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kicferk
Known Hero
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posted March 26, 2015 09:23 PM |
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Edited by kicferk at 08:55, 27 Mar 2015.
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It might have been difficult to spot, but in my comment I decided to show that 2 statements implied by you are wrong:
JotunLogi said:
almost all factions can be played the same way with minor changes in style or chosen path
JotunLogi said:
The most visible differences are at sieges- here I mean Tower (mines), Fortress (walls and moat) and Stronghold (cyclops)
Statement implied: almost all factions can be played the same way with minor changes in style or chosen path effectively, and that the biggest differences are as you stated.
JotunLogi said:
I always try do develope my economy and build capitol as fast as possible. Usually it works quite well
Statement implied: Capitol rush is an overall successful strategy.
I feel I did a good job at both, and unless you point out why it's not true, I will still think so. I should also note that I don't really care for small parts of your statements that you got right if you got the whole thing wrong. Meaning your mention of necromancers being different in argument about all towns being almost the same is not something that satisfies me, baceuse I don't agree that they are.
JotunLogi said:
as far as I know, Dungeon requires a lot of all resources
It does if you want to build it up fully. But you don't need to build it up fully to play effectively: indeed the games even on XL maps often end without black or even red dragons built.
JotunLogi said:
I have not written that it should be palyed same way against human and Ai
No, but saying that "Usually it works quite well" implies that it works against humans too. Moreover, I don't see why you would write about a strategy that is useless against good players in here without saying that it won't work agains them...
JotunLogi said:
I have written USUALLY try to build as fast capitol- cause I like that. This is strategic game and there are different ways to play it. In all games I prefer to develope economy first. Have not written that this is winning strategy, the best or so. Writing that there is only one strategy the game should be played is just silly. If there is strategy msot effective- sure, in all games. But playing differently does not mean that it is wrong
And that goes to the very beginning. You wrote that all factions can be played very similarly. And I, foolishly assumed that you meant 'played effectively'. Why did I think so? Because if you really want to, you can choose ANY strategy, and force your faction to follow it. You can say "I will win using only lvl 1 creatures", and then claim that the races are sooo similar. But unless you reach the limits of what you can achieve with a faction, such claim seems to be really silly, or really ignorant.
And playing the losing strategy is fine, even spreading losing strategy is fine, but suggesting it is not a losing strategy is a bit too much.
JotunLogi said:
opinion is always right, it is personal thought or concern about sth.
Opinion is always right in one place: the mind of its holder. But there is another place: reality, in which the opinion is not validated by the fact that it is opinion.
JotunLogi said:
I strongly recommend to read more carefuly and make better conclusions before connecting someone with the term ''ígnorance''
I read what you wrote quite carefully, and I concluded(quite rightly) that you are ignorant of online competetive multiplayer. Which includes counterexamples to many of your statements.
And in case you didn't notice, your first comment is somewhat mean to the game I like(in addition to being wrong). It might have been a contributing factor to me being mean...
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JotunLogi
Known Hero
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posted March 27, 2015 01:06 AM |
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1.'Stronghold is just more rushy, Necro focuses on gaining skeletons and SO, but there are such mechanics as in HoMM 4, HoMM 5 or even M&M: Heroes 6 that would really differ much factions'
- first of all, the word "so" implies that this is one example and there are more-
- you have completely skipped the second part were HoMM 3 is compared with other games in the series- and really none of our arguments do not deny this statement that is rather important part of it
2.’ No, but saying that "Usually it works quite well" implies that it works against humans too. Moreover, I don't see why you would write about a strategy that is useless against good players in here without saying that it won't work agains them...’
I have nowhere written that I play against humans in my first post- you have just assumed that. And, as it is written in 'Silence of the lambs'- when you assume, you make ass out of u and me. It is quite popular
Also how does it ‘imply’? There is no logical connection behind it without making some additional statements.
