Possible...

Quote:
Sure, there is progress. But I don't think 3D graphics is ready for Homm. Just look at "forest" in Warcraft3. I can count trees on fingers of one hand. Not to mention most of them looks the same. There are many, many things 3D still can't do realistically.


Quote:

Are you suggesting HOMM should have realistic graphics, since your complaint is that 3D can't do some things (such as forests) realistically?


I mean if progression to 3D means that some things are going to look crude, I prefer 2D proven to work well. Especially if done with style. Recently forests are more and more common in 3D games but trees still look pitiful. Earlier 3D games had almost no forests.


Quote:

I don't understand what you're trying to say. Are you suggesting they go for low-end 3D like Blizzard? If that's the case, then I think I can agree with you. But at the same time you mention Doom which was one of the most succesful PC games ever and had medium-high reqs, so I don't get what you're trying to say (btw, Doom did run very well on a 486, it's just that a 486 was relatively high end in 1993).


I'm saying that when given choice between absolutely killer graphics (and forcing gamers to upgrade; ID-like), or more reasonable requirements, Blizzard seems to prefer the later. And it surely is a factor in Blizzard's success.
I remember DooM2 on 486SX 33Mhz. And there were serious slowdowns occasionally, with many monsters on the screen.
Do you remember level 11, 16, 18... ?

Quote:

You're going to try and tell me that H1-3 were good because they had low reqs and H4 was bad because it had high reqs? Seriously now....


I say H3 has good graphics, H4 graphics is still 2D, has another style which made many people upset. (But there are those who like it, too). It's not a benefit, it's just a change. Not exactly better, not exactly worse. But requirements have gone sky-high. Justifiable ?

It certainly was important advantage. I know several people who run H3 on absolutely archaic hardware... used mostly for writing/priting documents. Few girls among them, too. You rarely see girls with latest hardware ;-). You used to be able to take homm basically anywhere.

H4 proves that gfx isn't crucial for strategy game. It has serious gameplay flaws and lacks spirit.
On the other hand, I consider Dominions2 amazing in terms of athmosphere and balance - with 17 unique nations ! The game has such crappy graphics you wouldn't believe it was made after year 2000. Sure it's not nearly as popular as homm (partially because of killer compexity) but somehow it sells well enough. Well enough for Dominions3 to be on the way.

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Ellderon
Ellderon


Adventuring Hero
Lightbringer
posted December 13, 2004 12:28 PM

You forgot one advantage of 3D. UNITS UP TO SCALE!!!!

Finally Titans and Dragons will be HUGE! .. Not to mention castle towers and walls!
____________
elen síla lúmenn' omentielvo

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darkmaster
darkmaster


Hired Hero
posted December 24, 2004 06:28 PM

agree. 3d is the way too go. You actually have computers that can draw realtime really intense gfx. Comps with 20 000 cpu's wich simulate nuclear explotions and stuff.

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Vlaad
Vlaad


Admirable
Legendary Hero
ghost of the past
posted January 05, 2005 06:21 PM
Edited By: Vlaad on 5 Jan 2005

Looking at the new Settlers screenshots (haven't tried the game myself - no dragons, y'know ), would Ubisoft's Heroes V look like... this?!


____________

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guitarguy
guitarguy


Responsible
Supreme Hero
Rockoon.
posted January 05, 2005 08:22 PM

I sense another unfortunate abandonment of our original illustrious HOMM1-3 roots. In my opinion, such a continued departure would be like a whole new game concept entirely. Hence my thoughts directed towards HOMM4. I'm pondering the consequences of 3D for this fifth game; I'm hoping here will be not so much so that it changes the face of everything we grew up knowing. Lastly, however they make this fifth game, they'd better launch a trial version so everyone knows what to expect for their buck (unlike a certain #4 I happen to know of).

-guitarguy

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Vlaad
Vlaad


Admirable
Legendary Hero
ghost of the past
posted January 08, 2005 01:23 PM
Edited By: Vlaad on 8 Jan 2005

also 3d

Age of Empires III has been announced recently. Looks different but nice. Pics can be seen here.
____________

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TheRealDeal
TheRealDeal


Promising
Supreme Hero
Foobum* of Justice!
posted January 08, 2005 03:13 PM

I would like if H5 had graphics that resembled World of Warcraft Graphics, tis a lonely mans dream.
____________
*We all know the that Foobum is the class of all that is Cake.

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gerdash
gerdash


Responsible
Famous Hero
from the Animated Peace
posted March 20, 2005 12:22 PM
Edited by alcibiades at 16:29, 06 Jul 2009.

re: Vlaad

as far as i remember, they are planning to have creature stacks.

so, if they mean that a stack is represented by 1 creature and a number, homm5 definitely won't look like this (will look much less crowdy or more compact, depends on the point of view you look at it).



Moderator's note:This topic has been closed, as it refers to an older version of the game. To discuss Heroes 3, please go to Library Of Enlightenment, to discuss Heroes 4, please go to War Room Of Axeoth, to discuss Heroes 5, go to Temple Of Ashan.

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