3. ‘And that goes to the very beginning. You wrote that all factions can be played very similarly. And I, foolishly assumed that you meant 'played effectively'. Why did I think so? Because if you really want to, you can choose ANY strategy, and force your faction to follow it. You can say "I will win using only lvl 1 creatures", and then claim that the races are sooo similar. But unless you reach the limits of what you can achieve with a faction, such claim seems to be really silly, or really ignorant.‘
- and then you have written that the best strategy is to rush units- yes, this statements proves that I was wrong and that playing each faction is sooo different  and maybe skills like logistics, pathfinding or diplomacy are not good for everyone or some spells like slow, haste and so- the thing is that that they are good for everyone
- b) I have written that 'ALMOST all factions can be played the same way with minor changes in style or chosen path'- so eeither you have skipped it accidentally (but in the first part you have included this word- what is being implied) or you are just ignorant and have problems with basic logics cause 'ALMOST all factions can be played the same way with minor changes in style or chosen path' absolutely does not equal 'all factions can be played very similarly'
4. 'And playing the losing strategy is fine, even spreading losing strategy is fine, but suggesting it is not a losing strategy is a bit too much'- use it against AI on the most of the larger maps, if you will be losing with it- your problem
5.'Statement implied: almost all factions can be played the same way with minor changes in style or chosen path effectively, and that the biggest differences are as you stated.'
- I have written most visible, not the biggest
6.'Statement implied: Capitol rush is an overall successful strategy.'
- the word USUALLY implies that it does not overall successful and the word 'try; implies that if I can afford such a luxury- you extremely exaggerate everything
- once again, you have assumed thatI have written about multi where there is no such statement
7. 'I should also note that I don't really care for small parts of your statements that you got right if you got the whole thing wrong. Meaning your mention of necromancers being different in argument about all towns being almost the same is not something that satisfies me, baceuse I don't agree that they are.'
- cause undead factor is reallly small one, indeed it is
8. (about Dungeon)- 'It does if you want to build it up fully. But you don't need to build it up fully to play effectively: indeed the games even on XL maps often end without black or even red dragons built.'
- same can be written about other factions. tower without giants is decent, castle,rampart, everyone... and still, even without dragons, dungeon requires a lot of resources and still is one of most expensive factions.
9. 'No, but saying that "Usually it works quite well" implies that it works against humans too. Moreover, I don't see why you would write about a strategy that is useless against good players in here without saying that it won't work agains them...'
- no, it does not implies so
- I have written it here cause here is the section about tactics that we use. I do not any reason why single player should be skipped - it is as important as multiplayer and or me it is much more interesting part
10. 'Opinion is always right in one place: the mind of its holder. But there is another place: reality, in which the opinion is not validated by the fact that it is opinion.'
- opinion refers to emotional aspects and thoughts about something so it cannot be wrong- t can be weird, stupid or so. The facts can be wrong, the implicationsm results- but not opinions it is all about personal element
11. I read what you wrote quite carefully, and I concluded(quite rightly) that you are ignorant of online competetive multiplayer. Which includes counterexamples to many of your statements.
- no, you have not and you are skppin some words or vital parts all the time
- I do not play multiplayer and my post was nat about it so once again you are wrong
- and I can accuse you of being ignorant of single player game and largely overestimating AI if you still will state that strategies that I use against are ineffective- the fun with ai is that there are many ways to play the game and win quite often while having fun
12. About the multiplayer- even assuming that my post was about multi (and again- nth is written that it is about it), you have automatically reacted as I would have played with strong guys or so. Not all players are pro or experienced so even capitol rush may be effective against some people that are just casual players and do not how how to perfectly manage it. And even with assuming that I have just written that I usually am successful with that so it means only that I had luck against someone with whom i played. You have massively exaggerated ths statement
13. 'I do not think that Homm 3 is extremely complicated game in terms of tactics and strategy- ALMOST ALL factions CAN be played the same way with MINOR CHANGES in style or chosen path'
- ypu have written that the best strategy is to build town hall and rush units- so there are no major changes in gameplay. Which unit you build first and so- those are rather minor
- most secondary skills and spells are good for all factions, there are no major changes in style
- in terms of tactics- generally all the tactics do not differ that much- especiallly when compared to other heroes games that have ben later produced. Simply because of lack of actions abilities and also the fact that some unit are lacking any ability. You guard your shooters the same way, chose same layout, act at sieges same way and so- were are those huge changes in stlye (and have in mnd other Heroes games... and other games as well)
14.'And in case you didn't notice, your first comment is somewhat mean to the game I like(in addition to being wrong). It might have been a contributing factor to me being mean...'
- it is not mean, I have not written it is shallow, just not extremely complicated
- I also like it but it does not mean it is perfect and that I cannot write anything bad about it
- in case you didn't noticed, by insulting me and bashing just because I have opinion with which do not agree you have acted as d ck
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Maurice
Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
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posted March 27, 2015 01:10 AM |
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Edited by Maurice at 01:12, 27 Mar 2015.
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Games vs. other Human players play quite differently from games vs. the AI. There's no doubt about that, so naturally, your tactic will be different depending on that.
As for the specifics on when to aim for Capitol, that depends on the map - mostly the direct treasure area. If it's rather poor, or heavily guarded (tough creatures, large numbers, etc ...), you might want to aim for Capitol somewhat sooner. If it's rich, you might forego it for a while longer.
Basically, building the Capitol does two things: it puts you behind on building creature dwellings by 1 turn and it costs 10k Gold, which takes 5 days to play even vs. not building it. The difference is +2k Gold per turn. Now, you can only spend your Gold once and it's unlikely that you're going to have it sit useless in your bank (then you might as well build the Capitol, after all), so you're going to invest it on something - dwellings and/or recruitment. Those investments should help you generate extra income, by defeating guards, either on the map or inside hoards.
Eventually, however, the immediate yield is going to drop as you're depleting the immediate treasure area. There will be turns where your income from the adventure map will drop because there's simply nothing to collect; pretty much everything is one-time only, whether it's a collectable resource or a treasure hoard. The trick is finding the sweet spot where it becomes more advantageous to build that Capitol, versus investing it in yet more creatures or dwellings and such. Going blind on getting that +2k Gold per turn (and lacking creatures to progress on the map effectively) is just about as bad as going blind on getting only creatures and dwellings (and running dry as your economy can't sustain that drain). And, as an added complexity, distributing the money from a Treasure Chest will yield experience - not shooting for Capitol will likely mean you're skipping the experience boost in favor of the Gold yield.
And I guess that sweet spot varies not only with the richness of the map, but also with the map size and the opposition (Human and/or AI). Skilled players will have a better grasp of where that sweet spot is.
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kicferk
Known Hero
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posted March 27, 2015 09:29 AM |
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I will skip a lot of points to which I feel I already answered.
To point 7. Usually = in most cases. Overall = in most cases. I would like you to point out a difference between them.
To point 8. Tower needs to find a pile of every resource to get magi if you play on 160%, and on 200% it becomes really painful. While Dungeon if pretty playable with its starting army and special buildings, which don't require much resources.
You admit that you lack experience with online multiplayer, so you should be a bit more careful with writing stuff about effective strategies.
To point 9. Unless you specify (and in your first comment you forgot about doing so), I can't assume it does not extend to humans. In scope of word 'usually' is even a wild possbility of it working against humans and not working against AI.
To point 10. Your opinion about opinions being always true is wrong. If you said 'I believe that ...' then the statement is probably right, as it depends on your mind alone. But if you say 'the world is...' then the truth of that is dependant about the world. Meaning your opinion can be true for you, but not for the rest of us.
And yes, opinions can be wrong. My opinion about baloons is that they have negative mass. How do you call it with your definition? Stupid? I call it wrong.
To point 11. Oh, great that you seem to know better than I do what I did. I will give you some clue then. If you write something and don't specify where you think it applies, the rest of us don't know where you want it applied. It's as simple as that.
Besides, if a strategy works against human, it will work against AI. Playing effectively vs humand differs very little from playing effectively vs AI.
To point 14. Go right ahead, quote where I insulted you and I will either appologize or explain why I won't. Prove me to be the bad guy bashing you for your opinon. If you don't, then I feel you just think I insult you because I don't agree with your opinion.
And as a gesture of good will, I will cut my sarcasm a bit in the last part, feel free to cut your (perceived by me) arrogance.
To point 13. I didn't write that. I was more specific(as you should be). I said that it's on 200% and that it's 'probably' the best way. Usually you don't bother with town hall at all.
Besides, I feel that your point from original post changed quite dramatically.
JotunLogi said:
I do not think that Homm 3 is extremely complicated game in terms of tactics and strategy- almost all factions can be played the same way with minor changes in style or chosen path
Stronghold is just more rushy, Necro focuses on gaining skeletons and so, but there are such mechanics as in HoMM 4, HoMM 5 or even M&M: Heroes 6 that would really differ much factions.
The most visible differences are at sieges- here I mean Tower (mines), Fortress (walls and moat) and Stronghold (cyclops)
I always try to play on highest difficulty level and usually play on larger maps (most common XL) so I always try do develope my economy and build capitol as fast as possible. Usually it works quite well
It seems to me that you don't give any justification or examples to the first claim in here. It's more like an assertion. You mention necro and stronghold, but again, only to discard them. Then you say that you prefer going for capitol.
Do you now say all factions can be played effectively in the same way, because you want to go for units with each? It seems to me that it was not even suggested in your first post.
I do agree with your statement, but for vastly different reasons. Here they are: after week 2 in most cases units you can get from creature banks massively outweight your town production. Also, control spells are the most useful ones, and dictate the gameplay once you have them.
My problem is, you don't seem to go for that explanation, which is acceptable, you go for several vague arguments from ignorance. Although, to your credit, you give some arguments in your last post.
Most spells that are useful are useful to all. Yes, but not all factions have the same access to those spells. Or to magic schools that are needed to use them efectively. An overlord will never cast expert prayer(unless he has witch hut or scholar with water). Fortress will not get berserk from its mage guild. And so on.
About similar strategy in all battles, it's more or less true, but not fully. All factions have differences in combat. Conflux has no shooters for a long time(when rushing for creatures ofc), Inferno from week 2 utilizes pit lord speciality, with some towns(dungeon, necro) you want to protect your stack of lvl1 creatures more than protecting shooters.
All in all, I think if you try really hard, you can say the game is the same for all factions. But there is quite big counter to that. If the game is almost the same for all factions, why then do the players that played online for years still have a part of game where they chose their towns with strict rules? Why don't they say: "ok, it's all the same, we can both play castle"? It seems that huge similarities would imply that to happen, wouldn't they? My explanation is that the game after 2-3 weeks is the same, but for first 2-3 weeks is quite different for all factions. What is your explanation for that?
Cheers
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JotunLogi
Known Hero
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posted March 27, 2015 05:55 PM |
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As you wish, let's start
1. About insulting- ingorant means stupid, so connecting me with this word is abusive- and you have even called me directly ignorant. Wow, that is the way to start a discussion.
Besides, overusing sarcams and treating someone as a person who knows nth is, to put it lightly, not polite- especially that those are not used as tool in discussion but to simply bash other person
'And as a gesture of good will, I will cut my sarcasm a bit in the last part, feel free to cut your (perceived by me) arrogance.'
- I have written just about what I think about the game and my style of the game. If I am arrogant, look at Yourself- You acting like you would know everything and other perople who think otherwse were worse.
2. Usually = often, Overall = generally.
I would like you to point out a difference between them, cause they are not synonms. Especially that the first one I have used about my games, not genreal strategy that should be used by others. And 'usually' refers to frequency, 'overall' will not substitute it
3. 'My opinion about baloons is that they have negative mass. How do you call it with your definition? Stupid? I call it wrong'
- This is not an opinion, that is a statement about fact or real thing- and it can be tested as "true" or "false". Opinion refers to emotions, feelings, abstract things that are not measured as true or false- if someone states that sth is beauty, than it is for him beasty. False can be only if he says sth that is opposite
4. 'To point 8. Tower needs to find a pile of every resource to get magi if you play on 160%, and on 200% it becomes really painful. While Dungeon if pretty playable with its starting army and special buildings, which don't require much resources.'
- I agree but the problem is that , aside tower that is known for being the most expensicve, it is quite easy do develope wth other armies quite strong army early. Rampart can have quickly ents, castle swordmen, stronghold and fortress also develope quickly and are effective
5. 'You admit that you lack experience with online multiplayer, so you should be a bit more careful with writing stuff about effective strategies.'
- this is topic about tactics in general, no multiplayer, you can check first pages. Everoyne can share about his gameplay- even using obvious tactics, how he plays and so- there is no difference in multi and single player section in this topic
6. Besides, as far as I know, almost all multiplayer maps are played on small or medium maps. Larger maps are not suitable for that. So for me it is suprise that You have associated it with multi in spite of the fact that ther is nth written about it
7. 'To point 9. Unless you specify (and in your first comment you forgot about doing so), I can't assume it does not extend to humans. In scope of word 'usually' is even a wild possbility of it working against humans and not working against AI.'
- at the same time if it is not written, then do not connect it with something- there is nth written about multi. You have assumed that it s about multi.
8. 'To point 11. Oh, great that you seem to know better than I do what I did.'
- same I can wwrite about what You have written about my experience and successes. Without knowing anything You just bashend and have written tht everything is wrong as You would know everything
9. 'I will give you some clue then. If you write something and don't specify where you think it applies, the rest of us don't know where you want it applied. It's as simple as that.'
-I can give You same clue. And another one- do not give clues that You do not understand
10. Where I have written that I know better what You have done?
11. Besides, if a strategy works against human, it will work against AI. Playing effectively vs humand differs very little from playing effectively vs AI.
- yes and no. Yes, cause generally humans are better than AI and use other tactics. No- cause when someone plays with AI only then this person would try to have a hige disadvantage from the start- just to have fun, so player must act in different ways. AI has much bigger armies, better location and so. When playing multi, it is not possible and players have common conditions
12. 'To point 13. I didn't write that. I was more specific(as you should be). I said that it's on 200% and that it's 'probably' the best way. Usually you don't bother with town hall at all.'
- why should I be more specific? I have written clearly what I think and give in few words why- enough for short post
13. 'Besides, I feel that your point from original post changed quite dramatically.'
- ??? You write that i do not give arguments and that I am not meticulous enough but You give no prove for that my point has changed. Give me ny later statement that supports this and compare it with my first post in this topic
14. 'It seems to me that you don't give any justification or examples to the first claim in here. It's more like an assertion. You mention necro and stronghold, but again, only to discard them. Then you say that you prefer going for capitol.'
- and 'so' implies that there are mor exapmles so it is clear that it was mean to give general idea and why in few words. Besides, those two examples that I have given are good- I doubt that anyone will deny that Stronghold is more rushy or that Necro focuses on necromancy
15. 'Do you now say all factions can be played effectively in the same way, because you want to go for units with each? It seems to me that it was not even suggested in your first post.'
- wow, really? I have just written that I like to go as fast as possible (key word) for capitol, not have written that other tactics are worse, not effective
16. 'My problem is, you don't seem to go for that explanation, which is acceptable, you go for several vague arguments from ignorance. Although, to your credit, you give some arguments in your last post.'
- no, Your problem is that there are given arguments that You skipping- this comparsion to other Heroes games and this statement about Necro and Stronghold. And still You have not written about mechanics that would really differ factions. The reason I have included sieges in the post is also argument that supports my idea- t tower's moat is quite distinctive mechanics and forces player to act in different way due to mines nature. Cyclops- additional catapult while attacking, fortress- double moat and stronger walls. But in cases of all other factions or siege mechanics- sieges are almost the same and can be winned the same way.
17. 'Most spells that are useful are useful to all. Yes, but not all factions have the same access to those spells. Or to magic schools that are needed to use them efectively. An overlord will never cast expert prayer(unless he has witch hut or scholar with water). Fortress will not get berserk from its mage guild. And so on. '
- so most spells are used by all and there are some differences.spells are not available first to qcuire or master- but it can be quite easy overcome by many mechanics. Also each hero can be acquired by other faction. Same with skills- most of them are must, some are just forbidden. Really major difference here is Necropolis due to its undead character (necromancy- leadership). Compare it to HoMM 5 and its skill system and faction's ability
18. 'If the game is almost the same for all factions, why then do the players that played online for years still have a part of game where they chose their towns with strict rules? Why don't they say: "ok, it's all the same, we can both play castle"? '
- there are several reasons- conflux and necro are generally forbidden cause are op and game is not balanced, saame goes with heroes that have specialization in logistics- and the list goes on, those are the most significant
- some just for fun cause it is boring to play same factions; not pro but casual players. All my friends do so, just to differ the game
'About similar strategy in all battles, it's more or less true, but not fully. All factions have differences in combat. Conflux has no shooters for a long time(when rushing for creatures ofc), Inferno from week 2 utilizes pit lord speciality, with some towns(dungeon, necro) you want to protect your stack of lvl1 creatures more than protecting shooters.
All in all, I think if you try really hard, you can say the game is the same for all factions. But there is quite big counter to that. If the game is almost the same for all factions, why then do the players that played online for years still have a part of game where they chose their towns with strict rules? Why don't they say: "ok, it's all the same, we can both play castle"? It seems that huge similarities would imply that to happen, wouldn't they? My explanation is that the game after 2-3 weeks is the same, but for first 2-3 weeks is quite different for all factions. What is your explanation for that? '
- I have not written that they are played the same. agian I remind that ALMOST and about those minor changes- and those minor changes are mostly so due to bit different requirement, lineup and town tree developement
But somehow similary they are being developed cause economically in terms of income are the same (differences here are minor), same skills (minor differences, not as huge as in HoMM 4 or HoMM 5). There are many units without any specialty or ability, just pure stats. And even when they have sth- it is jsut some single target thing or protection (most elementals are the same way). Most armeis differs in lineups in combination of shooters, flyers and walkers and by stats. The feeling is not the same and tactics that are used also- but I have never feeled that shooter should be guarded in different way or that this unit is sth more than just a shooter.
In early game it quickly is all about developement that is allowed by mechanics and the quantity that can be purchased- but, in case of fortress, gnolls are nth mroe than stats, same reptillion. Later it gest more itneresting but all factions has this problem- some units are boring, some deifferences get to stats (ogre s bad spellcaster and his ability is a bit forced, goblins and uruks are stats, thunderbig has change to cast lightning- borng ablity cause it means some extra damage, no additional tactics). In most cases the best is same boring unit deployment, most shooters just shoot (lich and magog are better here), most units are treated same way. Also rather same spells are used if possible.
Together those units keep diffeerent feeling and each town hasd different character- but in HoMM 4 and HoMM 5 each town has its different theme and characteristics that are in some Homm 3 armies barely visible (Necro is exception due to its undead nature and necromancy; castle- raw power, nth special or deep in this army, tower- strong, a bit more knowledge; Dungeon- varied tactics due to unit abilities, stronghold- rush, fortress- defence and so- but nth really distinctively underlined). What is more, n HoMM 4 and HoMM 5 almost al units has nice specials and abilities that make them fun to play. There are more reasons but I simply do not have time to review each spell, unit, tactics.
That is why for me homm 3 is in my opinion is not that very comlicated- cause there are not that many mechanics that would really differ all the castles and that there are too many plain units. Game is balanced- to the point that even rushy armies here are quite strong lategame cause game is balanced. To master it and play it at extremely good level skill and tactiful depth s required- I do not deny that, but it is not comlicated to understand it and still play it on decent level. In mullti player has to addapt to meta and learn most efficient strategies. I woud say that more visble difference in playing style is in HoMM 2 due to its very unbalanced nature.
Best
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kicferk
Known Hero
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posted March 27, 2015 06:43 PM |
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Just to the thing I promised to answer.
Ignorant is not stupid. I am ignorant to many things, and I will be for life. I have no idea how to speak mandarin. Therefore I am ignorant of mandarin.
You have shown certain lack of knowledge in your statements(especially about mulit...). Take for instance, size of maps played. XL is the most common type of maps, with L being right after, at least in the competetive multiplayer I'm aware of. One of the most popular templates, Jebus Cross, is unplayable if it's smaller than L.
Therefore you are ignorant about online multiplayer. You may find it not nice that I pointed it out, but it has as much insult in it as saying "you are just 1,5 meters tall".
Sarcasm is a very important tool, and I only used it when confronting unjustified or wrong claims, so exactly where it fits.
And I didn't treat you as if you knew nothing, only as if you didn't know some things that I do. It kind of goes back to 'ignorance' point. And I didn't use them to bash you, only your claims.
About me being arrogant, sure I may seem so, but I give detailed argumentation to back that up.
Which brings me to the important part, your conclusion. I would love to see the argumentation you put here in the first place. I still don't agree with your conclusion, but at least I know why you think what you think. I would say your assessment is overly simplifying, but you have all rights to stay where you are with it.
Peace
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted March 27, 2015 06:44 PM |
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As I see it the purpose of the thread was to keep most valuable strategies UP-TO-DATE. As the topic was started by Frank and during ToH golden age, it is commonly considered that multiplayer is aimed for, as in single you basically don't need wise strategies, AI having flaws elephant size in its coding.
So while some strategies at the start of the thread may seem obvious by now, keep in mind that back in time they were golden words as being discovered through practicing. Another aspect is that maps pattern changed over years, following the majority tastes. Frank himself considered that Capitol strategy is not bad on some maps, because Frank was multimaps player so he had some experience with.
Today people play those templates only, and their pattern indeed allows players from average to expert to break AI neutrals without strong armies and while not being bothered by the other player. From this point of view, building Capitol is a waste of time, as you can get same money from monsters around, + the experience. But back in time, a lot of maps had no guards between players, they could meet day 3 as earliest, have a lot of skirmish between spell casters, thus creatures were less important than money to recruit heroes.
IMO is not wrong to affirm Capitol rush is OK strategy. Sometimes you may need money more than creatures. But Capitol IS bad strategy when play actual templates, and probably this is what Kicferk means.
Also you two look like going on a very long fight, so maybe open a new thread then bleed each other to death.
____________
Era II mods and utilities
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JotunLogi
Known Hero
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posted March 27, 2015 06:51 PM |
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No need to worry, i think that both of us have finished- discussion is over- and sorry for offtop and not needed tension
Peace and good luck to everyone 
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fred79
Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
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posted March 28, 2015 04:27 AM |
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Edited by fred79 at 04:30, 28 Mar 2015.
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on the 1st attempt(this is the battle i was referring to before), the AI cast "dispel" and removed all of the spells that "armor of the damned" cast. from there, the rest was an uphill battle, due to their incredibly high defense. huge losses, shown here:
on the 2nd attempt, the AI didn't cast "dispel" after "armor of the damned" cast. and from there, i surrounded my liches and ghosts, kept using "defend" instead of attacking, and cast "berserk" on the behemoths, rocs, and wolf riders every turn. they destroyed themselves; and the ghosts took the brunt of their range attacks(their numbers were still better than before), before i moved in to attack with force. result:
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woj
Hired Hero
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posted April 09, 2015 02:30 AM |
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Edited by woj at 02:44, 09 Apr 2015.
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bloodsucker said:
I heard people saying it is better not to hurry up in choosing all the important skills first time they appear and instead get expert in the ones you already have.
This would make heroes like Tazar and Crag Hack better then Gundula and Orrin, because they already have advanced on their specialty when I always tought the oposite: heroes with few skills tend to get carpy ones very easily.
A few minutes ago I was watching a video from someone playing and I noticed something that has happened to me too (when I'm playing multiplayer, otherwise I simply save and load) that is: if you don't have all the slots fullfill is risky to pick a scholar and you end up lefting it to a secundary hero.
So, I would like to ask your opinions: is it worst not to have expert earth soon because you picked too many other skills or to have to choose between two unwanted skills and lose all the increments and spells you can get from the scholars?
This is interesting to me. Lately I was playing an original M map where there was not so many places to level my main hero fast(as in some maps designed from multi). I played Bron, got offered air magic(got haste in guild) at lvl3(ok unlikely), then at lvl7 I had it already on expert. It caught my friend off guard and it allowed me to win the battle with minor losses which decided the outcome.
Seems logical that on maps where you can level up to 15+ lvl more easily it would be wiser to pick essential skills as soon as they pop up, cause likely you might not get the chance to pick them again. On the other hand having either water or earth on expert fast is a big advantage.. especially when playing swamp, maybe some expert player can say wheter he would pick a new skill like offense/logistics or get expert earth/water first
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bloodsucker
Legendary Hero
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posted April 13, 2015 05:16 PM |
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woj said:
maybe some expert player can say wheter he would pick a new skill like offense/logistics or get expert earth/water first
Thanks, but you gave a quite bad example. Expert multiplayers will always pick offense or logistics over water while in singleplayer (specially in hard custom maps) you may not even want Offense cause you have to rely on spells to win the battle so Intelligence and magic schols are way more important. How often did you had an battle almost lost but then you summon some earth elementals, kick ass, blind the last stack and resurrect everything before ending the battle or simply Berserk everyone and let them do the work for you like in Fred's example? (That doesn't belong here, that's WoG where strategies have to adapt to customized EA habilities like acquired immunities and so on. Approse, is that the Romanian Town faction? I want to download it but I couldn't find a working link, can you send me yours? Thanks)
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HeroesWorld
Tavern Dweller
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posted June 16, 2015 10:03 AM |
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fred79 said:
on the 1st attempt(this is the battle i was referring to before), the AI cast "dispel" and removed all of the spells that "armor of the damned" cast. from there, the rest was an uphill battle, due to their incredibly high defense. huge losses, shown here:
on the 2nd attempt, the AI didn't cast "dispel" after "armor of the damned" cast. and from there, i surrounded my liches and ghosts, kept using "defend" instead of attacking, and cast "berserk" on the behemoths, rocs, and wolf riders every turn. they destroyed themselves; and the ghosts took the brunt of their range attacks(their numbers were still better than before), before i moved in to attack with force. result:
Hi - how do you take this creaures? zombies from HommII
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swinm
Hired Hero
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posted June 16, 2015 01:37 PM |
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Edited by swinm at 13:42, 16 Jun 2015.
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Why is my hero crying 'We will loose this battle???'
I have a question. Why does my hero think that we are gonna loose??? In this map (heroes3) there are 8 same dragon fights, 2 done with this army before, against the same amount...
Is there any formula for it?
[url=http://kephost.com/image/F1IA]BATTLE WITH PICTURE AND HERO SCREEN[/url]
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Kicferk
Known Hero
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posted June 16, 2015 02:26 PM |
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I don't know exact formula but it is likely that AI does not take into account spells, artifacts, etc.
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woj
Hired Hero
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posted June 25, 2015 09:43 AM |
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Edited by woj at 09:45, 25 Jun 2015.
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How many magic schools experienced players want to have 1,2, or 3?
with commonly taken logistics, offense, armorer, wisdom, earth magic, tactics there are two slots left. Would you take water and air or something else for remaining slots?
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Kicferk
Known Hero
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posted June 25, 2015 09:49 AM |
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Edited by Kicferk at 09:50, 25 Jun 2015.
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One of other slots is usually taken for air magic. Haste rules.
Also, players from russian league heroesworld play with DD/fly allowed, but dd restricted to 1 use per day. And you can use it 2 times per day if it's XL+U and you have expert air magic.
Apart from air magic, there is no skill that is very desirable in every game. On Jebus pathfinding is very good, resistance/scouting are fine. If you play HotA then archery is very very good. And if you have necromancer then of course necromancy 
Cheers
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Macron1
Supreme Hero
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posted June 25, 2015 09:58 AM |
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woj said:
How many magic schools experienced players want to have 1,2, or 3?
with commonly taken logistics, offense, armorer, wisdom, earth magic, tactics there are two slots left. Would you take water and air or something else for remaining slots?
I mostly try to take Air Magic and Earth Magic.
Fire Magic only, if i have creatures with fire immunity in my hometowns.
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swinm
Hired Hero
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posted June 25, 2015 11:53 AM |
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Edited by swinm at 11:54, 25 Jun 2015.
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woj said:
How many magic schools experienced players want to have 1,2, or 3?
with commonly taken logistics, offense, armorer, wisdom, earth magic, tactics there are two slots left. Would you take water and air or something else for remaining slots?
Navigation, if map with water
Archery, if main castle has 2 or more shooters (Castle, Tower...)
or Resistance, if you have $hit magic towns (Fortress, Stronghold)
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Kicferk
Known Hero
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posted June 25, 2015 12:08 PM |
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Wait what?
Archery with castle? I almost never see that one, and for good reasons: monks are not good and archers don't survive till late game.
Also, there is no connection between crap magic in town and taking resistance. One, you usually get magic from pandora boxes / relics / guilds in nother towns you captured anyway. Two, you take resistance to prevent opponent from screwing you up, like if you expect him to have AotD and red orb, not to compensate for bad magic you have.
Also, I see no reason to write that in red. Do you feel your answer is so much better that you have to make it stick out? Or do you suggest that other answers are bad and yor is one and only good and so everyonen should read yours? In any case, I don't think it's working.
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swinm
Hired Hero
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posted June 25, 2015 04:36 PM |
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Edited by swinm at 16:37, 25 Jun 2015.
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Kicferk said:
Wait what?
Archery with castle? I almost never see that one, and for good reasons: monks are not good and archers don't survive till late game.
etc etc
Hmm...
What about the Valeska and Ingham heroes?
These heroes +
Archery skill +
Angel's resurrection
===}
if you are good player, they will survive until late game. Maybe expert water magic is useful too.
I understand you all don't like Resistance but R is still much better than this Tactics, Learning, Eagle Eye etc..
(I just like red colour)
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